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  1. #1
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    Effects of heat tape on charge pipe and cold side FMIC piping

    After installation of my VRSF 7" FMIC, I noticed that upon throttle dip in, my charge temps would drop several degrees. I figured this was indicative of heat soak through FMIC cold side piping/charge pipe, so I did some data logging at idle to find out.

    I chose idle, in a garaged setting, because I can control nearly every variable rendering charge air temp differences to solely be attributed to the heat tape wrapping. I logged charge air temps vs. ambient every 30 seconds until the charge air temps no longer increased (heat soak). It took a little under an hour.

    Car is a 2007 BMW 335i, brentuned E85 map, VSRF 7" FMIC, BMS DCI, BMS charge pipe, Forge DV's. The experiment was done in a garage (minimal circulating flow) under identical ambient temperatures, both times the car was cooled down for a minimum of 12 hours prior to commencing test. The heat tape was thermo-tec:

    http://www.thermotec.com/products/14...mo-shield.html

    The bottom line is that it does actually make a difference in charge air temps. You can see where the graphs diverge, the point at which radiant heat in the engine bay starts to effect charge air temps. It's not a huge difference, but since I live in the desert, and don't want to run meth I was looking for some easy ways to control temps. The next step for this will be to dive into the DCI vs. Cold Air intake experiments, which I believe a huge percentage of the data out there is either flawed or not applicable to very hot climates.

    Driving data, while much less useful from a variable point of view, suggests to me that charge air temps are more stable. On the down side, cooldown time increased. I didn't bother to post the graphs (I can if requested) but the unwrapped charge pipe cooled 35 degrees in 2 hours, the wrapped cooled 24 degrees in 2 hours.

    Regardless, for $15, get a roll or two and wrap your pipe next time it's out for whatever reason.

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

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    I really appreciate your effort and the data that you gathered. However, to me the driving difference is the difference that matters. Could you post some before and after comparos from driving?
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    After installation of my VRSF 7" FMIC, I noticed that upon throttle dip in, my charge temps would drop several degrees. I figured this was indicative of heat soak through FMIC cold side piping/charge pipe, so I did some data logging at idle to find out.

    I chose idle, in a garaged setting, because I can control nearly every variable rendering charge air temp differences to solely be attributed to the heat tape wrapping. I logged charge air temps vs. ambient every 30 seconds until the charge air temps no longer increased (heat soak). It took a little under an hour.

    Car is a 2007 BMW 335i, brentuned E85 map, VSRF 7" FMIC, BMS DCI, BMS charge pipe, Forge DV's. The experiment was done in a garage (minimal circulating flow) under identical ambient temperatures, both times the car was cooled down for a minimum of 12 hours prior to commencing test. The heat tape was thermo-tec:

    http://www.thermotec.com/products/14...mo-shield.html

    The bottom line is that it does actually make a difference in charge air temps. You can see where the graphs diverge, the point at which radiant heat in the engine bay starts to effect charge air temps. It's not a huge difference, but since I live in the desert, and don't want to run meth I was looking for some easy ways to control temps. The next step for this will be to dive into the DCI vs. Cold Air intake experiments, which I believe a huge percentage of the data out there is either flawed or not applicable to very hot climates.

    Driving data, while much less useful from a variable point of view, suggests to me that charge air temps are more stable. On the down side, cooldown time increased. I didn't bother to post the graphs (I can if requested) but the unwrapped charge pipe cooled 35 degrees in 2 hours, the wrapped cooled 24 degrees in 2 hours.

    Regardless, for $15, get a roll or two and wrap your pipe next time it's out for whatever reason.

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge
    LOVE IT! Ill have to try.

    Living in Florida, i totally agree with your statements on the DCI vs CAI. Would love to see your findings.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    I really appreciate your effort and the data that you gathered. However, to me the driving difference is the difference that matters. Could you post some before and after comparos from driving?
    For sure the driving difference is what matters. Think of this experiment a little differently though, it's not so much for performance increase (we all want that all the time) but to define what issues we're facing with the hot running N54. We can see that, at idle, we're taking in at least 10 degrees at the charge air temp sensor through heat soak. It's likely a lot more, but that's what a simple heat tape wrap changes for us.

    Prior to wrapping, when at steady state on the highway, 80 mph, if I were to ease into the throttle and build maybe 5-10lbs boost, I'd see my charge air temps drop 5-6 degrees. Now, it only drops 1-2 degrees. The results that may be extrapolated from that is, steady state hot engine bay, for a DCI car with (metal -plastic likely is different) wrapped charge pipe, you're going to have charge air temps on average about 3 degrees cooler than an unwrapped car. The downside is that once you DO heat soak the bugger, it'll take longer to cool off. That's not really an issue for me, since we see 130 degree ambient temps on the highway (120 real temp, magnified by black asphalt hence silly high reading), I'm going to heat soak real quick no matter what, and it isn't cooling down any time soon, no matter what.

    Obviously meth is the chemical solution, that's not what this is all about. This is about defining what contributes to what with respect to high charge temps.

    I may make a very simple stainless steel heat shield, affixed to the charge pipe via simple pipe hanger clamps as a next step. More likely, I'll do some WOT logging at very high temps (heat soaked, ambient at least 100 degrees, preferably 110), then heat tape the bottom of my stock airbox, do the Mr. 5 mod, and re-log.

    I'd also love a simple and inexpensive way to add hood vents to assist in ridding the engine bay of so much heat, but it doesn't look like a simple undertaking.

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    is that temp of the charge pipe itself? or IAT's?

    that's.. well that's a fair bit!

    is that just relecting radiant heat away from the pipe itself?

    would a nice pretty ceramic coat achieve similar results.. or a reflective tape even better again?
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    For sure the driving difference is what matters. Think of this experiment a little differently though, it's not so much for performance increase (we all want that all the time) but to define what issues we're facing with the hot running N54. We can see that, at idle, we're taking in at least 10 degrees at the charge air temp sensor through heat soak. It's likely a lot more, but that's what a simple heat tape wrap changes for us.

    Prior to wrapping, when at steady state on the highway, 80 mph, if I were to ease into the throttle and build maybe 5-10lbs boost, I'd see my charge air temps drop 5-6 degrees. Now, it only drops 1-2 degrees. The results that may be extrapolated from that is, steady state hot engine bay, for a DCI car with (metal -plastic likely is different) wrapped charge pipe, you're going to have charge air temps on average about 3 degrees cooler than an unwrapped car. The downside is that once you DO heat soak the bugger, it'll take longer to cool off. That's not really an issue for me, since we see 130 degree ambient temps on the highway (120 real temp, magnified by black asphalt hence silly high reading), I'm going to heat soak real quick no matter what, and it isn't cooling down any time soon, no matter what.

    Obviously meth is the chemical solution, that's not what this is all about. This is about defining what contributes to what with respect to high charge temps.

    I may make a very simple stainless steel heat shield, affixed to the charge pipe via simple pipe hanger clamps as a next step. More likely, I'll do some WOT logging at very high temps (heat soaked, ambient at least 100 degrees, preferably 110), then heat tape the bottom of my stock airbox, do the Mr. 5 mod, and re-log.

    I'd also love a simple and inexpensive way to add hood vents to assist in ridding the engine bay of so much heat, but it doesn't look like a simple undertaking.
    Excellent points. I guess what I'm gleaming from this is: in a situation like yours where there is no cooler air to absorb the heat from the CP then heat wrapping can provide a noticeable improve.

    By the same token, IF there is cooler air then it may be beneficial to not wrap the piping because it will cool down quicker.
    Click here to enlarge
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  7. #7
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Excellent points. I guess what I'm gleaming from this is: in a situation like yours where there is no cooler air to absorb the heat from the CP then heat wrapping can provide a noticeable improve.

    By the same token, IF there is cooler air then it may be beneficial to not wrap the piping because it will cool down quicker.
    Basically, yes, but I'd question which among us has access to a lot of cooler air for engine bay cooling purposes. I'd definitely say that hood vents would help the situation, to what degree I am unsure.

    In a cooler climate the advantages of the wrapping would still apply (as would the disadvantages), but you'd be less likely to see the very high temps that I see. If 90+ degree days are rare, IMO you really aren't giving up a ton going unwrapped. I'd still do it for the heck of it if you happen to need to take your charge pipe out for something like walnut blasting. It's only a few bucks for the tape and it does help. Sadly, nothing is a game changer. Nothing for $15 anyway.

    Parked outside of the post office, 107 degrees out, I was waiting for my brother and saw my temps reach 174 degrees. This was idling about 20 mins, and it was wrapped! I wouldn't be surprised to see 200 degrees on a really hot day out here (I've seen my ambient temp thermometer hit 132 degrees).

    The FMIC does a good job, but can only work with ambient temps and the higher ambient is, obviously, the less cooling it'll provide given equal air temps at the air filter intake.

    I'm trying to maximize our current designs for hot climates with minimal cost and no meth. Anything I do, meth will only make better, I consider it a separate category which I'm not currently concerned with.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    is that temp of the charge pipe itself? or IAT's?

    that's.. well that's a fair bit!

    is that just relecting radiant heat away from the pipe itself?

    would a nice pretty ceramic coat achieve similar results.. or a reflective tape even better again?
    It's the temps right before the intake manifold. The heat tape just reflects heat away from whatever you wrap with it.

    Ceramic coatings work pretty good, but they're more for insulation purposes than reflection purposes. One friend of mine suggested wrapping the charge pipe in header wrap, then covering that with the heat reflective tape. I'm unwilling to redo it for another possible couple degrees difference of radiant heat absorption.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    It's the temps right before the intake manifold. The heat tape just reflects heat away from whatever you wrap with it.

    Ceramic coatings work pretty good, but they're more for insulation purposes than reflection purposes. One friend of mine suggested wrapping the charge pipe in header wrap, then covering that with the heat reflective tape. I'm unwilling to redo it for another possible couple degrees difference of radiant heat absorption.
    ahh ok cool - we only hit 100+ for a month or so in summer, but it tends to be a really humid heat where i live, down to 75-80 for autumn/spring then down to <60~ in late autumn early winter

    i was thinking - since this IS effective at least while driving hard, going by your findings i might just have to do it too, reflective tape and all (little bits of it tend to be pretty cheap i think?), wrap everything sounds like a good idea to me haha

    if we're mainly talking about keeping radiant heat out... reflective tape would probably be the best? over a ceramic coat OR heat wrap?
    boop

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    Interesting idea. I would think you'd be better served with a reflective heatshield though. BMW went with plastic over aluminum or other metals because OF the heat transfer rate of plastic. It resists heat better and sheds it quicker. So, that's why I would leave the plastic bare, but create a barrier between it and the heat source. That's my opinion anyway.

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    Awesome graph and some great data! Much respect @SCGT great stuff. The wrap makes an appreciable difference.

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    Oh and I would think guys in warmer climates would definitely think hard about doing this.

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    Good stuff actually! Click here to enlarge I've done the same last year on my car. All the charge piping is wrapped from the turbos to the intake manifold. Certainly can't hurt
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mycoupe Click here to enlarge
    Interesting idea. I would think you'd be better served with a reflective heatshield though. BMW went with plastic over aluminum or other metals because OF the heat transfer rate of plastic. It resists heat better and sheds it quicker. So, that's why I would leave the plastic bare, but create a barrier between it and the heat source. That's my opinion anyway.
    My charge pipe is not plastic. It's the BMS one (CP-E) and does not have the same heat retention/shedding properties as one made of plastic, nor the limitation in a hot dry climate that makes plastic/rubber turn to dust rather quickly. Shields are always good though for sure.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Awesome graph and some great data! Much respect @SCGT great stuff. The wrap makes an appreciable difference.
    Thank you. I hope to have decent data that's actually useful for people to look at even if it's just small stuff. I put a lot of effort into minimizing or eliminating variables between the tests. I think real world differences are on the small side and very easy to get useful data (or lack thereof) lost in the multitude of variables typically present in non-laboratory conditions.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Good stuff actually! Click here to enlarge I've done the same last year on my car. All the charge piping is wrapped from the turbos to the intake manifold. Certainly can't hurt
    Very nice. Glad you liked my data.

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    @SCGT, ever get around to your dci / cai comparison?
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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    Nice work, well done man. Any heat you can take out is good IMO, and thermal stuff is always a big concern. Especially in these cars with their hot oil thermostats and other such things, the more cooling the merrier. Makes me wonder how useful hood vents or some form of extraction would be in a car like this, those resting temps got up there. On my old project, hood vents lowered underhood temps 40 degrees in traffic in the summer and made a world of difference for issues like vapor lock and general running hot (car had headers).

    Every degree counts at any point in the system, from intake to combustion. It all has to go somewhere. What doesn't get converted to horsepower and what doesn't get spit out the exhaust has to be handled by the cooling system, and ours is not the most robust by any means.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    @SCGT, ever get around to your dci / cai comparison?
    Hey man,

    Actually I did. I wasn't able to control the ambient temps as well as I wanted for the data to truly be bulletproof, so I hadn't posted anything here yet -in general, I like presenting (or trying to) things that are pretty clear cut with regard to conclusions. And by clear cut, I mean irrefutable. That's just the stubborn part of me though.

    That said, without digging into my files for logs to post, here is what I found:

    1: My version of the Mr.5 intake as compared to the DCI showed almost identical wastegate duty cycles for a 3rd gear pull with ambient within 1 degree and humidity under 10%, the grade was a slight uphill that was repeatable. The Mr.5 version demonstrated statistically insignificant lower duty cycles.

    2: My version of the Mr.5 intake as compared to the DCI showed nearly identical steady state (highway) charge temps. Again, margin of error was not significant. What error there was indicated lower temps, but it was on the order of 1 degree. This is steady state, full operating temp, but the car was not allowed to sit and completely heat soak for this test.

    3: My version of the Mr.5 intake as compared to the DCI showed significantly lower charge temps while engaged in stop & go traffic. The difference varied, of course, as traffic is not really able to be controlled, but on average the DCI charge temps shot up as soon as I was stopped, especially if the car was heat soaked. The Mr.5 version was on the order of 10-20 degrees cooler charge temps with a slower rate increase. My Mr.5 version charge temps were similar to, (but still elevated from) cruising temperatures.

    4: My version of the Mr.5 intake as compared to the DCI demonstrated significantly better off the line performance after heat soaking the engine bay and being stuck in stop & go traffic. What does this mean real world, or rather, how could I tell? By the fact that on a familiar stretch of road, once out of traffic with traction control off, the, ahem, degree of angular misalignment due to excessive acceleration was cause for concern and more importantly, repeatable. Click here to enlarge

    The bottom line is that the Mr.5 breaths better than a DCI but it's not really a big advantage once you're up to speed. I'm not surprised this doesn't show up on the drag strip given launching and how quickly you're filling your engine bay with rushing air. It does exhibit worthwhile performance increases in exceptionally hot climates and in a lot of traffic.

    I think with Terry's new cabin air filter mod, this will change the game slightly but not enough to reverse the outcome. The DCI is by no means a bad choice, but especially in excessively hot climates, the Mr.5 version, provided it is done with 3" tubing and a huge filter, out performs it

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    @SCGT, very thorough. Thank you for taking the time to write that up. Could you provide a few more details?

    1. Are your mods still the same as in the OP?
    2. Same E85 tune from Bren?
    3. What is your boost curve?

    I am curious in the flow characteristics between the DCI and Mr5 CAI at near the edge of what the stock turbos can support.

    Thanks again, this is great information!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    @SCGT, very thorough. Thank you for taking the time to write that up. Could you provide a few more details?

    1. Are your mods still the same as in the OP?
    2. Same E85 tune from Bren?
    3. What is your boost curve?

    I am curious in the flow characteristics between the DCI and Mr5 CAI at near the edge of what the stock turbos can support.

    Thanks again, this is great information!
    1: Mods are the same.
    2: Yes, same tune.
    3: My AZ summer tune is 17.5 psi peak tapered down to about 13 at redline.

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    I have been wanting to do this for some time now, just never got around to doing it. Since I visit the track a lot, and seeing the OP, this may have to be a priority to have done

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    Hey man,


    1: My version of the Mr.5 intake as compared to the DCI showed almost identical wastegate duty cycles for a 3rd gear pull with ambient within 1 degree and humidity under 10%, the grade was a slight uphill that was repeatable. The Mr.5 version demonstrated statistically insignificant lower duty cycles.

    Interesting, there is probably more behind this with the Mr.5 setup concept. I have recently compaired my aFe Stage 2 Elite SI with a DCI setup.

    We used the E30 OTS map from Cobb, and live two cities apart from each other.

    On DCI his WGDC maxed to 66%, and my WGDC maxed to 52%. @E90Company who use to have a DCI setup went with the aFe Stage 2 and noted his WGDC % had decreased also

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    I postulate that with catless downpipes and a more aggressive boost curve the wastegate duty cycle differences will be more significant.

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    Maybe I missed this, but was your Mr. 5 intake drawing air from down in the wheel well or was it from the lower right engine bay, similar to the Helix version?

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    Wheel well with brake duct removed. Also, I fit the largest filter possible in there, plus a little, meaning I had to crush it a bit to get it in place. It's tight. Draws air in through front bumper screen.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Good stuff actually! Click here to enlarge I've done the same last year on my car. All the charge piping is wrapped from the turbos to the intake manifold. Certainly can't hurt
    Hi Dzenno, I was thinking of wrapping my DP's, turbos and headers. Just curious if you noticed a difference in the temp under the hood or if it helped lower them a little. Even though its not to hot here in NorCal I usually have to sit in traffic late in the afternoon and IAT's get up there.

    OP-great info and ill probably wrap my CP when I get my intake valves cleaned next month.

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    Great reviews. Repped. Just ordered some Thermo Shield Click here to enlarge
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

    2007 e92 Mont. Blue 335i | 6MT | COBB Tuned | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Helix FMIC | AA DPs | HKS Exhaust | DCI | Stett CP w/ Forged DVs | KWv2 Coilovers | UUC Sway Bars & SSK | HPF Stg 2 Clutch | HFS-4 | M3 Suspension Bits | DEFIVfab Diff Lockdown Kit | Stoptech Trophy BBK

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