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  1. #1
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    Where are your meth nozzles?

    I've been experimenting a long time with nozzle location for a more ideal homogeneous meth/water to air mixture. I know you guys have your nozzles in different places, I'm just trying to get an idea of where I should go next.

    I've tried the following with the aid of silicone bung(s). All tests were performed with two 1.0mm Aquamist nozzles.

    1) One in CP, one in IC out coupler.
    2) One in CP, one in CP lower coupler (up pipe to CP).
    3) Both in IC outlet. One on aft side, one 45* to driver side.
    4) Both in IC outlet. One on aft side, one 45* to passenger side.
    5) Both in CP, pre DV valves about 40* apart.

    Everyone says that further upstream is best. Unfortunately, all circumstances except setup 5, resulted in most of the meth going to Bank 1, and you can hear the engine running rough at WOT. They all looked like the following:

    Click here to enlarge

    Trims are great up until approx 4300 RPM where the divergence occurs. I'm thinking that the atomization is great until that point, where the meth streams begin to shear too severely afterward due to the narrow 2.5" coupling , essentially running the meth spray against the coupler instead of into the airstream. I think I calculated the air velocity to be ~42 ft/s at wot, using 2 mg/stk injector flow at 12.0 AFR. Seems plausible, but I've had a few beers.

    I saw Dz put both nozzles in the CP lower coupler, about 30* apart and 4" apart upstream, I'm probably going to try that next. Not sure what else to do. Any ideas are welcome.

    edit: I should say that I've flow tested the system many times. 600 mL/min is normal at 12V with a 15psi in-line check valve near the nozzles. Flow is even between the two nozzles.

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    I Have both mine on the charge pipe about 2 inches apart.
    Click here to enlarge

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    How do trims look off meth?

    Mine are in the up plastic pipe toward the top. I have a pic somewhere.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    I saw Dz put both nozzles in the CP lower coupler, about 30* apart and 4" apart upstream, I'm probably going to try that next.
    When you do it would be nice to see this same style post. Good stuff Tzu.

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    @Tzu

    Really enjoy technical posts like this. I'm kinda happy I lucked out and my CP is setup like #5.

    I'd +rep if I could.

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    @JoshBoody , got new injectors about a month or so ago, trims are 3-4% seperate off meth @ 13psi. Keeping boost low while testing until octane distribution is sorted. All I know is that cyl 1 is happy, 4-6 are likely raging. I've also seen your setup, but I figured with the same cross sectional area, further upstream would be more beneficial. My data does not support that. I'm wasting a lot of $$ on couplers lol.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    When you do it would be nice to see this same style post. Good stuff Tzu.
    I have plenty of data, but it's all garbage. I'd rather show what worked in the end, and what I did to get there.

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    It would be very interesting to see how the timing corrections look across both banks. Good stuff TZU.

    My setup is one 1mm AM and one .9mm AM both in the CP. I will be adding another 1mm nozzle in the IC up pipe to CP coupling soon.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    It would be very interesting to see how the timing corrections look across both banks.
    I think it would be more heart-wrenching.

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    Also, can you post the other logs showing their influences on IATs? I'm curious as to whether you may have gathered some data on the "wet bulb affect" discussion that surfaces every now and then in relation to meth and the TMAP sensor.
    Click here to enlarge
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    it is strange that your trims change so drastically. So you see a big difference in various locations... in CP compared with upstream... can you post the comparison logs? I know not so easy to check LTFT without Cobb but maybe reset LTFT through INPA, or you could watch LTFT through INPA (I believe)... would have to do this on map0 at WOT and you'll be watching for discrepancy between banks. With my experience, I'd be surprised if this was solely meth distribution.

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    Not sure why LTFT would have such a drastic impact given that the no-meth pull right before the log in the original post had very close trims, at the same boost. It seems like most of the charge air is going to Bank 1. I have no problems resetting them though, I'll try that this weekend with another nozzle relocate.

    I'll grab the other logs later on. The logs with both the nozzles in the IC outlet didn't have IATs since I was looking at LP fuel, but I'll try and grab a log this weekend with IATs. It won't tell too much though since conditions were very different on the days I was experimenting.

    Any other ideas? Is this only happening to me? I think airflow is just too fast in the narrower charge sections, hence why spraying into lower velocity air in the IC endtanks would be more ideal...No space with the helix V1 dammit.

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    Yeah wasn't thinking and why I asked about off-meth last nigh, it will give some insight... discard my last suggestion.

    FYI: I flow tested around 1000ml/min. Why using a check valve if have FAV and with these different nozzle location experiments, did CV to nozzle distance change?

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    Very interesting data. I'm trying to think of a way to simulate the manifold flow dynamics on the bench where we could actually measure effective fluid flow to each runner but the simple methods gloss over important details while the complicated methods sound too involved. If your test is repeatable though I'll do a similar test to verify your results. I also have pre-turbo injection in place I can switch on/off for comparison.
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    Josh, How are you getting 1000 ml/min? Are you using two 1.0mm nozzles? Including line losses and FAV restriction, I'd be surprised if you got more than 800 ml/min. Even lord voldermort advertises the kit at 650 ml/min...? CV distance is ~3" from the nozzles. The FAV is in the power steering resevoir location and the 1) drainage was irritating me, 2) "filling" the drained line would cause a false spike seen by the flow meter and I'd get an overflow fault. This was dependant on the length of 4mm line from FAV to nozzles.

    Terry, it's certainly repeatable. I have 5-6 logs of the trims since my car is currently set up in setup #4. It's always been repeatable on my car, but it seems like others who have relocated nozzles are having better experiences than me. Would be interesting to see more logs from other guys. Everyone elses' trims seem better than mine regardless of where they put their nozzles.

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    Below are logs from awhile ago when I changed my nozzle location from CP (stock) to IC up pipe pictured.
    1st is off-meth
    2nd on-meth (nozzles in CP)
    3rd on-meth (nozzles upstream)
    Logs taken days apart.

    The difference in our setups seems to be nozzle mounting and you are using a CV. Potentially with my nozzle location and using stock (narrower) CP air velocity is faster. I will also check my LTFT, as I think I logged this recently.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

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    Yeah 2 1mm nozzles... I forgot that I turned up the pressure screw, so I could be injecting higher pressure. I've always meant to check it, but never have. I thought vishnu advertised 800ml/min. Anyway, volume doesn't really matter in this troubleshooting.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Yeah 2 1mm nozzles... I forgot that I turned up the pressure screw, so I could be injecting higher pressure. I've always meant to check it, but never have. I thought vishnu advertised 800ml/min. Anyway, volume doesn't really matter in this troubleshooting.
    It could if you reach some saturation point.
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  18. #18
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    I had a few moments so I grabbed a short meth log using a single CM14 nozzle in the chargepipe per the photo. Preturbo injection disabled. With the JB4 you set FUD=12 to lock bank1 fuel trims under LowFuelPressure and bank2 under fuel trims. So in this short test the results are opposite the OP test. Lower fuel trims in bank2 than in bank1 possibly indicating more meth flow to bank2. But an overall trim variance of ~5% which doesn't seem like much. I tried a pull with the preturbo injection on but maxed out fuel trims negative so was useless. I'll have to adjust the scalar and retest that, along with a non-meth run, to see if they match up off-meth.

    Generally speaking since cyl5 is the one that always seems to break more meth flow to the rear cylinders sounds more like a feature than a bug... Click here to enlarge
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 06-13-2013 at 01:11 PM. Reason: typo
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    I ran two 1mm nozzles on the cp. When i moved them down to the fmic outlet i found that while iat suppression was still good and it helped trims stay closer to each other on average that I needed to add another nozzle up in the charge pipe to possibly offset the difference in meth volume lost in splatter on the charge pipe bends. With this setup i had no significant deviation in trims as logged by Cobb's AP.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Setup 1:
    Click here to enlarge

    Setup 2:
    Click here to enlarge

    Setup 5:
    Click here to enlarge

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    And off meth, before log in OP:

    Click here to enlarge

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    Still some separation off meth? No bias on the rear o2 sensors in place right? Any chance they mixed up the bank labeling in the software? Just off the cuff in a high airflow situation I'd expect the rear bank to get more meth from a single spray point along the outside of the chargepipe. But it would be interested to simulate on the bench or stick a camera in there during a WOT run to see for sure.
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    I agree that 5% is likely insignificant, but I'd kill for 5% at this point. I'm closer to 15-20% on meth.

    Terry, last log has fuel biasing, should be same boost as the log in the OP. I wouldn't be surprised if the banks were mislabeled, a couple of parameters are.

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    Ok to throw some more data up... haven't reviewed yet, initially seems my trims may not track so evenly when you account LTFT. LT actually does a pretty good job over time, so much depends on how you WOT... for example switching on/off meth maps. I typically always run meth.

    This is my base cobb log and then my typical performance tune couple days later.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

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    Tzu, in your off meth log looks like they start to spread... so maybe more a result of LTFT, or at least combination.

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