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  1. #51
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    [QUOTtobahn335i;452203]Well I though they would take a turn again in the right direction. With Nitschke's statement in mind it's clear to me that the next M3/M4 engine will simply be a factory tuned N54 with a few minor changes maybe. Not a bad thing per se but certainly not what you would expect in the most important M car (from a sales numbers point of view at least).[/QUOTE]

    The upcoming M3/M4 engine is officially designated as S55, not the N54.

  2. #52
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    Under the hood of the new M3, the S55 engine. looks like there is no space whatsoever Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by deemo319 Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Well I though they would take a turn again in the right direction. With Nitschke's statement in mind it's clear to me that the next M3/M4 engine will simply be a factory tuned N54 with a few minor changes maybe. Not a bad thing per se but certainly not what you would expect in the most important M car (from a sales numbers point of view at least).
    The upcoming M3/M4 engine is officially designated as S55, not the N54.
    Yes, I think we know that.

    What he meant was that the new S55 will be very similar in its setup to the N54 engine (two turbos, 3l displacement), but engineered with some new gadgets like valvetronic.

    Which in turn is very similar to the new Alpina B3 Biturbo, which has a different engine block again (they couldn't use the N55 as you can't fit two oil/water cooled turbochargers to that block, unfortunately).

    If the new M3/M4 really only has just over 400hp at the crank, it will be difficult for it not to come last in any comparisons though (as Audi and AMG will be so far ahead power wise that even a slightly better suspension setup will not help much). And engine-wise it will be hard to differentiate it from the new Alpina B3 BT...

    Alpina_B3_Lux
    Current: Audi R8 V10 2013 S-Tronic, daytona grey, carbon side blades, MTM tune, Michelin PSS tires, Capristo x-pipe
    Gone: Audi R8 V10 2010 manual, ice silver, grey side blades, MTM tune, MTM air filters, Michelin PSS tires
    Gone: BMW 335i Individual (Íhlins, PFC brakes, RB turbos etc.)

    Gone: Alpina B3 E46 3,3

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
    So the next M3/M4 is getting electric steering. At least the articles puts off that vibe.
    That is why I bought an Audi after the test drive.

    I guess AMG is going to have a feild day in sales.

    Sorry BMW, I had you'r E46 in a roadster and 3, but this decision is piss and poor at bestClick here to enlarge

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DFM Click here to enlarge
    Under the hood of the new M3, the S55 engine.
    Whats that? an air2water2air cooling system?
    And twin air filter intake boxes?

    Interesting, that might be an engine with a lot of headroom for tuning Click here to enlarge, and maybe very little turbo lag. It looks that the air flow pipes go over the enigne to minimize the air volume to be pressurized, resulting in less lag.

    I'd love to see an exploded view of that setup Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by GuidoK; 05-06-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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  6. #56
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    Well, in a matter of years & when your car warranty expires... There will be plenty of carbon build up issues/misfires, component plastic issues since car are build to be cheaper & recycleable, electronic nightmares, etc. It's just a matter of residual for the manufacture & sell you the next new model.

    It used to be, you buy a luxury car & expect it to last at least 10 years of trouble free issues. Now, I don't even know why they even call them luxury or sports car. Since, they are built to last less than 5 years & still have plenty of issues when new.

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by m54b25 Click here to enlarge
    Well, in a matter of years & when your car warranty expires... There will be plenty of carbon build up issues/misfires, component plastic issues since car are build to be cheaper & recycleable, electronic nightmares, etc. It's just a matter of residual for the manufacture & sell you the next new model.

    It used to be, you buy a luxury car & expect it to last at least 10 years of trouble free issues. Now, I don't even know why they even call them luxury or sports car. Since, they are built to last less than 5 years & still have plenty of issues when new.
    Yeah, that's the thing that bothers me most. First off, my M3 has had 0 (zero) problems. It has over 50k miles on it - and every single mile most people would consider abuse. I drive the car very hard, as that's what it's for. On the other hand, the 335i is a very respectable car with a respectable engine - HOWEVER - it WASN'T MADE to handle what the S65/S54 engines could as far as abuse - because that's not it's purpose. So, we have people complain of walnut blasting, turbos failing, fuel pump failures, limp modes, cooling issues, etc... I will NOT buy a turbocharged M3 - especially after all of this has happened with the N54/N55. It's a good engine, but it's not engineered as a racebred motor. It's just not.

    So, we have the S55 - which is probably a tuned N54/55. I am more than certain they are going to address most of the issues above - however, taking an engine - and adding boost/cooling is not what an M3 is about. It used to be about having a special engine that is nearly indestructible. Drive it hard, and it rewards you - not get upset and go into limp mode because the oil temperature is too hot (or whatever).

    I am sure the car will handle great, it will be very quick (even quicker than my M3), etc... - but is it worth the 70k when all I am getting is a tuned version of an engine they use in nearly all model lines? No. It's not. This is basically (speculating here) an Alpina B3 - it's DONE already BMW! Or a bigger 1M - again, it's done! Give us something awesome - like a direct injected S54B34tu; you get the efficiency and the power (stroke it a bit to 3.4 liters). When I have the choice to spend my money on a car like this, I want something special - something that is rewarding, and most importantly something that doesn't cause issue after issue - and takes up a ton of my time.

    I understand I won't shut up about this - and it's probably annoying to some. I really am hoping that BMW navigates to this forum, and sees this (along with all the other thread of complaining in regard to this decision). This is literally an utter failure on their part. AMG is going to OWN this marketplace now, and I can see people who won't go with AMG going with Porsche if they have the money. Audi isn't really an option - although the RS5 is nice (not in the same category however). Point is, they are letting other manufacturers walk all over them - and for what? To make things cheaper for them to maintain/repair/engineer/etc. - but still charge us the same $? No thanks.

    No matter WHAT they do (in regard to the comment about lag and the intake/intercooler setup) - there will always be lag on a turbocharged car. It's inevitable. It has gotten much better than the old Turbo P cars of the late 80s/early 90s, but still - even comparing a 335i to say a G37/370z - there is a HUGE difference in response... It will never go away completely - it's physics. Unless there is some way to breathe through the turbo at all times and keep the thing spooled up at all times, there will be lag. An M car should have no lag, it should be a sharp instrument. You should be able to drive the car on it's absolute limit (cornering) - using the throttle to stay right on the verge of oversteer - this is not easy when the throttle doesn't respond appropriately to input. Yes, you will make up for this with sheer power, no doubt - but that's no fun in my book.

    Cheers.

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    only the E36 M3 in the states had a severely crippled engine

    E36's in the rest of the world are amazing!
    Severely "crippled" is a bit of an exaggeration and it was still an M motor with physical changes that the M division had a hand in unlike the N54.

    And because it had a different design as already stated it allows for a lot of interesting modification options.

  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    factory tuned (though more modified than this article indicated i believe) with two turbos last time i read? so a FAIR bit different to the base model N55?
    Turbo count changes the motor in your mind?

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    And in regard to the m135i and the 1M - we already have it. Why make a 3 series with the exact same $#@!?
    Exactly, f'ing boring. Main different will be power and of course the suspension, brakes. Not the power delivery, a race car derived motor, etc.

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
    I think the M4 msrp is going to shock some people.
    The M5/M6 shocked me... just not in the right way.

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
    Granted, it didn't have its own engine, but in the 1 series class I can understand that this is cost-wise not doable, and certainly not in the limited timespan they had at their disposal.
    Of course it's doable. They didn't do it to save money. And it wasn't a big money maker anyway with a limited run.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
    What counts is the result of the overall package, in the end.
    So the E30 M3, E36 M3, E28 M5, E34 M5, E39 M5, E46 M3, E92 M3, or E60 M5, would all be just as good as their lil brother in the lineup if they just had the exact same motor with a little software tuning? Because they overall package would still handle and feel great?

    And this would affect the racing programs how?

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by danniexi Click here to enlarge
    Agreed.

    Dare I say it (and I'll probably get flamed for this), but in my perspective, the ///M cars are NOT about engines. It's all about the chassis + suspension. The 1M success proves this.
    Then why even bother with more power or engine changes?

    Um, M cars are about the car as a whole. They are not about just the chassis and suspension, they are about the entire experience not just a one dimensional interpretation of it.

  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    Still it absolutely doesn't compare to the s50/s54.
    No independent TB's, about 240bhp and I think it redlines in the low 7000rpm's.
    That's nothing compared to the s50 (as a period rival). It's basically a souped up m52 imho. And that's what bmw is planning now too.
    History repeats itself Click here to enlarge (just like the recently introduced M### badge Click here to enlarge)
    But it's still an M motor. It also was likely a function of cost at that time. M was not the mass produced garbage it is now. You would have 1 or 2 M models at a time at most and that's it. Each one was very, very special.

    The S52 still is an "S" motor.

    And this is not history repeated itself as after the S52 we got the S54, S62, S85, and S65. Now we have BMW directly stating this will never happen again, no more unique M motors. That isn't history repeating itself it's completely different.

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Severely "crippled" is a bit of an exaggeration and it was still an M motor with physical changes that the M division had a hand in unlike the N54.

    And because it had a different design as already stated it allows for a lot of interesting modification options.
    i guess if you buy and plan for the aftermarket.. but the euro 3.2's making 320bhp compared to the USA ones making 240, it's a big difference to start with.
    what were the basic changes compared to base model motors?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Turbo count changes the motor in your mind?
    different ECU software, accesories (IC, piping, charge piping).. i'll assume they'll be better turbos from the factory, models/features up (be nice if they were VGT haha)

    and i'm going to go ahead and ASSUME different cams/internals (not neccessarily to do with the added turbo of course lol).. plus there's still rumors of the electric compressor of some sort for low end? or is that totally debunked?

    oh and the number one thing in my mind as to how they could ruin the m-motor... getting lazy with the head and manifolds, the S85 manifolds are a perfectly functional messy as hell work of art.. the S65's too etc.. and the head work/valves etc. in S motors are always a solid SOLID step above non-M

    the turbos more than anything would let them be lazy... if not, it not only shows they're still standing true from an engineering standpoint, it gives the S55 a biiiiiiig advantage over the N55.

  17. #67
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    i guess if you buy and plan for the aftermarket.. but the euro 3.2's making 320bhp compared to the USA ones making 240, it's a big difference to start with.
    what were the basic changes compared to base model motors?
    There wasn't a huge difference in torque though.

    The Euro motor had a higher redline, better valves/heads, cams I think, and ITB's. It was making more power up top. You could make some basic changes to the S52 to regain some power.

  18. #68
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    different ECU software, accesories (IC, piping, charge piping).. i'll assume they'll be better turbos from the factory, models/features up (be nice if they were VGT haha)

    and i'm going to go ahead and ASSUME different cams/internals (not neccessarily to do with the added turbo of course lol).. plus there's still rumors of the electric compressor of some sort for low end? or is that totally debunked?

    oh and the number one thing in my mind as to how they could ruin the m-motor... getting lazy with the head and manifolds, the S85 manifolds are a perfectly functional messy as hell work of art.. the S65's too etc.. and the head work/valves etc. in S motors are always a solid SOLID step above non-M

    the turbos more than anything would let them be lazy... if not, it not only shows they're still standing true from an engineering standpoint, it gives the S55 a biiiiiiig advantage over the N55.
    We'll see what it has changed but the turbo count doesn't change the base motor. It can have 30 turbos for all I care.

    Yes, definitely allow them to be lazy which I hate. The N54 in the 1M was enough laziness for me.

  19. #69
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    But it's still an M motor.

    The S52 still is an "S" motor.
    No it is not. The s52 is a development of the us spec m52 engine.
    You talk about race car derived engines, but this is not. It's a rework of a cast iron m52 developed for countries with poor gasoline quality.
    It has the non hydraulic valve lifters, but it cannot redline as high as its high performance s50/s54 rivals can. That means poor power. The specific power output is 75hp/litre, and that's just not really spectacular, also not in those days. It's european m52b28 mainstream brother does just 5hp/litre less, but for that you get a lighter enigne (aluminium), a more stable valvetrain (hydraulic valve lifters, no maintanance) etc.
    The S52 would fit nicely in a 90's /m line package, just like the 80's m535i and the current m135. Just a tiny bit more power for that 'sportspackage'

    I relate to your opinion about the need for engines in an m car that have a designfilosophy that puts the emphasis on performance and not on durability/fuel economy/practicality etc, and I think that a block designed from the ground up for that will have more potential. Especially considering the price bmw charges for a m3/m5 etc. I mean: an m5 starts at 50% more than the 550i. For that kind of difference you'd expect something special and not a handful of bolt-on stuff. The more an /m car is related to it's normal brother, the less money bmw can charge for it.
    BMW is looking very closely at audi I think. Doesn't the new RS6 have a souped up version of the S6 engine?
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  20. #70
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    No it is not. The s52 is a development of the us spec m52 engine.
    I'm sorry, you work at BMW and dictate the motor names? Because BMW chose to name the S52 an "S" 52 not an "M" 52 because the M division was involved with it and it's an M motor. No debating this, fact, S50B30US.

    Just because it doesn't equal the S50B32 which still holds its own today doesn't mean it isn't an M motor.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    You talk about race car derived engines, but this is not. It's a rework of a cast iron m52 developed for countries with poor gasoline quality.
    So then the S54 is just a rework of the S50. And the S50 is just a rework of the M50 by your logic yet you are not discounting the S50 at all? Hypocritical criteria?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    The specific power output is 75hp/litre, and that's just not really spectacular, also not in those days. It's european m52b28 mainstream brother does just 5hp/litre less, but for that you get a lighter enigne (aluminium), a more stable valvetrain (hydraulic valve lifters, no maintanance) etc.
    The S52 would fit nicely in a 90's /m line package, just like the 80's m535i and the current m135. Just a tiny bit more power for that 'sportspackage'
    And? It's still an S motor and still massaged by the M division. In the 1M they just took an N54 laying around and called it a day. "N" 54, not an "S" 54 for a reason.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    Doesn't the new RS6 have a souped up version of the S6 engine?
    Yep. The previous gen had a V10 Twin Turbo though not available in the S6. But these are also turbo motors with BMW M what made them special was how they would tackle the motor interdependently for that mode. You couldn't get the m3's motor in anything else in the lineup (Z4M notwithstanding but you get my point).

  21. #71
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    It has the non hydraulic valve lifters,
    I believe you wrong btw, the S50 has hydraulic lifters.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm sorry, you work at BMW and dictate the motor names? Because BMW chose to name the S52 an "S" 52 not an "M" 52 because the M division was involved with it and it's an M motor. No debating this, fact, S50B30US.
    Yes I know it has an S letter but I but you wrote it as 'S' engine, as if it would be something special. Now, in the first place: letters don't mean anything to me, so I'm not quite sure what you ment. If they'd called it a 'Q' engine it would still be the same parts bin engine imho.


    And? It's still an S motor and still massaged by the M division.
    And they did a lousy job at it. How else can you explain the power difference between a eurospec e36m3 and a usaspec e36m3. Because thats what it's about. On the one hand 'M' division (all bmw) makes an epic engine for it's time, and on the other hand they make another engine for the same car which lags 80HP in power. I mean: 80hp is a lot extra on 240hp.

    In the 1M they just took an N54 laying around and called it a day. "N" 54, not an "S" 54 for a reason.
    You seem to have a religious belief in the meaning of single letters? I judge a product by its characteristics and price; not by what kind of marketingtag the manufacturer has put on it.
    Don't forget that the 1m was a lot cheaper than a m3. Everything comes at a price. I don't know what the price difference was between a euro e36m3 and a usa e36m3 (difficult to tell with all the taxes etc).


    Yep. The previous gen had a V10 Twin Turbo though not available in the S6. But these are also turbo motors with BMW M what made them special was how they would tackle the motor interdependently for that mode. You couldn't get the m3's motor in anything else in the lineup (Z4M notwithstanding but you get my point).
    That's why I'm saying that BMW is going to plot the same designcourse as audi is doing now. (not only the 4 series namechange, but also using an engine in the top performance line which can be found (partly detuned) in lower models.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I believe you wrong btw, the S50 has hydraulic lifters.
    Yes you're right. So much for the 'special' design treatment as it proves my point even further; they didn't even bother to change that. The complete valvetrain is made up of mainstream components which are also found in engines like the m43 etc. Not much 'race bred' if you ask me.
    Especially when they had that s50 laying around too, with all the race influenced goodies.
    Last edited by GuidoK; 05-06-2013 at 11:04 PM.
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  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    Yes I know it has an S letter but I but you wrote it as 'S' engine, as if it would be something special. Now, in the first place: letters don't mean anything to me, so I'm not quite sure what you ment. If they'd called it a 'Q' engine it would still be the same parts bin engine imho.
    It's an S motor. It isn't an M50 with different software once again. It has hardware changes and was touched by the M divisoin.

    Letters don't mean anything to you? Well they do to BMW, let me explain:

    Click here to enlarge

    Even if you don't think the S50US motor is all that great it's still an M motor worked on by M. Hence the "S" letter which is pretty important.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    And they did a lousy job at it. How else can you explain the power difference between a eurospec e36m3 and a usaspec e36m3. Because thats what it's about. On the one hand 'M' division (all bmw) makes an epic engine for it's time, and on the other hand they make another engine for the same car which lags 80HP in power. I mean: 80hp is a lot extra on 240hp.
    Lousy job? The torque is the same it's all up top. It's still an M motor and with the single throttle body it actually can be and often is a better forced induction/tuner platform.

    The difference wasn't 80 hp it was 43 hp with the S50B30 you're exagerrating it to suit you now. The S50B32 came later and the US motor was updated as well with the S52.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    You seem to have a religious belief in the meaning of single letters? I judge a product by its characteristics and price; not by what kind of marketingtag the manufacturer has put on it.
    The letters do help don't they? Don't they tell you BMW just stuck a non-M motor in an M car? That's exactly what they did, no way around it. I don't care how you judge it doesn't change this fact. This was the beginning of the end.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    Don't forget that the 1m was a lot cheaper than a m3. Everything comes at a price.
    Good for them taking advantage of morons.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    That's why I'm saying that BMW is going to plot the same designcourse as audi is doing now. (not only the 4 series namechange, but also using an engine in the top performance line which can be found (partly detuned) in lower models.
    Audi already had done turbo motors with various outputs, this is nothing new. Audi didn't have the motor philosophy of M. This is not applicable, BMW has lost their way.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
    Yes you're right. So much for the 'special' design treatment as it proves my point even further; they didn't even bother to change that.
    And you can't think of any advantages to hydraulic lifters?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's an S motor. It isn't an M50 with different software once again.
    And I never said that.

    It has hardware changes and was touched by the M divisoin.
    And somehow the figures the s52 produced do take the charm of that away.... doesn't it. 240bhp in an 3,2litre iron block, at the same time they could also produce 321bhp. It's not an prestige object, the s52. Unless you're thinking: hey.....240bhp is nearly 321bhp....
    Face it: "M" division is a badge. Wether or not they make a good product depends on the product, and not on what badge bmw puts on it. And with the eurospec s50b32 they made a great engine far better than the s52b32

    The difference wasn't 80 hp it was 43 hp with the S50B30 you're exagerrating it to suit you now. The S50B32 came later and the US motor was updated as well with the S52.
    No, this discussion is about the s52:
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The S52 still is an "S" motor.
    But even the comparison between the s50b30 and s50b30US is 43hp, and that stil means that the euro spec engine makes 18% more power. And that is also considerable.

    It's still an M motor and with the single throttle body it actually can be and often is a better forced induction/tuner platform.
    Then they should have charged it. Now they left it alone......underpowered.

    Audi didn't have the motor philosophy of M. This is not applicable
    The previous rs6 had an engine not found in any other of the 6 series, so I think it's applicable Click here to enlarge

    And you can't think of any advantages to hydraulic lifters?
    Yes, as I already have named one as a matter of fact.
    E85 Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ | Quaife ATB LSD | Custom Brembo BBK front/rear | Schrick cams | Schmiedmann headers/cats | Powerflex/strongflex/PSB PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars

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