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  1. #1
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    Upgraded Valves/retainers/keepers/springs anyone?

    I'm currently talking to a few shops overseas, and am going to contact a few local ones as well.. wondering if anyone else could potentially be interested in a set depending what they come back with for materials/pricing etc?
    boop

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    Upgraded valves certainly aren't a bad idea but it seems as if nobody is revving out the N54 at the moment and autos wouldn't be able to anyway (as it currently stands) so likely little interest.

    Headwork will garner attention though...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Upgraded valves certainly aren't a bad idea but it seems as if nobody is revving out the N54 at the moment and autos wouldn't be able to anyway (as it currently stands) so likely little interest.

    Headwork will garner attention though...
    I'm (as long as the price isn't to the moon) going to get a set made for myself regardless to go with the rest of the headwork, and valves are the most expensive part of the set usually, so the rest is just 'may as well'. Were anyone else to show some interest, it may make getting them made a bit easier is all.

    Head work in general is certainly more interesting, but it's not something i can really offer a source for anyone else to get it done (realistically) haha - i'm having enough trouble finding a shop here anyway.

    There may be no real solid reason to do it, but there's not much AGAINST it either except for 'poor value'.
    boop

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    I would like to see an N54 reving to 8k...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    I would like to see an N54 reving to 8k...


    Don't think it can happen with our injectors.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by robertm Click here to enlarge
    Don't think it can happen with our injectors.
    It's not the injectors, it's most likely a combination of the OEM internals that can't support the additional revs. Increasing redline usually requires upgrade:

    • Valve Springs
    • Higher Head Flow
    • Head Bolts
    • Rods / Wrist Pins
    • Pistons
    • Bearings


    Cams would also be beneficial in raising redline, but there's currently no definitive aftermarket cam options for the N54 -- Just RennTECH rumors
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    Actually I believe it is the direct injection setup. Over a certain rpm limit and it becomes very difficult to spray enough fuel into the combustion chamber in the time allotted.

    Of all the things you mention, springs would be the only one which would possibly need to be changed. Valve float from the higher rpms is always a possibility. The other items have been pretty well proven out for strength with all the high hp motors. All this is predicated on just how high you want to rev it too of course..

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    The DI system would possibly be a limitation if it ever operated in stratified mode, but in the US the DI system only runs in homogenous mode (stratified mode requires a DeNOx catalyst, which is impossible to use in the US due to the sulfur content of the gasoline), so the time the injector sprays gas into the combustion chamber is somewhere from the beginning of the intake stroke, to partway into the compression stroke. Therefore there is MORE time to put gas into the cylinder than with port injection. Port injection cars run in excess of 10k rpm, no?
    Eppur si muove.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by robertm Click here to enlarge
    Actually I believe it is the direct injection setup. Over a certain rpm limit and it becomes very difficult to spray enough fuel into the combustion chamber in the time allotted.

    Of all the things you mention, springs would be the only one which would possibly need to be changed. Valve float from the higher rpms is always a possibility. The other items have been pretty well proven out for strength with all the high hp motors. All this is predicated on just how high you want to rev it too of course..
    My understanding is all you would need is springs and that the DI would be able to keep up to 8k. People rev to 7200 now right? another 800rpm isn't that much more especially if you can keep the valves from floating.

    Now with stock turbos this is a waste. Hopefully with upgrade stockers it would make sense if they are able to make/hold power to 8k. Imagine what the ST or VS3s would look like reving out to 8k.

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    Even if the engine did operate in stratified mode, it would only do so during part throttle cruising. Under WOT, it would always operate in homogenous mode because lambda must be below 1 when WOT, or the engine has a high probability of spontaneous rapid disassembly. If you are revving to 8000 or 9000 rpm, presumably it would only be under WOT.
    Eppur si muove.

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    Port fueled cars only inject into open valves under certain conditions with sequential injection setups. Batch fire port fuel cars rarely ever get an open valve. Even sequentially fueled cars puddle gas on the closed valve after a certain RPM due to the fuel demands. So port fueled cars have nearly 4 strokes of time to inject fuel, although you don't want to run the injectors over 80% duty cycle. FWIW- 100% duty cycle would be spraying 100% of the time, or for all 4 strokes. 80% is spraying for over 3 of the strokes. DI cannot do that, it can only spray for just over one stroke.

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    I think VAC has everything sorted already for this. Probably cheaper than trying to source/test your own. I'd contact them first.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by robertm Click here to enlarge
    Actually I believe it is the direct injection setup. Over a certain rpm limit and it becomes very difficult to spray enough fuel into the combustion chamber in the time allotted.
    Exactly. So you want to up power and revs? That poor pump.

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  14. #14
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    Supplemental *cough* fuel *cough* injectors? Whatever happened to that thread? Somebody was going to be testing a TB spacer plate in california IIRC with two sizable injectors...

    Not that I'm ungrateful for upgrades to the stock system or anything... just sayin... sometimes it feels like one step forward two steps back on the fuel stuff. I guess phasing in buckets of meth could work too for a little kick to the redline fueling wise.

    I would like to point out that fuel injector limits vs engine speed have yet to be determined. Maybe somebody nice with access to lots of logs could plot the duty cycle vs rpm at steady torque? Maybe we can determine how quickly the injectors will dry up from that.

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    Springs for the N54 are still not available AFAIK. The springs are very small. VAC still does not have them available.

    As far as CAMs, someone else is ready to jump on that, see previous sentence.

    Head bolts - nobody has them, ARP isn't willing to do them unless it's a big batch.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    I would like to see an N54 reving to 8k...
    two biggest restrictions after valvetrain would probably be turbos and tuning

    need big enough turbos that won't run out of puff after 7k... and well, tuning, obviously haha - no reason the DME wouldn't accept >7k though, unless it has really amazingly well restricted safety systems.. let alone anyone willing to try it on a proEFI

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by robertm Click here to enlarge
    Don't think it can happen with our injectors.
    according to OEM specs on the injectors, the windows/flow rates say yes it can, no worries, other things would be an issue first - the factory injectors flow incredible incredible numbers if you care to read through the 'fuel...' thread and do the maths on opening windows/how many ms/rpm etc.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    It's not the injectors, it's most likely a combination of the OEM internals that can't support the additional revs. Increasing redline usually requires upgrade:

    • Valve Springs
    • Higher Head Flow
    • Head Bolts
    • Rods / Wrist Pins
    • Pistons
    • Bearings


    Cams would also be beneficial in raising redline, but there's currently no definitive aftermarket cam options for the N54 -- Just RennTECH rumors
    ohh that reminds me, i want to get (probably ARP, some other good company) to make up some headstuds, again, presuming price won't be through the roof - going with new forged internals as a lot of people seem to be doing + new big ends should cover the bottom end for a LOT of people

    thanks
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by robertm Click here to enlarge
    Actually I believe it is the direct injection setup. Over a certain rpm limit and it becomes very difficult to spray enough fuel into the combustion chamber in the time allotted.

    Of all the things you mention, springs would be the only one which would possibly need to be changed. Valve float from the higher rpms is always a possibility. The other items have been pretty well proven out for strength with all the high hp motors. All this is predicated on just how high you want to rev it too of course..
    springs are pretty cheap, keepers are pretty cheap, retainers too... guides.... not as cheap but not as expensive as valves no?

    so i figure 'why not do it all then?' if i can.

    sorry but i don't plan on finding out breaking points of things if i can help it Click here to enlarge, and since no one else has, i don't want to risk it haha
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I think VAC has everything sorted already for this. Probably cheaper than trying to source/test your own. I'd contact them first.
    not any of the valvetrain itself going by their site

    their stage 3 is just a port/multi angle/recondition

    i'm pretty convinced i'll be able to get that work done here for less (from a reputable shop) without taking into account that i have to spend hundreds on packing+shipping it to VAC in the first place, and risking damage etc.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
    Springs for the N54 are still not available AFAIK. The springs are very small. VAC still does not have them available.

    As far as CAMs, someone else is ready to jump on that, see previous sentence.

    Head bolts - nobody has them, ARP isn't willing to do them unless it's a big batch.
    not unless it's a big batch? figures

    Anyone be up for a group buy on head studs alone from somewhere if no one does small batches? i'm not a fan of bolts compared to studs in general - will have to start sending emails around to companies about this too.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Supplemental *cough* fuel *cough* injectors? Whatever happened to that thread? Somebody was going to be testing a TB spacer plate in california IIRC with two sizable injectors...

    Not that I'm ungrateful for upgrades to the stock system or anything... just sayin... sometimes it feels like one step forward two steps back on the fuel stuff. I guess phasing in buckets of meth could work too for a little kick to the redline fueling wise.

    I would like to point out that fuel injector limits vs engine speed have yet to be determined. Maybe somebody nice with access to lots of logs could plot the duty cycle vs rpm at steady torque? Maybe we can determine how quickly the injectors will dry up from that.
    probably because it's still not needed for now with the HPFP upgrade i guess?

    i'm sure we'll find out in the coming mths/years lol... hopefully, it needs to be sometime.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Exactly. So you want to up power and revs? That poor pump.
    mmmm the pump will always be a worry...
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    not unless it's a big batch? figures

    Anyone be up for a group buy on head studs alone from somewhere if no one does small batches? i'm not a fan of bolts compared to studs in general - will have to start sending emails around to companies about this too.
    Not all the bolts are the same either. I think a couple have different lengths.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    not any of the valvetrain itself going by their site

    their stage 3 is just a port/multi angle/recondition

    i'm pretty convinced i'll be able to get that work done here for less (from a reputable shop) without taking into account that i have to spend hundreds on packing+shipping it to VAC in the first place, and risking damage etc.
    Stage 3 does come with upgraded springs, I believe. But they haven't received any yet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Supplemental *cough* fuel *cough* injectors? Whatever happened to that thread? Somebody was going to be testing a TB spacer plate in california IIRC with two sizable injectors...

    Not that I'm ungrateful for upgrades to the stock system or anything... just sayin... sometimes it feels like one step forward two steps back on the fuel stuff. I guess phasing in buckets of meth could work too for a little kick to the redline fueling wise.

    I would like to point out that fuel injector limits vs engine speed have yet to be determined. Maybe somebody nice with access to lots of logs could plot the duty cycle vs rpm at steady torque? Maybe we can determine how quickly the injectors will dry up from that.
    Nobody stepped up to the plate to give a car to take measurements. Thats the only thing standing in the way...
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
    Not all the bolts are the same either. I think a couple have different lengths.
    going by

    http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E82-135..._Head/ES18649/

    ... you're correct

    ill have to have another look when i get home, that could be a problem

    though there seems to be a LOT more of the larger ones (10 vs 4,2,2 , i'd assume getting studs to replace them would about cover it?.. those small ones would have very little holding force in comparison if they're for the same job, and they at least don't look like they do anything much in the way of holding down the head) - i'll have a closer look in a few hours Click here to enlarge
    boop

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