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  1. #26
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    Here are two logs back to back. (zipped Excel files) log 1 - stock fuel system no changes what so ever, log 2 - nothing changed at all from log 1 except bolted on modded pump and rail. No tune changes, no scaler changes nothing. Log 2 HPFP drops below 1000 psi for 5 cells from 4956 to 5239 or 283 RPM and is back up over 1500 by 5764 or just 808 rpm. In log 1 HPFP is under 1000 psi 4790 to 5537 or 777 RPM and NEVER recovers back to 1500 PSI until 6805 or 2015 RPM later and is basically to redline. Terry is now saying STFT are irrelevant, that is not what I was told many times before, but I am not getting into a battle about it. You guys can compare the logs and use the data as you wish. Log 1 from 4000 to 5500 RPM STFT are in single digits and looking ok, right after that from 5511 to 5956 they go from single digits to maxed out at 34 and stay maxed out until 6521 where they quickly recover before redline if my memory serves me this map boost had a slight taper up top. Now Log 2 from 4000-5378 we get one cell with a 10.24 all others are single digits or negative, now at 5383 trims go double digit negative all the way to 7100 redline(DME is pulling fuel out to meet targets if I am understanding what Josh from Cobb told me). In other words, where the stock system was completely falling on its face in terms of HPFP and STFT's the upgrade is crushing it in pressure and the trims remain negative where before they were maxed out. Lets also keep in mind we made 673 WHP no meth on this set up. No codes, no limps, no misfires. I spoke to NJZ, was not sure why he was having issues but his money was refunded NO QUESTIONS ASKED. And the upgrade is $499 not $1300. I give you the choice of sending in your own pumps and rails, but we do recommend using only new parts that you can purchase and send to us. I would have never started offering these if I did not test it on our own car and test it for many hundreds of pulls. Hopefully these logs speak for themselves. If not no one is obligated to purchase anything so if you believe they do not work you can exercise that right. Hope everyone is well. Cheers

  2. #27
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    Vargas handled the situation with me. This solution did not fit my particular needs likely due to the fact that I am one of only a few that are attempting to run straight e85 on stock turbos. Either way tony has taken care of the situation.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



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    Trims don't determine any action for DME... they are just a measure from the base calibration. ST real time and LT more permanent adjustments.

    IPW is adjusted based on AFR (PID calcs likely) and rail pressure. The ONLY time trims are not an accurate measure from base is when DME cannot read the correct rail pressure due to falling pressure (capacity issue). You would have almost instant maxed +trims at that point.

    In no way trims can be used to determine fuel system capability!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    Vargas handled the situation with me. This solution did not fit my particular needs likely due to the fact that I am one of only a few that are attempting to run straight e85 on stock turbos. Either way tony has taken care of the situation.
    Glad he took care of you but still sucks you can't just do straight E85. I thought guys were doing that already on the stock turbos?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Trims don't determine any action for DME... they are just a measure from the base calibration. ST real time and LT more permanent adjustments.

    IPW is adjusted based on AFR (PID calcs likely) and rail pressure. The ONLY time trims are not an accurate measure from base is when DME cannot read the correct rail pressure due to falling pressure (capacity issue). You would have almost instant maxed +trims at that point.

    In no way trims can be used to determine fuel system capability!
    No where did I say trims were used to measure fuel system capacity, they are simply being used as a window into what the fuel system is doing, before mod DME is adding as much fuel as possible until it reaches its max to hit targets due to falling HPFP, after mod and nothing else, we see much recovered HPFP in a broad RPM range and the DME pulling out fuel to hit the same targets. I appreciate you trying to twist it around though. Would love to see someone make 673 WHP on the stock HPFP, and rail. Once you do come back and then you can tell me this did not solve our fueling problem.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Glad he took care of you but still sucks you can just do straight E85. I thought guys were doing that already on the stock turbos?
    Some are like @benzy89 that have been able to run full e85 with no issues (and no meth). Most others are either running less ethanol or stacking meth.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



  7. #32
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    FWIW no one used trims to "measure capacity"
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    Some are like @benzy89 that have been able to run full e85 with no issues (and no meth). Most others are either running less ethanol or stacking meth.
    So why can he and why can't you?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    Some are like @benzy89 that have been able to run full e85 with no issues (and no meth). Most others are either running less ethanol or stacking meth.
    We ran mikes stage 2 car on straight E85 no meth using cobb, Dzenno tuning it, and hit 500 WT on the dyno, had done the same for multiple street runs and multiple dyno runs trying to get the clutch to grab without a single limp or code. So I think you might have something else going on if you are at less than that on stock turbos and running into misfires and limps

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So why can he and why can't you?
    Anyone can really. It's just a matter of how much power you want to make and how lean you want to run it. Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Anyone can really. It's just a matter of how much power you want to make and how lean you want to run it. Click here to enlarge
    ??? my understanding is he and you were both getting limps, misfires, and codes, not just running lean. Not sure if you are implying we were running lean and just going with it. We were not, we had our target AFR's dead on.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    No where did I say trims were used to measure fuel system capacity, they are simply being used as a window into what the fuel system is doing, before mod DME is adding as much fuel as possible until it reaches its max to hit targets due to falling HPFP, after mod and nothing else, we see much recovered HPFP in a broad RPM range and the DME pulling out fuel to hit the same targets. I appreciate you trying to twist it around though. Would love to see someone make 673 WHP on the stock HPFP, and rail. Once you do come back and then you can tell me this did not solve our fueling problem.
    I was just making a general statement as it seems there's misunderstanding in posts by both you and DZ.

    DZ was referring to trims as compensation to pressure... this is clearly a misunderstanding. You have mentioned maxed to neg trims after fuel mods proving there's excess capacity... I think you understand now that this is incorrect.

    Trims as a window into what's happening, can only be used to reference tuning. Fuel pressure is your window into capacity, and to a lesser degree AFR.

    It does seem from the limited info that the fuel mods have increased capacity to some degree.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    ??? my understanding is he and you were both getting limps, misfires, and codes, not just running lean. Not sure if you are implying we were running lean and just going with it. We were not, we had our target AFR's dead on.
    I run 100% E85 all the time, but at around 17.5psi (not 18.5psi), and at 14:1 in the midrange tapering to 12.7:1 up top. So it's simply a matter of tuning. Running 15psi you won't need as much fuel as you do at 20psi, right? So on the tuning end you can control things from that angle along with AFR. But, if the goal is to max out the stock turbos on 100% E85, it becomes an issue.
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  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I was just making a general statement as it seems there's misunderstanding in posts by both you and DZ.

    DZ was referring to trims as compensation to pressure... this is clearly a misunderstanding. You have mentioned maxed to neg trims after fuel mods proving there's excess capacity... I think you understand now that this is incorrect.

    Trims as a window into what's happening, can only be used to reference tuning. Fuel pressure is your window into capacity, and to a lesser degree AFR.

    It does seem from the limited info that the fuel mods have increased capacity to some degree.
    cough hater cough lol go ahead twist my words i guess, no helping it really
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    N54's fueling is closed loop and the trims are part of that loop (i.e. realtime fueling corrections). If you set your fuel targets to 12:1 say and your HPFP pressure to something that is reasonable and you see trims go up it can be because of multiple reasons, not necessarily calibration. Some examples:

    1) LPFP is tanking, not enough fuel, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction (adding fuel)
    2) HPFP pressure drops under load, not enough fuel, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction (adding fuel)
    3) HPFP pressure target set too low, not enough fuel, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction (adding fuel)
    4) HPFP pressure target set too high, too much fuel, DME drops fuel trims in the negative direction (removing fuel)
    5) E85 in the tank, requires more fuel than gasoline, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction, fuel scalar not set correctly (i.e. fueling miscalibration that might be fixed through proper calibration if there's enough fuel capacity)

    So, in the end, provided everything is setup correctly for a given fuel's specific gravity and a given pump/pumps flow capacity/mechanics, your trims should hover around zero in an ideal world. Otherwise they show you that there's either a slight miscalibration being addressed through its closed loop (which is 'ok', not ideal but ok unless they max and hit the ceiling of +/- 34%) or a mechanical limitation/issue causing them to go high (one of the 5 above, could be some other examples in there too I haven't covered).

    This is why, provided sound calibration, trims are a great indicator of what's going on with fueling and fuel system limits, before you go analyzing your fuel system components.
    I see where the confusion is here maybe. Change "DME raises" to "logs show rising fuel trims, DME adding fuel" LOL does that make it sound better?
    Click here to enlarge

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    I haven't seen many logs but the vtt upgrade definitely helps fueling no doubt, seems like 5500rpm is where gains are most pronounced. I need to check out those logs for afr, because in the end that's what ultimately matters. On the other site there's a guy playing with the rail, I know Vargas modified the rail, and even when his stock hpfp was crashing his afr was good. I mean that's not necessarily ideal I guess but if afr/logs show decent pressure good afr and trims not out of bound, then how important is 1500 psi anyway in the midrange when the window is longer? By the time it seems to matter, the upgraded pump has recovered. I am all for a fix to every quip but right now the vtt upgrade is the only game in town, and fueling is definitely better with it from what I've seen, just possibly not in every situation. Interested in those logs for sure though thanks Tony!

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    +100
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    I mean there's always an m3... kidding but guys were acting like fueling in all siuations was figured out when even e85 on stock turbos can cause problems. It will get there but teething continues.
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    the thing with those logs

    the stage 3's don't have anywhere near the midrange the stage 2/OEM have, if the stage 3's are demanding too much fuel with the upgrade, it's just not possible to overcome that for the stock housings.

    i'm 100% confident there has to be a way to add more mid range high pressure fuelling. it just has to be found!
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Trims don't determine any action for DME... they are just a measure from the base calibration. ST real time and LT more permanent adjustments.

    IPW is adjusted based on AFR (PID calcs likely) and rail pressure. The ONLY time trims are not an accurate measure from base is when DME cannot read the correct rail pressure due to falling pressure (capacity issue). You would have almost instant maxed +trims at that point.

    In no way trims can be used to determine fuel system capability!
    i normally dont like you, but thats a good post. your gonna need all the pos rep you can get if you start down this road Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Trims don't determine any action for DME... they are just a measure from the base calibration. ST real time and LT more permanent adjustments.

    IPW is adjusted based on AFR (PID calcs likely) and rail pressure. The ONLY time trims are not an accurate measure from base is when DME cannot read the correct rail pressure due to falling pressure (capacity issue). You would have almost instant maxed +trims at that point.

    In no way trims can be used to determine fuel system capability!
    So trims are not affected by fuel pressure? Interesting. You know, come to think of it that's sorta obvious. When you bias fuel pressure down you lower trims due to afr falling into line. But for whatever reason I always considered them directly related. Kinda like how thunder causes rain. Repped. But fwiw for others, long term fuel trims are not very permanent... long term in computer cycles is a range of averaging over few seconds, like 30 max iirc.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    the thing with those logs

    the stage 3's don't have anywhere near the midrange the stage 2/OEM have, if the stage 3's are demanding too much fuel with the upgrade, it's just not possible to overcome that for the stock housings.

    i'm 100% confident there has to be a way to add more mid range high pressure fuelling. it just has to be found!
    If the spool of stage 3 gets improved, it can make power closer to stock turbo whp levels in the mid range and the fueling can become a problem for stage 3 as well.

    The problem can be solved by upgraded HPFP. However, an average Joe does not want to get an expensive HPFP upgrade since meth fueling is the cheapo around it. So, the demand is not there for dthe HPFP cylinder upgrades - at least for the time being.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    If the spool of stage 3 gets improved, it can make power closer to stock turbo whp levels in the mid range and the fueling can become a problem for stage 3 as well.

    The problem can be solved by upgraded HPFP. However, an average Joe does not want to get an expensive HPFP upgrade since meth fueling is the cheapo around it. So, the demand is not there for dthe HPFP cylinder upgrades - at least for the time being.
    I disagree (on ave joe). Running e85 is far easier and ideal than meth (I've run both setups), for me. I'm sure others will agree. Meth is more complicated than running e85 (or FP swap), and I've found it to be much more reliable.
    Change is constant

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    If the spool of stage 3 gets improved, it can make power closer to stock turbo whp levels in the mid range and the fueling can become a problem for stage 3 as well.

    The problem can be solved by upgraded HPFP. However, an average Joe does not want to get an expensive HPFP upgrade since meth fueling is the cheapo around it. So, the demand is not there for dthe HPFP cylinder upgrades - at least for the time being.
    that SHOULDN'T be physically possible

    i mean... physics gets in the way of bigger turbos pushing as much air as smaller turbos in the midrange.. otherwise big singles would also be able to have the same curve.. especially smaller big singles lol

    i mean, it would be pretty cool on one hand though haha

    i for one would pay for a proven all-round HPFP upgrade

    but when you're getting into the $2000++ range (unproven) HPFPupgrade is asking for... i'd rather put that into a port injector setup when/if it's possible.

    ED:

    and like @The Ghost said... i don't want to have to run meth, i don't want to have to get a tank, run lines, and fill that up every now and then - mainly because i'm trying to get my engine bay as neat as possible haha

    i wouldn't be allowed on most of the tracks/entry level race classes here anyway, they don't allow meth injection
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    that SHOULDN'T be physically possible

    i mean... physics gets in the way of bigger turbos pushing as much air as smaller turbos in the midrange.. otherwise big singles would also be able to have the same curve.. especially smaller big singles lol
    Big T vs TT

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