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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    No point everything we thought was fixed by the upgraded fuel components ended up still being an issue. At WoT the hpfp loses pressure from 1100-1500 psi to 500 psi right around 5k rpms.everything else looks great.
    Is this a pump issue or a DME/tuning issue?
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  2. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    No point everything we thought was fixed by the upgraded fuel components ended up still being an issue. At WoT the hpfp loses pressure from 1100-1500 psi to 500 psi right around 5k rpms.everything else looks great.
    I have one of your dyno logs handy. I've been using the conversion factor of 1 unit per 150psi so in this log high pressure drops to ~1350psi. Those road logs where it's dropping to 6 / 900psi are a killer. Hopefully between our current R&D and Garth's we can figure something out. I noticed in those road runs IAT was lower so much more actual power is being generated which puts that much more stress on the fueling.
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  3. #78
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    its amazing what methanol can do for fueling on this platform. Click here to enlarge

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    He's not running meth currently (see IAT) but I agree. It masks all these fueling issues. But has its own headaches from time to time.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    Everything is on holdClick here to enlarge, HPFP (upgraded) is still falling flat on its face (badly) in the midrange. Undercover is going to try some new tactics to solve the issues at hand. I am sad to say that consistently running 100% e85 even on stock turbos is not possible with any hardware out there currently. I know there have been a few anomalies out there (wedge, ect) who have been able to run 100%e85 with no issues but I believe most (if not all of them) are funneling a ton of meth in there to keep things happy. Stay tuned as Undercover tries to get this fuel situation in order.
    ohhhh no, so the vargas upgrade doesn't help enough in the midrange? Click here to enlarge
    ... so it's only really fixed it in the upper RPM's? (so far as it's appeared at least)

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    I believe you need to upgrade your HPFP to have a larger piston and consequently get it to flow more.
    .... a really difficult upgrade i take it? moreso than what's already done?

    @VargasTurboTech ?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I have one of your dyno logs handy. I've been using the conversion factor of 1 unit per 150psi so in this log high pressure drops to ~1350psi. Those road logs where it's dropping to 6 / 900psi are a killer. Hopefully between our current R&D and Garth's we can figure something out. I noticed in those road runs IAT was lower so much more actual power is being generated which puts that much more stress on the fueling.
    will be great when the midrange is fixed for those people running upgraded stock frame turbos/the upper limits of stock turbos - not everyone wants to be forced to use meth haha

    would there be anything more to be done to the HPFP to let it flow even more in that range though?
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    ohhhh no, so the vargas upgrade doesn't help enough in the midrange? Click here to enlarge
    ... so it's only really fixed it in the upper RPM's? (so far as it's appeared at least)
    Let's keep in mind he's running 100%, non-diluted E85 without Meth. So the Vargas HPFP upgrade might be sufficient for petroleum based fuels (Pump/Race Gas), it might not be enough for 100% E85.
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  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Let's keep in mind he's running 100%, non-diluted E85 without Meth. So the Vargas HPFP upgrade might be sufficient for petroleum based fuels (Pump/Race Gas), it might not be enough for 100% E85.
    that's what i'm wanting to run - E85 no meth :/
    boop

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    Yeah same, but it seems like (aside from running horribly lean a la vishnu flexfuel setup) the hardware out there cannot support the fuel (100% e85) at this time.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



  9. #84
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    I know Tony mentioned they were getting negative fuel trims (the DME was pulling fuel) when they added the Vargas HPFP, but they were also running a twin LPFP setup. Is it possible that a single LPFP might not be enough, causing the Lean Run conditions?
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    Yeah thats what we are hoping at this point. If that doesnt work meth is really my only option, or scrap the whole 100% e85 idea and move on.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



  11. #86
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I know Tony mentioned they were getting negative fuel trims (the DME was pulling fuel) when they added the Vargas HPFP, but they were also running a twin LPFP setup. Is it possible that a single LPFP might not be enough, causing the Lean Run conditions?
    he also mentioned it was still dropping pressure for 500rpm in the midrange, where stock turbos make even MORE power than their stage 3

    so it makes sense for the stock/stage 2's to seriously die in the ass
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Let's keep in mind he's running 100%, non-diluted E85 without Meth. So the Vargas HPFP upgrade might be sufficient for petroleum based fuels (Pump/Race Gas), it might not be enough for 100% E85.
    Also stock HPFP is sufficient for petroleum based fuels.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I know Tony mentioned they were getting negative fuel trims (the DME was pulling fuel) when they added the Vargas HPFP, but they were also running a twin LPFP setup. Is it possible that a single LPFP might not be enough, causing the Lean Run conditions?
    Yes, I think there is this common misconception that fuel trims have something to do with fueling capacity. Not sure where it came from. But, it's not accurate. Fuel trims are just a function of the scalar value entered in the flash and whatever biasing the piggyback is doing. Nothing to do with fueling capacity. Fuel PRESSURE is the measure you need to keep an eye on.
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    Opening up the restrictive passages is not a solution for mid range where hpfp volume is limited due to the RPM of the pump rather than the size of the passages in the pump and rail. Fixing mid range is the hard part.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    Opening up the restrictive passages is not a solution for mid range where hpfp volume is limited due to the RPM of the pump rather than the size of the passages in the pump and rail. Fixing mid range is the hard part.
    How do they do it on the VAG engine?
    I have zero technical knowledge on the subject but I know when I upgraded the HPFP in my S3 the mid range was where it benfitted the most.

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    OP, that's really not very good news. I'm still waiting for my VTT HPFP upgrade to clear customs (it's taken them 12 days so far....), and my plan was to run E85 with my RBs. I'm around 21 psi midrange, and sometimes my HPFP falls flat to ~900 psi around 4000-4200 rpm, but @ 5000+ it's back in business.

    I think it may have a lot to do with the tune as well. On the BMS flash map (both the race and E85 ones) + map 5 I recently got a 29DC code and a limp even @ ~18 psi, but with the PTF map from Dzenno I still don't get a limp, only occasional "stuttering" during midrange acceleration due to the drop in HPFP pressure. Actually before my DME failed I never had these problem with my current HPFP, so it may actually just be going out. It's "only" my second one in 85k miles...

    Well, I'll know more when the upgraded HPFP finally clears customs and I get it installed. I use the Walbro 455 pump, so it's similar to your setup.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Nugs Click here to enlarge
    How do they do it on the VAG engine?
    I have zero technical knowledge on the subject but I know when I upgraded the HPFP in my S3 the mid range was where it benfitted the most.
    I believe they upgrade the piston, use coatings to decrease the friction and perhaps open up some restrictive areas, but I'm not sure.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Yes, I think there is this common misconception that fuel trims have something to do with fueling capacity. Not sure where it came from. But, it's not accurate. Fuel trims are just a function of the scalar value entered in the flash and whatever biasing the piggyback is doing. Nothing to do with fueling capacity. Fuel PRESSURE is the measure you need to keep an eye on.
    Yep, I think Tony was toting the negative trims as an indication of excess fuel but this was just his misunderstanding. Trims are the fuel volume difference between actual versus setpoint. The reason they can go positive when capacity is strained is due to DME not being able to calculate actual flow (falling pressure).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G.I.Joe Click here to enlarge
    OP, that's really not very good news. I'm still waiting for my VTT HPFP upgrade to clear customs (it's taken them 12 days so far....), and my plan was to run E85 with my RBs. I'm around 21 psi midrange, and sometimes my HPFP falls flat to ~900 psi around 4000-4200 rpm, but @ 5000+ it's back in business.

    I think it may have a lot to do with the tune as well. On the BMS flash map (both the race and E85 ones) + map 5 I recently got a 29DC code and a limp even @ ~18 psi, but with the PTF map from Dzenno I still don't get a limp, only occasional "stuttering" during midrange acceleration due to the drop in HPFP pressure. Actually before my DME failed I never had these problem with my current HPFP, so it may actually just be going out. It's "only" my second one in 85k miles...

    Well, I'll know more when the upgraded HPFP finally clears customs and I get it installed. I use the Walbro 455 pump, so it's similar to your setup.
    Yes, with the JB4 in place fuel pressure is reported back as slightly lower than actual so you trip the injection fault earlier. But doing max torque runs @ < 1000psi fuel pressure is not a good idea IMHO even if we could just turn off the code all together. On the JB4 end though I can raise the scalar for you on the flash side, so you can lower open loop, and run that low pressure, if you don't mind taking the risks, but you are only removing the last bit of safety we've placed in there, maybe its 20hp more worth of fuel? Stuttering is much worse than the cutoff IMHO. Who knows what's going on in combustion when it leans out like that. I prefer the total cutoff.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 05-22-2013 at 12:56 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I know Tony mentioned they were getting negative fuel trims (the DME was pulling fuel) when they added the Vargas HPFP, but they were also running a twin LPFP setup. Is it possible that a single LPFP might not be enough, causing the Lean Run conditions?
    you see a log of this, or just words..?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    you see a log of this, or just words..?
    You already know, nobody's seen any VTTS3 logs
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    You already know, nobody's seen any VTTS3 logs
    hmm. so sad

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    Hopefully that'll change soon, haven't seen a VTT S3 update recently but I imagine that Tony is doing the tear down & perfecting the kit for customer retail.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Yes, with the JB4 in place fuel pressure is reported back as slightly lower than actual so you trip the injection fault earlier. But doing max torque runs @ < 1000psi fuel pressure is not a good idea IMHO even if we could just turn off the code all together. On the JB4 end though I can raise the scalar for you on the flash side, so you can lower open loop, and run that low pressure, if you don't mind taking the risks, but you are only removing the last bit of safety we've placed in there, maybe its 20hp more worth of fuel? Stuttering is much worse than the cutoff IMHO. Who knows what's going on in combustion when it leans out like that. I prefer the total cutoff.
    I agree, I don't like the engine stuttering like that, but up until the original DME failed, HPFP fuelpressure never dropped under ~1500 psi, and there was no stuttering, so I think the HPFP is on it's way out. Regardless, it was interesting to me how different tunes come up with different codes for what is basically the same issue. Hopefully I should have the VTT modified HPFP in a few days, so I can start testing again, and then I'll send you some logs. Don't really want to stress the car as it is running atm.
    E92 335i 2008 Space Grey 6MT | RB turbos | Quaife LSD | M3 Suspension kit | Íhlins Road & Track Coilover | DEFIVfab N54 diff lockdown kit | COBB PTF E50 map | Walbro E85 455 LPH LPFP | NGK 5992 plugs | Wagner FMIC | Wagner 3" DP | Milltek exhaust | Trueform Tech Intake System | Tial BOV | Motiv PI Stage 1 w/AIC | SPEC Stage 3+ clutch | SPEC SSM Flywheel | BMS CDV | 60-130 mph 7.55 s | 100-200 kmh 6.57 s

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Hopefully that'll change soon, haven't seen a VTT S3 update recently but I imagine that Tony is doing the tear down & perfecting the kit for customer retail.
    i think he is working on the piping to get better spool

    im interested in seeing the stg 2 data too though. werent there a few people getting them installed recently? @ChuckD05 was a local guy getting stg 2 vtt turbos right? bring it down to undercover one of these and lets see how it compares

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