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  1. #1
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    NSA monitoring everything? 3 billion phone calls a day? Apple giving them data?

    It's not when Big Brother gets here it's how far they will go. NSA has all the dirt on anyone. If they want to destroy you, they can and will.

    SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — With every phone call they make and every Web excursion they take, people are leaving a digital trail of revealing data that can be tracked by profit-seeking companies and terrorist-hunting government officials.

    The revelations that the National Security Agency is perusing millions of U.S. customer phone records at Verizon Communications and snooping on the digital communications stored by nine major Internet services illustrate how aggressively personal data is being collected and analyzed.

    Verizon is handing over so-called metadata, excerpts from millions of U.S. customer records, to the NSA under an order issued by the secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, according to a report in the British newspaper The Guardian. The report was confirmed Thursday by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., who chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee.

    Former NSA employee William Binney told the Associated Press that he estimates the agency collects records on 3 billion phone calls each day.

    The NSA and FBI appear to be casting an even wider net under a clandestine program code-named "PRISM" that came to light in a story posted late Thursday by The Washington Post. PRISM gives the U.S. government access to email, documents, audio, video, photographs and other data that people entrust to some of the world's best known companies, according to The Washington Post. The newspaper said it reviewed a confidential roster of companies and services participating in PRISM. The companies included AOL Inc., Apple Inc., Facebook Inc., Google Inc., Microsoft Corp., Yahoo Inc., Skype, YouTube and Paltalk.


    http://news.yahoo.com/big-data-turni...071009613.html
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    I love the people in Congress who are acting surprised about this. They claimed the weren't "briefed". Did they not hear about the Patriot Act?

    American lives lost to terrorism are tragic and unjust, there is no arguing that. I just want to know how many liberties people are willing to give up to reduce the number of terrorist attacks. You will never reduce the life lost to terrorism to zero without first giving up ALL your freedom. In reality, the number of US citizens that die from terrorism is truly a tiny number compared to the overall number of US citizens. The Department of State reports 10 US citizens died form terrorism in 2012. As of July 4th, 2012, the Census Bureau reports the population of the US as 314 million people. So as a percent, that is 0.000003%.


    People usually talk about the price of freedom in terms of lives lost in military conflicts. Maybe this needs revised to include citizens as well.


    No matter what your beliefs, some people will always hate you. They may even try to kill you. The question you need to ask yourself is are you willing to lock yourself in a safe room for your entire life to ensure you cannot be killed, allowing the establishment to keep a watchful eye on you for protection, or are you going to take the small risk of dying at the hand of a such a hateful group so that you may be free.


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    Terrorism is only the banner being used to justify this crap. This is really about powerful interests in DC and in industry keeping tabs on everything. They couldn't care less about you and me. Politicians care about their political adversaries, and the people who throw money at the politicians (corporations, bankers, etc) care about what their competition is up to, how to expose their dirty laundry, and stealing their next big thing.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    Terrorism is only the banner being used to justify this crap.
    This.

    The system is so $#@!ed...
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    I see both sides of the coin. Yes - "terrorism" is a blanket statement used to justify anything - it's getting a bit ridiculous. The thing is in regard to the telecommunications/internet sniffing - this has been going on forever. Look into ECHELON... This is just political fluff. Don't even let it bother you. As long as you aren't planning on blowing up a building over a phone, you are good. Click here to enlarge

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    Those willing to give up liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both -Ben Franklin.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Those willing to give up liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both -Ben Franklin.
    tried to rep but couldn't...

    another one from Franklin:

    In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, — if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people, if well administered; and I believe, farther, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    tried to rep but couldn't...

    another one from Franklin:

    In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, — if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people, if well administered; and I believe, farther, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other.
    I completely agree with both of you, however the problem is it seems like we all get upset about these things and complain, but nothing ever changes. I am not saying there should be a coup against the government (hmm... maybe? - kidding of course) - but, that's really the only way things like this will change. The problem is - what happens then? Someone else will replace the idiots in power.

    I think the first problem is that there needs to be a true democratic process involved with everything. In other words - you MUST vote, you are able to vote online, and every single bill/law/change is voted for by the people, not behind closed doors. For things like ECHELON, after the benefits outweigh the downsides, and the people don't want it - then it won't happen.

    The second - and largest/main problem (imo) - is that we are pitted up against each other by the media and the process itself. In other words, all you hear about is "the liberals did this" or the "conservatives did this" - and it's a constant battle. Nothing ever gets done at the level of government, and worse - the general public chooses a side, and fights to the death for their party - but for what?! It's a joke. Both sides could have someting you believe in - but you can't digress without someone calling you out as "moving to the other side". My point is - there needs to be no "sides" or no "groups" - no parties, etc. It causes nothing but problems - we spend time worrying about the "other side" instead of functioning for the good of all. It's insane.

    Everyone most people respect warned us about this issue - it's a terrible thing to have a "forced" party system. I don't think a party system is bad, but if the choices are made for you (in other words, two main unchanging parties) - then what's the point of "freedom"?

    "The greatest good we can do our country is to heal its party
    divisions and make them one people." --Thomas Jefferson to John
    Dickinson, 1801. -- And Thomas Jefferson was HUGELY pro-party system. He once said that he wouldn't go to heaven if it didn't have a party.

    John Adams said:
    There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.

    George Washington agreed, saying in his farewell presidential speech:

    The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.

    And of course our buddy Ben Franklin:

    There are two passions which have a powerful influence on the affairs of men. These are ambition and avarice; the love of power, and the love of money. ...Place before the eyes of such men a post of honor, that shall be at the same time a place of profit, and they will move heaven and earth to obtain it. The vast number of such places ...renders the British government so tempestuous...[and is the true source] of all those factions which are perpetually dividing the nation [and] distracting its councils...

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    And don't forget the library system.

    This message will NOT self-destruct in 5 seconds.

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    Interesting article - a timeline of the events of the NSA spying: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

    The site is getting hit hard, so it takes a while to load.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hifiguy@gaphix Click here to enlarge
    And don't forget the library system.

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    I don't get it. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I completely agree with both of you, however the problem is it seems like we all get upset about these things and complain, but nothing ever changes. I am not saying there should be a coup against the government (hmm... maybe? - kidding of course) - but, that's really the only way things like this will change. The problem is - what happens then? Someone else will replace the idiots in power.

    I think the first problem is that there needs to be a true democratic process involved with everything. In other words - you MUST vote, you are able to vote online, and every single bill/law/change is voted for by the people, not behind closed doors. For things like ECHELON, after the benefits outweigh the downsides, and the people don't want it - then it won't happen.

    The second - and largest/main problem (imo) - is that we are pitted up against each other by the media and the process itself. In other words, all you hear about is "the liberals did this" or the "conservatives did this" - and it's a constant battle. Nothing ever gets done at the level of government, and worse - the general public chooses a side, and fights to the death for their party - but for what?! It's a joke. Both sides could have someting you believe in - but you can't digress without someone calling you out as "moving to the other side". My point is - there needs to be no "sides" or no "groups" - no parties, etc. It causes nothing but problems - we spend time worrying about the "other side" instead of functioning for the good of all. It's insane.

    Everyone most people respect warned us about this issue - it's a terrible thing to have a "forced" party system. I don't think a party system is bad, but if the choices are made for you (in other words, two main unchanging parties) - then what's the point of "freedom"?

    "The greatest good we can do our country is to heal its party
    divisions and make them one people." --Thomas Jefferson to John
    Dickinson, 1801. -- And Thomas Jefferson was HUGELY pro-party system. He once said that he wouldn't go to heaven if it didn't have a party.

    John Adams said:
    There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.

    George Washington agreed, saying in his farewell presidential speech:

    The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.

    And of course our buddy Ben Franklin:

    There are two passions which have a powerful influence on the affairs of men. These are ambition and avarice; the love of power, and the love of money. ...Place before the eyes of such men a post of honor, that shall be at the same time a place of profit, and they will move heaven and earth to obtain it. The vast number of such places ...renders the British government so tempestuous...[and is the true source] of all those factions which are perpetually dividing the nation [and] distracting its councils...
    Great post, and great last quote, repped. I agree let us vote on bills/laws. It should be so simple in this day and age.

    Like going to war, let us vote on it, AND if you vote Yes for going to a war you can be drafted if needed. I am tired of old men starting wars and young men fighting them.

    Voting on if we should or should not launch the nation into war and to kill other humans should be a decision for the masses not a President who can declare war for 60 days and no one can stop him. Once you put the Military into action it isn't quick to slow them down...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I don't get it. Click here to enlarge
    Let's just say that if individuals check out certain materials from the library, their account will get flagged by the FBI.
    All those library disclaimers about your info being confidential doesn't exclude certain government agencies.

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    This has been going on for many years now. It's nothing new, every single party has hands in it, and they want to keep their hands in it as well. They call this: "protecting the American people" and not "spying on American people." Not only your wireless information is being sifted through but also anything you do on your computer as well. These people have got this down to a science. And it's true, they can use this information to put you away for a very very long time, but I'm pretty sure that overflowing prison system has something to do with this.

    Just imagine how many drug deals have to go through because they choose not go after these people, all the white collar crime they can stop but they wont, but hey, they sure as hell are protecting us very well right? I mean what year was the last terrorist attack on U.S. soil? Oh wait a minute....
    Click here to enlarge

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    I think the first problem is that there needs to be a true democratic process involved with everything. In other words - you MUST vote, you are able to vote online, and every single bill/law/change is voted for by the people, not behind closed doors. For things like ECHELON, after the benefits outweigh the downsides, and the people don't want it - then it won't happen.
    the percentage of people that vote are low... lower than they should be for sure.. but I don't need countless morons/uneducated people/careless people voting on something they know nothing about at all either... and voting online is just another invite for corruption.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
    the percentage of people that vote are low... lower than they should be for sure.. but I don't need countless morons/uneducated people/careless people voting on something they know nothing about at all either... and voting online is just another invite for corruption.
    Meh, I don't know. I mean - yes, I agree that the number of people that vote is low. I also believe though that if it were made very easy (online as example) - a LOT more people would do it. I also don't want morons/uneducated/careless people voting - but to be honest, I think they should be allowed to. The popular vote wins - and hopefully the popular vote is the logical/educated vote. Because political members would have no party - there would be no reason for them to go around saying vote for 210, because what is being voted for is OUR choice, not theirs. This is a dream - it's not real - I just wish it was is all. Click here to enlarge

    Regarding the corruption - I disagree. I am a computer scientist, and I can think of ways to make this system be pretty unbreakable - or at least easy to identify possible tamper. First off, the source code would be open to everyone to ensure it's accuracy - ... point is, there are ways to secure the process itself.

    As an example of one way this could work: just like your SSN card that everyone gets, they would get a "voting ID" - these two numbers would be a composite login ID, and a secondary authentication measure (after login, txt message/email/etc.) - would confirm it's you. Yes, a few people might get away with stealing an identity - but this is petty. We know who has died (SSN) - so, the crap that happened in Florida wouldn't fly. It just makes too much sense, that's why it hasn't happened IMO... Instead we have voting booths at the public library - and we trust these machines, and trust the people on video carrying the yellow boxes with cheap padlocks out to the car - and trust the place that the votes are counted - etc... It's ridiculous how many places things can go wrong. I feel it would be MUCH more secure online. Again, look what happened in Florida.

    It's only corrupt if some outside party creates this process/software - and all the logic is not released. That would be bad - that's not what I mean though.

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    And I will admit - I did not vote for the last Presidential Election. I didn't do so for one reason. My girlfriend went earlier in the day, and spent THREE hours waiting in line to vote. Term after term we see this happen in Chicago and other big cities - so people know how ridiculous the process is. I personally think it's a big joke - especially when there still is voter fraud. Make people sit in a long line to use some antiquated method of voting? IDK - we have the technology and the people to do this right. There is no reason it's not done except for BS reason. It's funny when I read about these firms building online voting systems - and then we see them in the news get cracked/hacked as an example of how it won't work. It's comical. We trust banks to develop software to keep track of our money - but won't allow anyone to create a system to allow us to vote.

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    So, do you think I can get out of my contract with Verizon because of this? lol
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by folgrz Click here to enlarge
    So, do you think I can get out of my contract with Verizon because of this? lol
    LOL that's funny

    inline good points, I see where you are coming from...
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    easy fix, make voting not anonymous. once they started hiding the votes, theres no way to see the truth.

    2. who the $#@! works for these people thinking this is ok?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I think the first problem is that there needs to be a true democratic process involved with everything. In other words - you MUST vote, you are able to vote online, and every single bill/law/change is voted for by the people, not behind closed doors. For things like ECHELON, after the benefits outweigh the downsides, and the people don't want it - then it won't happen.
    It's this simple. I don't need a representative, there aren't huge distances the pony express needs to traverse to get messages to people. I would much prefer to vote directly than have someone do it in my name with my "best intentions" supposedly at heart.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    Why in the hell do thy need to monitor everything US citizens say, speak, read, or write?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    Meh, I don't know. I mean - yes, I agree that the number of people that vote is low. I also believe though that if it were made very easy (online as example) - a LOT more people would do it. I also don't want morons/uneducated/careless people voting - but to be honest, I think they should be allowed to. The popular vote wins - and hopefully the popular vote is the logical/educated vote. Because political members would have no party - there would be no reason for them to go around saying vote for 210, because what is being voted for is OUR choice, not theirs. This is a dream - it's not real - I just wish it was is all
    Balance voting power based on contribution. Why does a bum have the same vote power as someone employing thousands generating millions?
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