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  1. #26
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    Or it could be a "simple mistake" on their part. Maybe they had old 261 injectors in the same parts bin as the new 079 ones? (Not bloody likely.)

  2. #27
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    Lol at the car being fine with no O2 sensors. The N54 is closed loop all the time which means it takes data from the primary sensors and uses that to figure out how much fuel to give the engine under all conditions. Yes the car may run on some sort of open loop failsafe map with the sensors unplugged, but BMW didn't specify wideband primary oxygen sensors in this engine for just emissions, granted better air/fuel control probably results in better emissions. That's like saying the turbos are just for fuel economy. And if the sensors are unplugged, the open loop map should be very, very rich to prevent catastrophic damage, although I supposed you'd have no way to measure how rich without an auxiliary wideband sensor.
    Eppur si muove.

  3. #28
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    I double checked pretty much everything they did this weekend and found the following.

    1) Two bolts from the engine cover are now missing.

    2) Two retaining bolts that hold one of the coolant lines to the subframe are now missing.

    3) Car is still leaking significant amounts of coolant from the radiator. I had to top off the expansion tank this weekend. Clearly the coolant leak was not fully addressed.

    4) And of course the injectors not being changed when they said they did.

    Missing bolts are not a huge deal to me but all combined I am not pleased even if it was warranty work.

    I replaced the MAP sensor (it looked like crap BTW) but it did not improve things. Same with replacing all the ratty looking vac lines.

    SA response to the above findings: "
    Well I do apologize in your findings as it was a simple mistake and mistakes happen as no dealer is perfect"

    I wouldn't call those mistakes, more like negligence.

  4. #29
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    Dealers are fairly worthless. If you're bored borrow someones JB4 ISO and do a log or two on that, and then I'd be happy to give you my opinion on what is going on with the car.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Dealers are fairly worthless. If you're bored borrow someones JB4 ISO and do a log or two on that, and then I'd be happy to give you my opinion on what is going on with the car.
    Thanks Terry. I might have to take you up on this.

    I still need to take my car back to the dealer to fix the stuff they failed to take care of on the previous two visits, but I did a bit more research and I think I may have two, unrelated issues.

    The AFR issue I think will end up being related to the O2 sensors and hopefully replacement of both will fix that issue.

    The surging issue may be related to the Torque Converter. Similar symptoms have been reported on the Audi forums and many of their cars share the 6AT in the 335i. Without codes it will probably be impossible to convince the dealer to replace it. Also a bit of a pricey part to blindly replace hoping it will fix the issue. I will probably flash the trans back to a stock config to see if that has any impact on this issue, but I doubt that it will.

  6. #31
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    Made some progress. After researching and finding that the TC may be the issue I tried to figure out how that applied to my car......Alpina Flash!

    Removed the flash today and the surging is 100% gone! Click here to enlarge

    I don't think this is an issue with the Aplina flash, probably more so an indication that my TC might be headed south soon....

  7. #32
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    Is your timing better now?
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
    Click here to enlarge

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    Is your timing better now?
    I don't think timing was ever the issue. I think the AFRs were the problem. I don't think any of the steps I've taken would address that issue. The car is going back to the dealer again this week to hopefully finally get the coolant leak fixed and actually get the injectors replaced this time.

    I have O2 sensors sitting here waiting to go in. After that I will do some logging to see if things are better.

  9. #34
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    Well the surging issue is now back so it wasn't the Alpina Flash. Click here to enlarge

  10. #35
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    Another nice little issue that has started to pop up. Not really a nuisance since I don't sit in the car and blip the throttle at idle, but maybe it will help with the diagnosis? Click here to enlarge

    Car still has the surging and lean AFRs btw.

    Video is me bliping throttle from idle while in park. RPMs fall rapidly, almost stalling the car, then recover and then fall again. I actually managed to stall the car completely doing that.


  11. #36
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Oh those AFRs Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

  12. #37
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    Have you logged high and low fuel pressure requested and actual yet?

    Looks like you car is trying to compensate for something judging from the short term trims maxing out while the AFRs are unreasonably high for WOT.

    Did you try resting the lambda adaptations yet?
    Eppur si muove.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    Have you logged high and low fuel pressure requested and actual yet?

    Looks like you car is trying to compensate for something judging from the short term trims maxing out while the AFRs are unreasonably high for WOT.

    Did you try resting the lambda adaptations yet?
    Yep, logged both. Sent all of them to Josh@Cobb. He is concerned about a large boost or exhaust leak. The car doesn't sound like it has either, and throws absolutely no codes.

    I've gone over everything several times and have found no obvious issues to explain these problems. The only thing I haven't done is double check to make sure the valve cover gasket install was done correctly.

    Really at a dead end now

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stangorang Click here to enlarge
    Yep, logged both.
    You would need to log four values to verify the functionality of your fuel system. High and low pressure each have requested and actual values that would need to be compared. The reason I am asking these questions is we know the HPFP has trouble maintaining pressure at lower RPMs under certain situations. If you could post data showing high fuel pressure and low fuel pressure are meeting targets (or close enough) through the 3 - 5k rpm range, we would know these components are not the problem. I know you are not running straight e85 or pushing 700 whp, but if there is something wrong with the HPFP and capacity is reduced, I would expect to see mid-RPM fuel problems at much lower fuel volumes.

    If you already posted a log of both fuel pressures actual and request values while the lean condition is occurring, I apologize and would ask that you point me towards it. If not, I would suggest you log AFR on both banks, TPS act., RPM, STFT and LTFT for both banks, and high and low fuel pressure, both actual and requested.

    Divide and conquer.

    I would say your DME is seeing the lean conditions through the oxygen sensors, and maxing short term trims to compensate for this. The question is why is the fuel flowing into the engine so much less than what the DME thinks it should be? An issue with lean AFR requires the fuel system to be checked to ensure it is meeting targets required by the DME.

    For the Stage 1 Drive map, 13 lbs. of boost tapering to 11 seems reasonable, right?
    Eppur si muove.

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    You would need to log four values to verify the functionality of your fuel system. High and low pressure each have requested and actual values that would need to be compared. The reason I am asking these questions is we know the HPFP has trouble maintaining pressure at lower RPMs under certain situations. If you could post data showing high fuel pressure and low fuel pressure are meeting targets (or close enough) through the 3 - 5k rpm range, we would know these components are not the problem. I know you are not running straight e85 or pushing 700 whp, but if there is something wrong with the HPFP and capacity is reduced, I would expect to see mid-RPM fuel problems at much lower fuel volumes.

    If you already posted a log of both fuel pressures actual and request values while the lean condition is occurring, I apologize and would ask that you point me towards it. If not, I would suggest you log AFR on both banks, TPS act., RPM, STFT and LTFT for both banks, and high and low fuel pressure, both actual and requested.

    Divide and conquer.

    I would say your DME is seeing the lean conditions through the oxygen sensors, and maxing short term trims to compensate for this. The question is why is the fuel flowing into the engine so much less than what the DME thinks it should be? An issue with lean AFR requires the fuel system to be checked to ensure it is meeting targets required by the DME.

    For the Stage 1 Drive map, 13 lbs. of boost tapering to 11 seems reasonable, right?
    Hmm I think you are right. I did not log the high and low fuel pressure, actual and requested. I'll do that next.

    Yeah I think the boost is on target. If it wasn't I would think the car would throw an underboost code.

  16. #41
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    For the log, fuel pressures would help. And plot the LT/ST trims when they go negative. Didn't read the whole thread, but if you want to very briefly summarize I'll try helping.

  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    For the log, fuel pressures would help. And plot the LT/ST trims when they go negative. Didn't read the whole thread, but if you want to very briefly summarize I'll try helping.
    Basic story is car goes in for a bunch of warranty work, comes out running funny, lean AFRs, and no a single fault code or SES light.

    Here are some of my logs.

    Im trying to avoid doing WOT pulls right now given those AFRs.

    3rd gear with fuel trims #2.csv.txt

    2-3 gear pull default settings.csv.txt

  18. #43
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    you have some crazy ass LTFT that need to be reset through INPA and then log various conditions including idle, part throttle, WOT... could be leaky injectors as my initial thought. Log both bank AFR, LT/ST trims. Fuel pumps are fine.

    EDIT: on second thought check tuning... seems almost like an off 3D scalar
    Last edited by JoshBoody; 06-11-2013 at 06:48 PM.

  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    you have some crazy ass LTFT that need to be reset through INPA and then log various conditions including idle, part throttle, WOT... could be leaky injectors as my initial thought. Log both bank AFR, LT/ST trims. Fuel pumps are fine.

    EDIT: on second thought check tuning... seems almost like an off 3D scalar
    Doubt it is the tune. That's an OTS map from Cobb. Josh@Cobb looked at the logs already and was not concerned that it was a tune issue.

  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    you have some crazy ass LTFT that need to be reset through INPA and then log various conditions including idle, part throttle, WOT... could be leaky injectors as my initial thought. Log both bank AFR, LT/ST trims. Fuel pumps are fine.

    EDIT: on second thought check tuning... seems almost like an off 3D scalar
    Okay, I just reset literally every adaptation 5 mins ago. I did a select few a few weeks but don't remember which ones.

    Is there a specific reset for the LTFT? I didn't see one in INPA

  21. #46
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    I would say the Lambda adaptation.
    Eppur si muove.

  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    I would say the Lambda adaptation.
    Okay cool. Did that one. Hopefully something gets better.

    Thankfully Cobb Tuning SoCal said they would give my car a once over if I can't find a solution.

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stangorang Click here to enlarge
    Okay, I just reset literally every adaptation 5 mins ago. I did a select few a few weeks but don't remember which ones.

    Is there a specific reset for the LTFT? I didn't see one in INPA
    supposedly INPA is the only way to reset long term adaptations, but I haven't needed to yet so can't say what menu. Either injectors or a parameter in the tune/DME. Reset and log again.

  24. #49
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    I just got to look at your data on a graph, and I agree with Josh. You long term trims are extremely negative in the area that your short term trims are max positive. I would think it would be standard practice to reset all fuel related adaptations when doing so much work on the fueling system. If you were having a problem with your injectors or HPFP before, your car may have learned to deal with it (by adjusting long term trims) but after the injectors and HPFP were replaced, the car is having trouble correcting itself it seems.

    Do you know if they coded your new injectors? You can't just swap them all without programming the DME with their calibration values.

    Here is that data from your second log graphed for reference.
    Click here to enlarge
    Eppur si muove.

  25. #50
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    I just got to look at your data on a graph, and I agree with Josh. You long term trims are extremely negative in the area that your short term trims are max positive. I would think it would be standard practice to reset all fuel related adaptations when doing so much work on the fueling system. If you were having a problem with your injectors or HPFP before, your car may have learned to deal with it (by adjusting long term trims) but after the injectors and HPFP were replaced, the car is having trouble correcting itself it seems.

    Do you know if they coded your new injectors? You can't just swap them all without programming the DME with their calibration values.

    Here is that data from your second log graphed for reference.
    Click here to enlarge
    The paperwork they provided says that the injectors were coded. I would assume replacing all 6 without coding would cause the car to throw codes.

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