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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Should it matter if you are a noob or not a noob? All customers should be treated equally.



    Does not make sense and the guy is not a n00b, he was simply ignored until he mentioned he was ignored and then Shiv pounced on him for doing so.
    based on his questions, he is a noobie. Everything he wondered about has been answered on e90 and shivs forum. Not knowing how to install plug and play tunes/meth kits is sort of scary when you are talking about Bigger turbo set ups. These people need to realize, the more you mod, the more you have to understand what does what.
    Last edited by Laloosh; 09-11-2010 at 11:31 AM.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by encinitas Click here to enlarge
    My point is that - Shiv and Terry don't owe us anything besides selling us a tune that works. However, IF one of the finds that it is better for there business model to go above and beyond these basic requirements (for free)- then this is a welcome benefit to going with them, especially if you plan on extensive new mods that haven't been well documented and discussed yet for our platform. If this was a k04 setup on a vw or b5s4, and, I couldn't research that kind of stuff on my own for the most part, then, tuners should get annoyed, etc.

    If you go into most aftermarket shops out there - they will have no clue on how to optimize this setup. GIAC is a very well respected brand that has yet to tune an upgraded n54 turbo. Why? They don't want to $#@! it up and they want it done the right way. In this regard, having a tuner explain how they are going to dial you in seems to make more sense if they want to be known for being a go to product in this category. Do I have to explain why I might want specific info regarding the right amount of meth flow with upgraded turbos?

    Fine, I agree that they do have the right to charge me for this if they feel like it. But, if a tuner wants to help out without a charge, this is excellent and deserves recognition.

    Is Enrita gonna get big time help from Shiv? You bet. Is he gonna pay for it? Nope. Why? Shiv wants to use him to one up Terry and prove that he won't blow his motor as it is assumed my a lot of people on the forums that this was ALL Terry's fault. Who else will get help, Dzenno, Jpsimon, and anyone else that has a long history on the boards, for free too.

    So like Sticky pointed out, why should shiv treat people who purchased his tune differently? I dunno, and, I'm over it - said what I need to say.

    So since you have never been a noob or asked retarded questions in your whole life Laloosh, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that you were born potty trained, never wet the bed or $#@! your pants as an infant either.
    It's all about realistic expectations man.

    I can't imagine how ridiculously busy guys like Terry and Shiv are trying to keep up with:
    -Customer Service to existing tunes/equipment
    -R&D for the next tune/equipment releases
    -Answering posts/PMs/emails from multiple forums
    -Attending events
    -Supporting cutting edge users with new setups (for marketing purposes)
    -NOT TO MENTION RUNNING A BUSINESS

    I agree that I have been disappointed in the documentation offered by Vishnu for their products. Their website and forum are pretty sparse and take some getting up to speed to understand.

    However, I totally disagree that there isn't enough information on the N54 unlike B5S4s, STIs, Evos, etc. This was probably true in 2007 but is not true in 2010. There have been dozens of well documented builds by helpful guys on multiple forums that provide the information needed to make informed decisions about tunes and parts. I would not trust my car to a local shop that did not have significant experience tuning the N54, just like I would not trust a tune that had not been on the market for long enough to be proven safe and reliable. JB3, PROcede, GIAC, Dinan, and CP-E all fall into the plenty of experience category.

    If you are having trouble researching meth flowrates for upgraded turbos you're either not looking hard enough or not asking the right people. This is commonly cited info on these forums. I would not expect anyone to dial my car in without compensation, so I go to the forums for info. I would never install any piece of equipment on my car without a detailed understanding of how it works and how to set it up for my cars modifications. Doing so without this knowledge is a disaster waiting to happen, especially with meth and upgraded turbos.

    There are certainly guys that get "VIP" treatment from the tuners because they are running cutting edge setups and demonstrate the features and reliability of tunes/equipment without the tuning shop having to run their own time trials car. The decision to make a user a "VIP" is totally up to the tuner and what they see as a net benefit for business through marketing. Nobody is owed entry into this group because of turbos they buy or anything else. It's purely a business decision that the time they will spend supporting an individual user will pay off in good marketing when they post a great review or break some new ground in the N54 world.

    For all other users that are not selected for this kind of support, you get what you pay for. A reliable, safe tune that will work when used within the parameters specified by the tuner...

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    based on his questions, he is a noobie. Everything he wondered about has been answered on e90 and shivs forum. Not knowing how to install plug and play tunes/meth kits is sort of scary when you are talking about Bigger turbo set ups. These people need to realize, the more you mod, the more you have to understand what does what.
    What I expect when I mod and I am spending money with someone is that if there is something I don't understand, no matter how minute it may be, I am at least responded to and pointed in the right direction. If the info already exists, at least have the decency to take the time to tell me so.

    Don't you think it is odd there is more of an emphasis put on perception on the forums than actual helping of customers, noobs and all?
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doug007 Click here to enlarge
    There have been dozens of well documented builds by helpful guys on multiple forums that provide the information needed to make informed decisions about tunes and parts.
    It is not up to the customers to make up where Vishnu is lacking.
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    Doug007

    Once again, I agree with your very well thought out and presented post. Thanks for sticking up for your views of customer service. As regular users, it is our part to correct others when we feel like they are in error, preferably without flaming, condescension, and, arrogance. You do all these things well and I for one appreciate it.

    You didn't expressly state it, but, I just want to clear something up that I feel like you implied. I'm by no means wanting or trying to be a VIP or a know it all with our cars. In fact, as far as hobbies go, I'm way more into surfing than cars. I much prefer to paddle out with a few good friends and get a rush that way. As far as cars go - I'm humble and I have every reason to be. (Unfortunately, I have an autoimmune disease that has taken a toll on my joints and I've gotten more into modding recently in the down time that I have.) Be that as it may, I'm looking to stay very low profile from here on out on the forums. In fact this thread was something that I felt obligated to chime into, even though I knew there would be consequences.

    As far as my mods - I'm full bolt on. I don't post about them or link them in my sig - why - again, so many people already have them and it's not a big deal. FWIW, they were all installed either by myself, or, with the help of a friend. I have done all of them too by utilizing the DIY's that you point out are all over the place. Anyway. I also agree with you in that almost all the bolt ons and meth have been very very well rehashed to the point of tears at times on all of the boards. However, the fact is that maybe 5-10 people on the boards actually have a fully running upgraded turbo setup that is tuned and dialed in with their meth, and this is where customer service is needed from the tuner b/c it is pretty uncharted still.

    FWIW - JPsimon asks a bunch of meth questions, and, up until very recently, hasn't even had meth installed on his upgraded turbo car. Why doesn't he get the wrath of people calling him a noob for this stuff?

    As far as flow rates go - yes - I have a great idea of where to start out now, thanks to reading and asking the "right" people. I'm also aware that I can datalog and get this totally dialed in fairly simply.

    Maybe tuners should start charging for consultation outside of the norm - I'm not against that at all - however, it isn't one of their policy's yet and they both advertise that they do it for free. From my experience, Terry would get back to me no matter how lame he may think that I am. It's part of his business model. Whether or not it drives him nuts - it puts food on his table and his customers appreciate it. If the v4 and Jb3 were flying off the assembly boards faster than they could produce them, then, maybe they wouldn't need this annoyance and extra "feature" to help distinguish their tune from one another.

    When the JB4 comes out, I'm sure it will be as bullet proof as the v4 and won't need all the customization for users that the jb3 needs. This being said, my money is on Terry continuing to go the extra mile with free CS, even though his tune may well have the upper hand and not need it at that point. Again, part of his model for success - he sets it up that way - I'm just gonna use it and appreciate it if it is free. One thing is for sure, he wouldn't call me out for posting something such as is in this thread - then PROceed to not get back to me when I explain to him what I meant by my comments.

    So, the only reason that I commented on here is because I felt it might benefit those wondering about the customer service aspect of the tunes out there. Those still on the fence. I'm actually looking forward to ending this and getting on to more worthwhile uses of my time.

    It would be cool to know as much as some of the super intelligent people on these forums that don't need any help from the tuners at all. Unfortunately, like I mentioned, this is obviously not the case for me. At anyrate, Shiv will be fine regardless of what I say. He sells tunes like Kobe makes shots.

    I'm done, just gonna go back to reading threads from time to time and learning more about everything so that I can improve my car and my driving. It'll be just as rewarding to do it this way.

  6. #31
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    jpsimon is a noob when it comes ot meth, he askes the questions and people answer them.
    This entire community is $#@!en clueless when it comes to properly modding cars. How people could expect evo/sti documentation is beyond me. Its not hard to figure out the basic crap thats out for the n54.....if it is, ask on a forum and it will get answered by someone.

    For example, you running the RB set up in the future. What is there to know? You are having a shop do it, your tune controls it just like the stock turbos. You can run the same boost you ran before on pump, on meth, something like a m10 or m7/m5 combo you can pretty much go to 18-19psi, on race gas you can max them out. What else can you possible need to know. Its a stock turbo upgrade that is plug and play. Its not a single BT with a custom equal runner mani accompanied by a funky external vta gate that requires fine tuning. Everything in this community up to his point has been given to the end user on a silver platter. Bolt it up/ plug it in/ have fun.....and yet its still confusing? $#@!, if you enjoy playing with cars, pick up a book and learn something, ask questions on forums. ITs not hard. Even based on the cpe comment. Tuning with the standback is easy, its not a standalone system that takes 30 min to get the car to idle right.
    Last edited by Laloosh; 09-12-2010 at 12:03 AM.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    jpsimon is a noob when it comes ot meth, he askes the questions and people answer them.
    This entire community is $#@!en clueless when it comes to properly modding cars. How people could expect evo/sti documentation is beyond me. Its not hard to figure out the basic crap thats out for the n54.....if it is, ask on a forum and it will get answered by someone.

    For example, you running the RB set up in the future. What is there to know? You are having a shop do it, your tune controls it just like the stock turbos. You can run the same boost you ran before on pump, on meth, something like a m10 or m7/m5 combo you can pretty much go to 18-19psi, on race gas you can max them out. What else can you possible need to know. Its a stock turbo upgrade that is plug and play. Its not a single BT with a custom equal runner mani accompanied by a funky external vta gate that requires fine tuning. Everything in this community up to his point has been given to the end user on a silver platter. Bolt it up/ plug it in/ have fun.....and yet its still confusing? $#@!, if you enjoy playing with cars, pick up a book and learn something, ask questions on forums. ITs not hard. Even based on the cpe comment. Tuning with the standback is easy, its not a standalone system that takes 30 min to get the car to idle right.
    This is all fine and dandy but you seem to be missing the point that one company makes an effort to go above and beyond for customer service and the other does not. The effort someone puts in to get business resounds with some and people will reward that effort and know they can count on that business even if they have what are stupid/noob questions in the eyes of some. Obviously, it counts for something.
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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    jpsimon is a noob when it comes ot meth, he askes the questions and people answer them.
    This entire community is $#@!en clueless when it comes to properly modding cars. How people could expect evo/sti documentation is beyond me. Its not hard to figure out the basic crap thats out for the n54.....if it is, ask on a forum and it will get answered by someone.

    For example, you running the RB set up in the future. What is there to know? You are having a shop do it, your tune controls it just like the stock turbos. You can run the same boost you ran before on pump, on meth, something like a m10 or m7/m5 combo you can pretty much go to 18-19psi, on race gas you can max them out. What else can you possible need to know. Its a stock turbo upgrade that is plug and play. Its not a single BT with a custom equal runner mani accompanied by a funky external vta gate that requires fine tuning. Everything in this community up to his point has been given to the end user on a silver platter. Bolt it up/ plug it in/ have fun.....and yet its still confusing? $#@!, if you enjoy playing with cars, pick up a book and learn something, ask questions on forums. ITs not hard. Even based on the cpe comment. Tuning with the standback is easy, its not a standalone system that takes 30 min to get the car to idle right.
    I have to agree with Laloosh.

    In my experience, the N54 community does have it good when they can get in contact with the primary tuner at Vishnu and BMS and actually get an email/post returned. Can I say again how crazy busy these guys must be?

    Laloosh is correct that upgraded turbos are controlled in exactly the same manner as stock turbos. You give the wastegate controller a psig setpoint and it controls the wastegate to control boost at a certain rpm/load. The only real difference - and the reason for upgraded turbos - is that these upgraded turbos are more efficient at 18-20 psig than the stock units. Therefore, their outlet temps are lower and IATs drop for more O2 into the engine. Meth is an option to both reduce IATs and boost octane. Lookup heat of compression on wikipedia...

    If you are serious about changing out the turbos on your car and adding meth, you sure as hell better be sure that the fueling and ignition timing will support the boost you are running. If you don't have the experience/education to do this on your own, hire someone to do it for you.

    BMS might be more responsive to these types of questions, but in my opinion, Vishnu currently has the upperhand when it comes to N54 tuning with CANbus integration. That may change in the near future, but controlling boost, fueling, and ignition timing is key to successful tuning in this mechanical engineers opinion...

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doug007 Click here to enlarge
    BMS might be more responsive to these types of questions, but in my opinion, Vishnu currently has the upperhand when it comes to N54 tuning with CANbus integration
    I think everyone agrees on this point but this is also the reason why we see people more readily willing to support BMS even if it means certain sacrifices. With the JB4, all aspects will be covered.
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    Thanks for the insight everyone. I appreciate it. Don't have time to write more b/c I'm back to the books. Chow

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    Great night studying. I'm tired and here is my bedtime prayer:

    "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Shiv - I will fear no Vishnu-ite."

    "Though 10,000 noobs on my right side may soil their drawers after reading this thread, and 5000 on my left will stall their car after thinking about posting. I will fear no tuner that only cares to tear people down vs. help others. I will remain positive as a mechanical engineer opens up a can of tuned turbo knowledge on me."

    You guys are the greatest! I'll miss you as life goes in the real world for me.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This is all fine and dandy but you seem to be missing the point that one company makes an effort to go above and beyond for customer service and the other does not. The effort someone puts in to get business resounds with some and people will reward that effort and know they can count on that business even if they have what are stupid/noob questions in the eyes of some. Obviously, it counts for something.
    I think you are missing the point. with v4, there should be ZERO noob questions. Everything is written in black and white and the autotune does the rest. WTF could you possibly need? IF i owned a compny that sold tunes, i would take shivs approach. Sell at a premium, have the competition always copy/catch up, cater and work with the people that seem to know more about how things work, leave the noobs with simply documentation. If htey need more, start reading/asking. To me it wouldnt even be worth it to asnwer emails within in 10 min. $#@! THAT. Tune speaks for itself. Customer service in this industry is a joke imo. I pay for something, i get it, it either works or it doesnt. The end.

  13. #38
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    holy cow!

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    1 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    jeez, took you a while to respond shiv Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doug007 Click here to enlarge
    jeez, took you a while to respond shiv Click here to enlarge
    lol.. been pretty busy here. I would have responded earlier but I can't compete with some of the essays posted in this thread. I would have to use 12pt Courier font and generous margins to make the cut.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    lol.. been pretty busy here. I would have responded earlier but I can't compete with some of the essays posted in this thread. I would have to use 12pt Courier font and generous margins to make the cut.

    SHiv, can I get your personal Cell # if i buy a V4? I have a unique setup that you may be interested in tuning Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    hink you are missing the point. with v4, there should be ZERO noob questions. Everything is written in black and white and the autotune does the rest. WTF could you possibly need?
    Uh, well, maybe you have questions about how it reacts to upgraded turbos? Maybe you want to know what meth setup you should go with? Maybe you have some questions outside of the tune that you simply would like the tuner to take the time to answer to for peace of mind?

    Is it too much to ask for a response to a question when a customer? Who cares if you consider the question a "noob" question, customer service entails more than just a product that meets your standards.
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    at thispoint in time, i dont think there is such thing as a noob question with the upgraded twins. it needs some fine tuning. On the more aggressive "stock" settings you will overshoot because its so much more, so much sooner, regardless of tune. hence the fine tuning and "upgraded turbo" maps now offered. Legitimate questions

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    at thispoint in time, i dont think there is such thing as a noob question with the upgraded twins. it needs some fine tuning. On the more aggressive "stock" settings you will overshoot because its so much more, so much sooner, regardless of tune. hence the fine tuning and "upgraded turbo" maps now offered. Legitimate questions
    Untrue. You can run upgraded turbos with the standard Procede map and it will work just fine. That's the point of autotuning for things like boost, timing, fuel and wastegate stiffness. All done automatically with v4. The only difference between the standard turbo maps and the "upgraded turbo" maps is that the latter doesn't have a drop off in boost target at high RPM. There are several Procede users running upgraded turbos. Zero have been "custom tuned".

    Shiv

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    yea, regular maps work fine on the JB3 as well, but its much much easier to get the overboost codes on race maps.

    and i do recall some of your users saying they were getting a bit more boost than what they called for Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Untrue. You can run upgraded turbos with the standard Procede map and it will work just fine. That's the point of autotuning for things like boost, timing, fuel and wastegate stiffness. All done automatically with v4. The only difference between the standard turbo maps and the "upgraded turbo" maps is that the latter doesn't have a drop off in boost target at high RPM. There are several Procede users running upgraded turbos. Zero have been "custom tuned".

    Shiv
    case in point...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by oddjob2021 Click here to enlarge
    ... The car was overshooting the boost by a lot, we were seeing 26 pounds by less than 3 k revs. We had to dial down Future Use 1 in order to not overshoot the target. ....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    case in point...
    Which is why we now have wastegate compensation in our Autotuning logic. No need to adjust anything anymore.

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    so, your saying it had to be fine tuned then..
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Zero have been "custom tuned".


    its just hard to keep up between what end users say, and what the marketers are trying to sell sometimes
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Which is why we now have
    If you havent noticed, yet, In my world, " Say what you mean, and mean what you say."
    Last edited by LostMarine; 09-12-2010 at 09:56 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Which is why we now have wastegate compensation in our Autotuning logic. No need to adjust anything anymore.
    I'm sure a lot of people probably don't totally understand what Shiv is talking about but this is a seriously impressive achievement in turbocharged engine tuning. Click here to enlarge

    Boost, fueling, and ignition are the "normal" knobs tuners adjust to make more power. But the tuner has to "tune the tune" for the wastegate characteristics/responsiveness of the specific make/model. With autotuning compensating for wastegate responsiveness the tune is doing this automatically. As I understand it, PROcede will adjust targets to tune out under or overboost and achieve consistent boost control with the right amount of damping. All it takes is a few WOT runs to dial itself in.

    A single turbo or other alternative(external) wastegate arrangement would probably take some serious tweaking, but simply upgraded turbos with a similar wastegate arrangement seems to be well within PROcede's Autotune capabilities.

    A dynamic custom tune for every car is seriously cool. Static tunes work well, but variations amongst cars will sometimes require tweaks to the off the shelf tunes. Sounds like BMS is very good at this as well.

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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    There are several Procede users running upgraded turbos. Zero have been "custom tuned".
    So overshoot on boost control for upgraded turbos was an issue so Shiv added wastegate compensation to Autotuning. This makes perfect sense to fit in with the dynamic autotune concept Shiv has developed.

    So instead of fixing one guys tune and having to do that again for everybody with upgraded turbos, autotuning of wastegate control was added to address the issue for everybody at once. Sounds like a strategy to save time answering emails/posts Click here to enlarge

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