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  1. #1
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    new pump and rail of vtt?

    how many of you use the new pump and rail vtt?

    I read by n54tech there are some problems with it, is that true?

    I want to buy this update but I'm not sure without seeing other user comments...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by carcars Click here to enlarge
    how many of you use the new pump and rail vtt?

    I read by n54tech there are some problems with it, is that true?

    I want to buy this update but I'm not sure without seeing other user comments...
    I would hold off if I were you until everything is made clear. I still haven't heard a response from Tony yet. I would hold off for at least that.

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    Using it on my 6466 335i.

    @BoostAddict installed it maybe he has some input?
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    I am very disappointed that the HPFP and fuel rail upgrade was touted as the way to run e85 on this platform without fueling issues but in fact it performs just as poorly in the midrange rpms as the stock pump. The only reason I bought it was because tony and I exchanged emails where he clearly stated running 100% e85 would not be an issue with this upgrade....$1300(new parts plus upgrade charge-give or take) later, HPFP related limp modes still plaguing my world. This is all on stock turbos sub 500 whp levels. I am still seeking a refund for at least the upgrade fee since it is not performing as promised but no word yet.
    From what I have read here and other places it looks like it is fine above 5k rpms.

    Below it is just as useless as the stock HPFP which is a shame.

  5. #5
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    From what I have read here and other places it looks like it is fine above 5k rpms.

    Below it is just as useless as the stock HPFP which is a shame.
    i've only seen that from one person though?

    or have others finally stepped up about it?
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    Using it on my 6466 335i.

    @BoostAddict installed it maybe he has some input?
    I have no technical data at this point other than saying the hijacked afr gauge in dash read richer after the install. We'll have logs once your lpfp upgrade is completed.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    I have no technical data at this point other than saying the hijacked afr gauge in dash read richer after the install. We'll have logs once your lpfp upgrade is completed.
    It shouldn't though. We'll have to dig through the data. Once the low pressure system is working though you can crank up the boost on E85 and we'll find out where fueling stands very quickly. Should be enough for 600rw at least on E85.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 05-29-2013 at 09:07 PM.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    ultimatelynobody knows100%100

    because for$ 1,200is worththeupgradewe shouldhavemoreinformation and evidenceofthis update

    I think I'lltake a breakand I will notbuythevtt3and pumpuntil I seemore information...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #9
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    5 out of 5 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    have you also decided that you will no longer use the space bar like a normal human being?
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport - SOLD
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
    have you also decided that you will no longer use the space bar like a normal human being?
    Noiwillnotusespacebarjustlikeiwillnotusethevttstag e3upgradeorfuelrail
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Mydixiewrecked...

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    Hmmm, I'm supposed to get the upgraded hpfp and fuel rail with my Stage 3s. Hopefully they figure out the issue!
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

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  13. #13
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    obv the upgrade works well enough with stage 3 to allow Tony to drive the car daily... he says on the same map that they left the dyno with...

    the issue people are talking of here is more so related to stock turbos on 100 percent e85 where midrange fuel demand is high...

    It certainly isnt going to hurt your situation to have the tweaks done to your hpfp and rail, and im sure it will help a bit... stage 3s down low dont demand the same fuel as oem's .... Also if you have stage 3s you will prob be using meth which will further help your fuel situation...

    if you are not and are shooting for 100 percent e85 , I would either re think your desire for all e85 or engineer something quickly lol
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport - SOLD
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    I said this before, but it was never really directly addressed. I believe everyone here interested in running 100% E85 on Stock/Stage 2/RBs are running the single Walbro LPFP upgrade. In the VTT S3 thread, Tony had mentioned they are running a dual LPFP setup (1 in bucket/1 outside).

    I imagine that a single LPFP isn't getting enough fuel to the HPFP at the start of a pull, which is why the HPFP is fine above 5k RPMs. Especially when you consider Tony had said they were getting negative fuel trims​ when they were running the VTT HPFP upgrade with the Stage 3 car.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
    have you also decided that you will no longer use the space bar like a normal human being?
    English is not his native language. I'm not saying his keyboard doesn't have a spacebar though.

  16. #16
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    haha, i was just bustin ballz
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport - SOLD
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I said this before, but it was never really directly addressed. I believe everyone here interested in running 100% E85 on Stock/Stage 2/RBs are running the single Walbro LPFP upgrade. In the VTT S3 thread, Tony had mentioned they are running a dual LPFP setup (1 in bucket/1 outside).

    I imagine that a single LPFP isn't getting enough fuel to the HPFP at the start of a pull, which is why the HPFP is fine above 5k RPMs. Especially when you consider Tony had said they were getting negative fuel trims​ when they were running the VTT HPFP upgrade with the Stage 3 car.
    Negative fuel trims means that the fueling map should be better calibrated to the middle. It does not mean there id fuel enough.

    Two pumps in parallel are not pushing more pressure to the hpfp. Quite the contrary. You need to get them in series to get the pressure up.

  18. #18
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I said this before, but it was never really directly addressed. I believe everyone here interested in running 100% E85 on Stock/Stage 2/RBs are running the single Walbro LPFP upgrade. In the VTT S3 thread, Tony had mentioned they are running a dual LPFP setup (1 in bucket/1 outside).
    Both pumps (oem+walbro) were in the OEM bucket on the VT3 setup hooked up in parallel.
    Click here to enlarge

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I imagine that a single LPFP isn't getting enough fuel to the HPFP at the start of a pull,
    That isn't the case. Remember, when evaluating fuel delivery, fuel trims are irrelevant.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  20. #20
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    Negative fuel trims means that the fueling map should be better calibrated to the middle. It does not mean there id fuel enough.

    Two pumps in parallel are not pushing more pressure to the hpfp. Quite the contrary. You need to get them in series to get the pressure up.
    N54's fueling is closed loop and the trims are part of that loop (i.e. realtime fueling corrections). If you set your fuel targets to 12:1 say and your HPFP pressure to something that is reasonable and you see trims go up it can be because of multiple reasons, not necessarily calibration. Some examples:

    1) LPFP is tanking, not enough fuel, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction (adding fuel)
    2) HPFP pressure drops under load, not enough fuel, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction (adding fuel)
    3) HPFP pressure target set too low, not enough fuel, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction (adding fuel)
    4) HPFP pressure target set too high, too much fuel, DME drops fuel trims in the negative direction (removing fuel)
    5) E85 in the tank, requires more fuel than gasoline, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction, fuel scalar not set correctly (i.e. fueling miscalibration that might be fixed through proper calibration if there's enough fuel capacity)

    So, in the end, provided everything is setup correctly for a given fuel's specific gravity and a given pump/pumps flow capacity/mechanics, your trims should hover around zero in an ideal world. Otherwise they show you that there's either a slight miscalibration being addressed through its closed loop (which is 'ok', not ideal but ok unless they max and hit the ceiling of +/- 34%) or a mechanical limitation/issue causing them to go high (one of the 5 above, could be some other examples in there too I haven't covered).

    This is why, provided sound calibration, trims are a great indicator of what's going on with fueling and fuel system limits, before you go analyzing your fuel system components.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    1) LPFP is tanking, not enough fuel, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction (adding fuel)
    2) HPFP pressure drops under load, not enough fuel, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction (adding fuel)
    3) HPFP pressure target set too low, not enough fuel, DME raises fuel trims in the positive direction (adding fuel)
    4) HPFP pressure target set too high, too much fuel, DME drops fuel trims in the negative direction (removing fuel)
    Sigh none of that is right. If low pressure drops there is no direct change to fuel trims. If low pressure drops so low that high pressure also drops this still doesn't directly impact fuel trims. Fuel trims are indexed on load & RPM (and a few other minor factors). IPW is indexed on fuel trims and fuel pressure. So when fuel pressure changes IPW changes but fuel trims don't necessarily change.

    I think part of the issue here is you were helping Vargas with the fuel system analysis and simply don't fully understand it. No offense intended as all engineers myself included are always learning. But without a sound fundamental analysis it's hard to get to the bottom of things.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  22. #22
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Sigh none of that is right. If low pressure drops there is no direct change to fuel trims. If low pressure drops so low that high pressure also drops this still doesn't directly impact fuel trims. Fuel trims are indexed on load & RPM (and a few other minor factors). IPW is indexed on fuel trims and fuel pressure. So when fuel pressure changes IPW changes but fuel trims don't necessarily change.

    I think part of the issue here is you were helping Vargas with the fuel system analysis and simply don't fully understand it. No offense intended as all engineers myself included are always learning. But without a sound fundamental analysis it's hard to get to the bottom of things.
    Bad day today?

    LOL "sigh", would you like to see a log of LPFP dropping to 38-40psi and the trims going +34%? Click here to enlarge You're saying the same thing I'm saying. You just added more detail to it.

    Part of the issue here is that you're butt hurt for some reason

    EDIT: Attached. Yay log! Click here to enlarge
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Click here to enlarge

  23. #23
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Bad day today?

    LOL "sigh", would you like to see a log of LPFP dropping to 38-40psi and the trims going +34%? Click here to enlarge You're saying the same thing I'm saying. You just added more detail to it.

    Part of the issue here is that you're butt hurt for some reason
    I'm actually in a pretty good mood. Although, I watched "Mermaids: The New Evidence Special" last night on Animal Planet, and it was a bit freaky. I feel better now that I know it's a hoax. Click here to enlarge

    RE: Fuel system discussion, I'm just trying to get you up to speed on how to properly analyze this. Or at least offer my opinion on flaws with your analysis.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Lol well thanks for "correcting" me
    Click here to enlarge

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    Another thing to point out there was no fuel system "analysis". We hit a limit were leaning out he made some changes, we got more fuel and turned it up further and stopped. That mod happened at 573whp on 91 after which we ran race gas. All i ever said was for the octane we were using and boost curve we could pull off with that manifold we had plenty of fuel.
    Click here to enlarge

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