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  1. #26
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    Well if you can't understand what I am talking about you clearly don't understand tuning. I can't educate you completely so I will agree to disagree. As I mentioned each tuner does it their own way. But their own method goes into their generic tune. Their tune is a product of their thoughts on how to tune. So I am saying if that same tuner did a "custom" tune, than they are not going to randomly stop using the logic that they used in their general tunes and thus given their general tunes already push the stock system with pump gas to the maximum, there is nothing further any given tuner can do to outtune their own generic tune on pump gas. Also assuming its tuning to last as long and be safe. Of course they could get really aggressive and the engine won't last but this is not realistic as nobody would buy that. Have you ever logged data sticky? You sound like you have not because if you had you will see that even ignition advance with a target of 34 almost never hits the 34 even in cool weather with 94-95 octane. So you could set the timing target at 40 but it will never hit that because it can't even hit 34. Same with every other parameter. You can "tune" for something if you will by setting aggressive maps but if you leave the safety systems in place the engine simply won't be able to hit the aggressive targets and thus the generic tunes are already pushing the limits and have targets that are very hard to hit. $#@! even the stock 32 degrees timing advance is almost never hit by pump gas let alone a tune. That is why using 95 octane plus gives hp on a car without a tune as the oem software leaves room for advance that is only achieved with 95 plus octane ( or really cold weather and 92-93 octane.

    If this does not make sense to you than its clearly a lack of understanding. And who cares if you were into m3 tunes 4 years ago, you don't think people still don't care or interested in them? That is like saying why bother caring about an e46 tune or new product because that was so 12 years ago..just makes no sense

    On the upside I really appreciate how you allow open arguement and debate rather than banning people left and right. Atleast I will debate or argue on content. Right or wrong.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
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    Well if you can't understand what I am talking about you clearly don't understand tuning. I can't educate you completely so I will agree to disagree.
    Oh no, please educate me. I really don't like this tone considering how much I see you have to learn on this platform.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    As I mentioned each tuner does it their own way. But their own method goes into their generic tune. Their tune is a product of their thoughts on how to tune. So I am saying if that same tuner did a "custom" tune, than they are not going to randomly stop using the logic that they used in their general tunes and thus given their general tunes already push the stock system with pump gas to the maximum, there is nothing further any given tuner can do to outtune their own generic tune on pump gas.
    A lot of text, little substance. There is a difference between the tunes as you state and the tuners so right there you admit the tunes are all different. Not sure what you are discussing then.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    Also assuming its tuning to last as long and be safe. Of course they could get really aggressive and the engine won't last but this is not realistic as nobody would buy that. Have you ever logged data sticky?
    I haven't logged my car I prefer dyno runs and 1/4 mile runs. Have you run yours before / after a tune? Do you have any slips? Is your car even tuned?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    You sound like you have not because if you had you will see that even ignition advance with a target of 34 almost never hits the 34 even in cool weather with 94-95 octane. So you could set the timing target at 40 but it will never hit that because it can't even hit 34. Same with every other parameter. You can "tune" for something if you will by setting aggressive maps but if you leave the safety systems in place the engine simply won't be able to hit the aggressive targets and thus the generic tunes are already pushing the limits and have targets that are very hard to hit. $#@! even the stock 32 degrees timing advance is almost never hit by pump gas let alone a tune. That is why using 95 octane plus gives hp on a car without a tune as the oem software leaves room for advance that is only achieved with 95 plus octane ( or really cold weather and 92-93 octane.
    I have absolutely no idea what ignition advance was. What I do know is my car picked up additional wheel horsepower/torque with additional custom dyno tuning over time. You can ask my tuner if you like. At no point did my tuner ever say any random canned tune was fine as they are all equal. They aren't.

    You do know early ESS tunes LOST power on the motor right? You know the tuning evolved so it isn't something as simple as flash anything on and everyone ends up in the same place. M3's are making more power now than ever with tunes, it's been an evolution.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    If this does not make sense to you than its clearly a lack of understanding. And who cares if you were into m3 tunes 4 years ago,
    It may show I have a bit more experience with the topic at hand.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    On the upside I really appreciate how you allow open arguement and debate rather than banning people left and right. Atleast I will debate or argue on content. Right or wrong.
    Of course that is what this place is here for. Some people confuse open debate with being able to type anything. I'm glad you understand the difference.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  3. #28
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    why don't you ask your tuning buddies to post on this thread and end this one way or the other. If I am dead wrong than I will admit it and move on. But why not let the expert speak instead of bashing on someone

  4. #29
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    I don't even think this is valid right now..
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  5. #30
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    Close it. The logic train has left the building.

  6. #31
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    Please continue. This could get good. Lolz will be had.

  7. #32
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    Sticky I don't get it. You want a board with discussion yet when someone confronts a topic that goes against what people think they get nasty and so do you. Why could there not be some discussion about target based ECU's which we have and how it works and conversation could resolve this and prove me wrong or show you I am right? The point is information and every response on this thread has no substance. This is the board you are spending your life creating? A place for people to bash anyone who does not have the maintstream opinion. Ridiculous and a board like this certainly makes for a dull experience. Same with n54 people and how angry they got instead of discussing facts or opinions in a constructive way. Not sure what the goals for you are but can't see this board really being a big hit. I feel any intelligent comment has had no responses showing any understanding. Why doesnt everyone on this thread reply to target based ecu tuning and than explain to me why I am wrong? I am happy to learn and be wrong yet all people do is bash and say a custom tune is better. Why is it better in a target based ecu system with a set octane gas (street mixture which we all run-yes a custom race tune for 100 octanen will obviously make more power),. Why doesn't someone explain to me what changes in a custom tune vs their regular tunes when the target tables are used by the ecu? It just does not make sense to me. Older ECU's of course custom was the best but ecu's are so advanced that with the ionic knock tech and ability to control invidividual cylinders with multiple variables, the ECU is always hunting and trying to provide the max output. With a tune you give the ecu a higher goal to hit but it still often cannot get there due to heat or load etc which are sensitive on this car to pulling timing. So what variables change in a custom tune vs a regular tune for the m3? I am ready to learn and would liike to know

  8. #33
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    Please provide empirical evidence. Sadly, you have only provided a few busy posts with lots of words.

    Conjecture and dialect cannot be quantified nor repeated.

  9. #34
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    Empircal evidence? Learn what target based tuning is and that is the evidence. Again a completely useless response with no information to provide on how custom tuning even works or is better? If someone can explain to me the following-Timing is already near maxed and only upped 1-2 degrees with available tunes. With data logs and 95 octane, I still do not regularly hit the full 34 degrees. So there is no further room to advance spark unless you go to race fuel which I agreed would benefit from a custom tune.

    Adjusting the Vanos has a relatively small range for available adjustment that actually produces more power. You can't radically change the vanos without a different cam and other components. Again the off the shelf tunes push this pretty much to as much benefit as possible.

    All of these keep the safey nets intact which is the entire foundation of target based ECU's. Same with the A/F ratio. Given we don't run in open loop under WOT, the a/f can be adjusted and it is with the tunes but there is no more rich or lean that a custom tune could be made that makes any more power while still being safe.

    So please tell me what that leaves that a custom tune can see more power?

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wannbm5 Click here to enlarge
    Sticky I don't get it. You want a board with discussion yet when someone confronts a topic that goes against what people think they get nasty and so do you. Why could there not be some discussion about target based ECU's which we have and how it works and conversation could resolve this and prove me wrong or show you I am right? The point is information and every response on this thread has no substance. This is the board you are spending your life creating? A place for people to bash anyone who does not have the maintstream opinion. Ridiculous and a board like this certainly makes for a dull experience. Same with n54 people and how angry they got instead of discussing facts or opinions in a constructive way. Not sure what the goals for you are but can't see this board really being a big hit. I feel any intelligent comment has had no responses showing any understanding. Why doesnt everyone on this thread reply to target based ecu tuning and than explain to me why I am wrong? I am happy to learn and be wrong yet all people do is bash and say a custom tune is better. Why is it better in a target based ecu system with a set octane gas (street mixture which we all run-yes a custom race tune for 100 octanen will obviously make more power),. Why doesn't someone explain to me what changes in a custom tune vs their regular tunes when the target tables are used by the ecu? It just does not make sense to me. Older ECU's of course custom was the best but ecu's are so advanced that with the ionic knock tech and ability to control invidividual cylinders with multiple variables, the ECU is always hunting and trying to provide the max output. With a tune you give the ecu a higher goal to hit but it still often cannot get there due to heat or load etc which are sensitive on this car to pulling timing. So what variables change in a custom tune vs a regular tune for the m3? I am ready to learn and would liike to know
    I really don't think anyone is being nasty if anything you have been.

    Would it kill you to use some decent spacing by the way?

    It's not that your "opinion" is the issue it's that you are presenting it as fact without anything to back it up

    You feel your comments are intelligent but the only reason you are posting right now is because I helped you out.

    A custom tune IS better. That's not bashing. Call up any tuner and ask if they all are the same for the S65. They aren't.

    Ask @BrenM3 he will explain it to you.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  11. #36
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Custom tuning......
    The only people who can answer that are those who do it.
    I will be back later..

  12. #37
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    It's kind of a sad topic.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  13. #38
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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Custom tuning vs Canned Tune.

    Let us first look at the basic ignition and fuel target's:

    Click here to enlarge

    Well... of course as you can all imagine it all depends on the strategy of a canned tune vs the one used on a custom tune.

    Let's start with the easiest part first - AFR. It's target driven and if the conditions are favourable you will hit the exact target set. The stock setup aims for around 13.5 AFR upto 5000rpm and then slowly making it's way down to around 12.5 AFR at the rpm limiter. As you can imagine the slightly rich 12.5 AFR at higher rpm is there purely for safety. Remember the stock setup does have 0.5 Bar of additional back pressure over and above normal due to the very restrictive emissions primary CAT's.
    Altering AFR is not going to give you big power ever. It's worth 5hp at best and go too lean (13.2) and yes you will get excellent dyno numbers but forget about having an engine that will perform consistently as the combustion temperatures rise with excessive high rpm/high load use.
    AFR and custom tuning... it's really not that custom being target driven and while anyone can make a great dyno it tells you very little about how the engine will perform in real world conditions.

    Ignition Timing:
    Also target driven and you can see clearly it's quite radical. There are a very clever guys out there who suggest that the ignition timing reduction after 4500rpm is there for safety. Study the correlation between valve overlap and ignition timing please.
    Raising the ignition targets on an engine actually achieving the stock ignition targets is not going to yield much of a power gain. Yes, if the engine is making say target minus 4 degrees then raising the target will temporarily raise the achieved ignition to around stock levels resulting in amazing power gains. However, what happens when the condition are right, the DME stops pulling timing and you end up achieving the stupid 37 degrees some tuners target for. You got it! KNOCK.
    DME pulls max timing out amongst many other factors. You end up with a less powerful engine.
    I am sure many of you have seen situations where cars after adaptions make less power than stock.
    Custom tuning ignition timing is really not going to help much but will make lots of headlines on a dyno.

    Throttle opening maps - pointless to custom map. They will open.

    Vanos - same thing, why would one engine react to a different valve overlap to another?? Yes, if the exhaust system is radically different is can make a big difference. However, a developed tune for that specific setup has already dealt with this.

    Custom tuning is a con unless we are dealing with engines which are really quite different to each other.
    Why would one engine want to run much more than the stock ignition targets to another?
    Why would one engine want to run a leaner AFR than another?

    When we for example are dealing with a setup we have never seen before (first time we ever tuned a supercharger) then that's a development process and 'custom' tuning is taking place. Once it's done, tested on a range of different cars and the gains or results are the same then we have a 'canned' tune. It works. It's the result of lots of development.

    Anyone can come along and so called custom tune your DME but what if their strategy is worse and you lose power?
    So many people have tried to custom tune S54's for example and made way less power than our developed calibration.

    Give me an S65 with no primary CATS. I can set the minimum ignition = target ignition, change the valve overlap and set the AFR to make amazing power on a dyno. The engine will be under great risk of damage in the short term.... think within 5,000 miles if you are lucky. Is this a custom tune?? No, it's a dumb ass tune.

    The above variables are just the main maps which have an effect on engine power. There are other compensating factors that can be switched off to give more 'consistent' power. Like EGT and IAT compensation for example. Turn them off or even set them to positive and you will hit the ignition targets all of the time.

    Any tuner who thinks he is getting more power because of their strategy and calling it 'custom' is really talking nonsense.
    Concentrate on talking about your strategy.....

    I have been asked to dyno tune so many S54's and S62's in the USA it's unreal. We are talking in excess of 70 from my database in the last 18 months. Just for the hell of it I try to use different VANOS profiles and slightly higher ingnition targets. Does it really beat what I have already done in development? No.
    Yes, with older cars with varying fuel pressure we can get some extra power from different fuel maps.

    At the end of the day, a good tuner will only custom tune when they are dealing with a setup which they have never dealt with before. Example - Akrapovic exhaust with it's horrendous torque dip below 3500rpm.

    I have seen some tuners custom tune and not realise that they are working around a problem... like a worn MAF sensor...
    Not clever. What happens with the MAF dies and you change for a new one. You are WAY WAY out on your calibration now.

    There is a level of custom tuning that can be done from engine to engine but the factors which need to be datalogged are not really understood by many tuners. Such as combustion quality. However combustion quality can change for many reasons. I'm not going to talk too much about this, let's have some tuners on here talking about what combustion quality actually means and how it's determined by the DME.

    Lastly... custom tuning is NOT disconnecting the 02 sensors and then connecting them again on a dyno. It's related to the above paragraph....

    There is so much cheating and manipulation of the car itself going on that if people really knew... they would be disgusted.

    The classic one is using the lowest output pre tune vs the highest. There can be upto 15rwhp on a car with primary decat without touching it at all if you start with a very high inlet temperature. All depends on what ignition the DME decides to apply amongst many other physical factors.

    Let me get my dynojet in with the datalink module and then we will show you how much we can BS you. Not using the Dyno Dynamics for this as it cannot export .drf files and showing some of the variables is quite difficult.

  14. #39
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    Oh snap!

    I just got evolveducated!
    2002 E46 M3 6MT | Jet Black . Black Nappa | My GermanBoost Build Thread
    2009 E90 M3 DCT | Melbourne Red . Speed Cloth

  15. #40
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    Thank you for the wealth of valuable knowledge that was just shared -- Def a buyer beware with "custom tunes" and if it translates into reliable/real street power
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  16. #41
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    The main thing learned is the quality of your tuner and tune matters. Not everything is the same.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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