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Thread: Morning project

  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    midrange is where peak torque is, thus the highest fueling demands.
    I like your status.

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    Did a couple more runs in colder weather. Drop got worse as expected. Did not get low enough trigger a cutoff fault so unless you were checking would never know and might think everything was fine. If you are running 100% E85 definitely check your fuel pressure via logs from time to time.

    One interesting thing to note is when pressure dives it does recover within about a second. What could be happening during that second where pressure dives...
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    Terry, have you ever tapped the electrial line to the HPFP servovalve to see what the DME request is at that HP fuel drop?

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    Terry -

    Just to clarify -- are these findings with the Vargas fuel rail and their upgraded pump?

    Thanks.

    Neil

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    Terry, have you ever tapped the electrial line to the HPFP servovalve to see what the DME request is at that HP fuel drop?
    Yes, added mass fuel control PWM to the JB4 logging suite. PWM stays at ~60% when high pressure is under target. Tried manually opening the valve more than 60% but there was no fueling improvement observed.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MDORPHN Click here to enlarge
    Terry -

    Just to clarify -- are these findings with the Vargas fuel rail and their upgraded pump?

    Thanks.

    Neil
    All stock.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    All stock.
    I believe you indicated earlier that you were getting the Vargas fuel rail and pump.

    Will you be installing and testing with them?

    Neil

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MDORPHN Click here to enlarge
    I believe you indicated earlier that you were getting the Vargas fuel rail and pump.

    Will you be installing and testing with them?

    Neil
    May throw the rail on but probably won't do the pump until I add the larger turbos. But I don't expect much to change.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Relocated the post regulator inline booster pump to a nifty location right by the transmission. Click here to enlarge
    So Terry is this the same pump have the DIY at N54 and you just moved it outside? If so this looks much easier than having to crack open the tank.

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    Yes, same pump. I'll do up a DIY after some more road testing.
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    it is easier to hookup right? Darn i just bought that submersible line from Orielly's. But they do have some gator line non-submersible for E85 for like 7-8 bucks. So if this is easier I would def go this route.

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    Yes this route is easier to install and works just as well.
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    darn, i just finished installing the walbro 455 lpfp last week Click here to enlarge

    I take it that adding this post regulator in line pump would not really have any added benefit even when running straight e85 on stock turbos?

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    would it be possible or even beneficial to run both the in tank AND inline setup? or is that just ridiculous? haha
    boop

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    What about using the Walbro E85 pump as the inline instead of the universal pump? Like "Setup 4" from the "fuel upgrade thread results" on N54. Or does this draw too much current?

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    All this testing would be much nicer to follow with just Cobb logs instead of JB4. We could see requested vs. actual HPFP and LPFP Pressure as well as trims and AFR on both banks. Just way more data. I'd at least like to see requested vs. actual pressure for both HPFP and LPFP in these graphs/logs. Any way to do that on your end?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    All this testing would be much nicer to follow with just Cobb logs instead of JB4. We could see requested vs. actual HPFP and LPFP Pressure as well as trims and AFR on both banks. Just way more data. I'd at least like to see requested vs. actual pressure for both HPFP and LPFP in these graphs/logs. Any way to do that on your end?
    Cobb logs are fairly unless due to a lack of a good built in graphic interface tool. You toggle JB4 FUD settings to log AFR in both banks or fuel trims in both banks separately. I personally am happy to just look at the leanest AFR value and the highest trim value at any given moment via the default setting. Low and high fuel pressure tell the story. I recently added mass control valve PWM which turned out to be useless data. HPFP target is also useless data.
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  18. #68
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    There are many really good graphing tools you can use out there to graph csv data. Excel is one of them and that really isn't that hard, its Microsoft Click here to enlarge What I'm trying to say is I've got no way of telling what you're "targeting" vs. "actual". I'm seeing actual without any idea in a log/chart what's being targeted in these logs. You know these values because you've set the map up yourself but presenting them to the general public doesn't give us all the details behind this testing. Charting target vs. actual for HPFP and LPFP would be a lot more useful than just actual.

    Couple of questions:

    1) Why do the inline pump testing and not dual pumps in the tank hooked up in parallel like Vargas has done/tested?
    2) Why is this a concern if fuel pressure isn't dropping severely to levels where it'd be affecting trims/lambda? It may be dropping down below targeted higher pressures but why is this a concern if we get fuel pressure stable enough to meet the required fuel demands.
    3) Why does 100% E85 on stock frame turbos matters? Plenty of testing has shown that past E50 there isn't worth while power gains. If its for the ease of fill up and using one nozzle at the pump I can understand that, its simpler on a day-to-day, but performance wise, I don't see any benefit tbh.
    4) As some have already mentioned, with larger frame turbos low end torque simply won't be there. So lower HPFP speeds where it seems to suffer won't matter much.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 05-29-2013 at 11:13 AM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    There are many really good graphing tools you can use out there to graph csv data. Excel is one of them and that really isn't that hard, its Microsoft Click here to enlarge What I'm trying to say is I've got no way of telling what you're "targeting" vs. "actual". I'm seeing actual without any idea in a log/chart what's being targeted in these logs. You know these values because you've set the map up yourself but presenting them to the general public doesn't give us all the details behind this testing. Charting target vs. actual for HPFP and LPFP would be a lot more useful than just actual.

    Couple of questions:

    1) Why do the inline pump testing and not dual pumps in the tank hooked up in parallel like Vargas has done/tested?
    2) Why is this a concern if fuel pressure isn't dropping severely to levels where it'd be affecting trims/lambda? It may be dropping down below targeted higher pressures but why is this a concern if we get fuel pressure stable enough to meet the required fuel demands.
    3) Why does 100% E85 on stock frame turbos matters? Plenty of testing has shown that past E50 there isn't worth while power gains. If its for the ease of fill up and using one nozzle at the pump I can understand that, its simpler on a day-to-day, but performance wise, I don't see any benefit tbh.
    4) As some have already mentioned, with larger frame turbos low end torque simply won't be there. So lower HPFP speeds where it seems to suffer won't matter much.
    If you say so. Right now I do a WOT run, pull over, press F7, study chart, make a change, pull back on to the road, repeat. Not about to install excel on my laptop to try to make a chart lol. Maybe the Cobb setup works better for remote tuning where someone does a bunch of logs and sends the file to you. It's just not my cup of tea.

    Happy to add any useful info I can to diagnose the fuel system but high target doesn't interest me as it's static. It's targeting ~15 (~2250psi) on the high pressure side. The mass control valve is sticking at 60% PWM which is "fully open". The low target is always ~70psi.

    1) Because we know @ 70psi+ the high pressure system is not keeping up. So the thought is at 100psi+ maybe things will improve. The dual in tank setup is overrunning the factory regulator and running > 70psi at times.
    2) Any time fuel pressure drops off target it's a serious concern. It means you're close to the limit of your fuel flow. A little colder weather, a little stronger E85, a little extra boost, etc, and you'll hit a failsafe condition.
    3) It doesn't.
    4) I've only seen one piece of data from the VT3s on fuel pressure. You've presumably seen all the data as you tuned it? The fuel pressure drop was still present in the one log I saw which indicates an existing limitation. If spool speed is improved with the production manifold or users run smaller turbos it's going to be even more of an issue.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 05-29-2013 at 11:20 AM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    1) Because we know @ 70psi+ the high pressure system is not keeping up. So the thought is at 100psi+ maybe things will improve. The dual in tank setup is overrunning the factory regulator and running > 70psi at times.
    The thought "is" or "was" that 100psi+ would help?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    2) Any time fuel pressure drops off target it's a serious concern. It means you're close to the limit of your fuel flow. A little colder weather, a little stronger E85, a little extra boost, etc, and you'll hit a failsafe condition.
    I don't entirely agree. Targets can be set to whatever you want really. There's only so much mechanics of a given part will provide. Set the target too high and it'll always be under target. Why not look at it in the sense of do we have steady LPFP pressure and is the HPFP pressure sufficient enough and provides 'sufficient' fuel to meet targeted lambda and doesn't cause fuel trims to max? If we look at it that way then the current solution that we've used on the VT3 test car works just fine (dual lpfps + rail mod + hpfp mod). If overrunning the regulator is a concern then why not change out the regulator for a better flowing one and continue testing where we left off on the VT3 setup to battle the low RPM torque fuel demand. Just seems like you're going backwards a bit going with an inline pump the way it is right now.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    4) I've only seen one piece of data from the VT3s on fuel pressure. You've presumably seen all the data as you tuned it? The fuel pressure drop was still present in the one log I saw which indicates an existing limitation. If spool speed is improved with the production manifold or users run smaller turbos it's going to be even more of an issue.
    HPFP pressure was indeed still dropping at peak torque/mid range but what I think needs to be considered is that drops are relative to target and not those that cause issues. Drops weren't as large to be as concerning as what you've shown in this testing so far. I'll have to look again but as far as I remember we've never dropped to 1000psi or below during our testing when running without meth in those critical low end peak torque areas.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    The thought "is" or "was" that 100psi+ would help?
    This testing indicates adding a higher pressure regulator, doing more in tank stuff, larger lines, etc, is all currently a waste of time. I can't yet say whether it's better than a single or dual pump in tank from a flow perspective but I can say it appears to work just as well. Not having to crack the tank open makes for a much faster install so that is very appealing for those who need a low pressure upgrade. The VT3 log I saw was dropping to around 850psi. I've not seen any VT3 automatic trans logs with it banging through the gears which at least in my testing is what really shows the HPFP weaknesses.

    Since the drop happens and then recovers it leads me to believe the system can keep up but just gets out of sorts during heavy demand swings. I've also had in the back of my mind that Shiv is running a surge tank on his car. Although, he's never shared any data or information on it. In theory that would help stabilize low pressure but we don't see a low pressure drop during demand changes. I guess at the end of the day this all indicates that more R&D is needed here. Or a bunch of meth spray to mask all this crap. Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 05-29-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport - SOLD
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    Terry is going about this the right way with various testing. Its easy to mod the LP side, which he has done multiple ways but with similar results on the HP side. I think its confirmed there’s a couple options to meet LP demand, BUT there’s a need for more volume on the HP side. Modding the rail, HPFP outlet seems to help some, but its NOT the solution as HP still drops (Terry will soon confirm this also I believe). Does it work… maybe, but you are at the fuel system limits and need more headroom. Plus at high torque injection pressure is low relative to common DI targets… how does this effect cyl environment? Looks like piston volume or pump speed needs an increase.

    DZ, of course there’s an advantage to E100 compared with E50, you just haven’t seen it yet in your experiences. Come to AZ and do some testing. But Terry is doing this more for the volume experiment I take it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Terry is going about this the right way with various testing. Its easy to mod the LP side, which he has done multiple ways but with similar results on the HP side. I think its confirmed there’s a couple options to meet LP demand, BUT there’s a need for more volume on the HP side. Modding the rail, HPFP outlet seems to help some, but its NOT the solution as HP still drops (Terry will soon confirm this also I believe). Does it work… maybe, but you are at the fuel system limits and need more headroom. Plus at high torque injection pressure is low relative to common DI targets… how does this effect cyl environment? Looks like piston volume or pump speed needs an increase.

    DZ, of course there’s an advantage to E100 compared with E50, you just haven’t seen it yet in your experiences. Come to AZ and do some testing. But Terry is doing this more for the volume experiment I take it.
    I didn't realize anyone was testing for E100. Maybe you thought pure/100% E85 that you get off the pump that varies from about E68 at worst at the pumps and up.

    Are you saying you've seen considerable gains on a safe tune with timing on pure pump E85 vs an E50 mix? We have a very large user base of E85 blend cars out there at this point and I can tell you with certainty that going higher than E50 simply does not provide any significant measurable gains on stock frame turbos. I don't know what having pure pump E85 will mean to N54s with larger turbos or turbo out there but we'll see when we get there.

    What's the issue with finding/testing a regulator that doesn't get overrun by dual pumps in the tank which provide plenty of volume and keep LP on target? This is what I'd really like to see tested personally. Wish I had E85 up here Click here to enlarge We'll deal with it when we get an issue if an issue is really there at the power levels we end up making with larger turbos/turbo.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Terry, Dzenno, Josh et al -

    Just wanted to give you all props for a really excellent discussion and especially to Terry for his testing. Please keep it up!

    Neil

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