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  1. #126
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    To be honest, the Alpina TCU software is ok, but not the game changer we need. It just changes the "box" shift points and behavior and maybe some aspect around shifting. But not the "now I will not have issues" solution.

  2. #127
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RTA Click here to enlarge
    To be honest, the Alpina TCU software is ok, but not the game changer we need. It just changes the "box" shift points and behavior and maybe some aspect around shifting. But not the "now I will not have issues" solution.
    What do you feel would be a game changer so to speak?
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  3. #128
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    correct

    @george smooth
    Did he modify the TCU or the ECU settings regarding the rpm's?

    The talk in the town is that the encryption key is still not decrypted, required to start modifying the TCU firmware. This is holding things back. But if some parties have access then that could be a start to a real solution.

    Quite interested in how and what they accomplished ....

  4. #129
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What do you feel would be a game changer so to speak?
    Full control of the TCU in such way that we can adjust the software, pressure, adaption towards the improved mechanical parts.
    The issue with hardening an AT in a proper way is to maintain balance among the parts and optimize the benefits by adjusting the software around these parts. A improper balanced gearbox will lead to potential more wear....
    It's impossible to re-balance a gearbox with new parts without adjusting the software. Although just before I crashed my car we started to look into the adaption abilities of the ZF box. we wanted to understand if the box could only adapt to wear (which it does) or maybe also to improved parts, this was a kind of longshot... but could work.
    Adaption by the way, especialy after a gearbox adaption reset is a very delicate process, many on the forums are wrongly informed, adaption resets should not be done without applying the proper procedures. Going WOT after a reset might give you serieus wear on mid and long term. Adaption of the gearbox should be done by:

    - Reset
    - Warm the car until the gearbox reached a temp of 90 degrees, do this by normal driving, no high reving.
    - When temps are achieved, start easy on the car and go trough the gears without hammering. Do this for 20-30 minutes, just normal highway driving
    - Your box should be proper adapted after that.
    - Stay easy for 60 miles.

    This would lead to proper adjustment and optimum adaption of the gearbox. Adaption is mostly about allowing the gearbox to figure out what state of wear the mechanical box parts are about and compensate for that. It fills a couple of tables with this information and incorporates that in how it manages the box.

  5. #130
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RTA Click here to enlarge
    Full control of the TCU in such way that we can adjust the software, pressure, adaption towards the improved mechanical parts.
    The issue with hardening an AT in a proper way is to maintain balance among the parts and optimize the benefits by adjusting the software around these parts. A improper balanced gearbox will lead to potential more wear....
    It's impossible to re-balance a gearbox with new parts without adjusting the software. Although just before I crashed my car we started to look into the adaption abilities of the ZF box. we wanted to understand if the box could only adapt to wear (which it does) or maybe also to improved parts, this was a kind of longshot... but could work.
    Adaption by the way, especialy after a gearbox adaption reset is a very delicate process, many on the forums are wrongly informed, adaption resets should not be done without applying the proper procedures. Going WOT after a reset might give you serieus wear on mid and long term. Adaption of the gearbox should be done by:

    - Reset
    - Warm the car until the gearbox reached a temp of 90 degrees, do this by normal driving, no high reving.
    - When temps are achieved, start easy on the car and go trough the gears without hammering. Do this for 20-30 minutes, just normal highway driving
    - Your box should be proper adapted after that.
    - Stay easy for 60 miles.

    This would lead to proper adjustment and optimum adaption of the gearbox. Adaption is mostly about allowing the gearbox to figure out what state of wear the mechanical box parts are about and compensate for that. It fills a couple of tables with this information and incorporates that in how it manages the box.
    Wouldn't that be nice. You'll eventually have this. We'll all just be in flying cars by then.
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  6. #131
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    Lol, but as mentioned, this was my plan, my e92 with AT is not longer on this planet and my new one has a DCT. Actually the same counts for the DCT more or less. TCU access is required to perform a proper and sustainable upgrade. This is the main reason why I do not believe in the effort of Level10 and SSP. They do not modify the software which can never be a good upgrade path.

  7. #132
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RTA Click here to enlarge
    To be honest, the Alpina TCU software is ok, but not the game changer we need. It just changes the "box" shift points and behavior and maybe some aspect around shifting. But not the "now I will not have issues" solution.
    Well there are several other changes, especially for handling more torque. Without the Alpina TCU many COBB and JB4 users report shifting problems, but with the alpina version there are mostly gone. The TCU seems to detect too much torque und reacts to that, so Alpina raised the limit to at least 400 lbf ft (OE 330)... so you're right 450 lbs ft should work out fine.

    But is the torque limit really the problem? You could get more HP with keeping torque in high revs.

  8. #133
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    Actualy it all come backs to temps... Temps is the biggest issue, caused by a couple of factors:

    - Cooling capacity of the box
    - Materials used by ZF
    - Type of ATF used
    - Incorrect DME feeds from piggies resulting in suboptimal gearbox utilization (I'm a piggy user, so do not take me wrong here)
    - TCU not prepped for the torque after tuning

    In the end it's about mass and the ability to keep things cool, next to that you want to increase the torque capapibilities by improved materials/component design, these adjustments you want to have reflected in the software.

    I have to agree, the Alpina software has some raised values, leading to a better driveability, but we will never know if this also leads to less wear. I assume it will benefit a bit as I suspect that Alpina also slightly increased oil pressure in the box.

    Small tip for DCT owners: always drive with sport button on! It has a positive effect on the oil pressure, leading to firmer shifts, less slip, less wear.

    Torque leads to heat/energy something the box can simple not handle at this moment. But heat is the start, the cause is the hard and software configuration... anyway.. would be fun to see somebody taking action to get the TCU unlocked.. hope this input inspires some engineers...

  9. #134
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RTA Click here to enlarge
    Actualy it all come backs to temps...

    Torque leads to heat/energy something the box can simple not handle at this moment. But heat is the start, the cause is the hard and software configuration... anyway.. would be fun to see somebody taking action to get the TCU unlocked.. hope this input inspires some engineers...
    Thats why Alpina uses the additionel watercooler and stronger radiator out of the BMW Power Performance Kit, as it also indirectly cools the gearbox.

    But there are also tourque handling problems while the gearbox is completly cool...

  10. #135
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    But that PKK Rad is used for 340Whp, not for the 500WHP we intend to bang against our AT's.... :-)
    Gearbox is always a bit behind/below the engine temps compared, but can and will also fluctuate much more then the engine itself. Gearbox is fully operational when the oil temp on the box is 90 degrees celcius and below 105 degrees. Above 105 degrees and you have to change your ATF as it became useless. The temp relation between your engine and gearbox is not linear but dynamic depending on how your drive the car, flooring and doing a lot of gears is a temp explosion for the box. Also racetracks are killers, to less cooling and to much acceleration.



    I think ER is doing the best job in terms of oil cooling capacity, most of the other stuff is quite useless for our application. Also do not play with the thermostat... engine AND gearbox need proper warming up. Taking out the thermostat is tampering that process. When you take out the Thermostat be aware that you can not hammer at all till your engine is fully warmed up. This is significant.

  11. #136
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RTA Click here to enlarge
    Actualy it all come backs to temps... Temps is the biggest issue, caused by a couple of factors:

    - Cooling capacity of the box
    - Materials used by ZF
    - Type of ATF used
    - Incorrect DME feeds from piggies resulting in suboptimal gearbox utilization (I'm a piggy user, so do not take me wrong here)
    - TCU not prepped for the torque after tuning

    In the end it's about mass and the ability to keep things cool, next to that you want to increase the torque capapibilities by improved materials/component design, these adjustments you want to have reflected in the software.

    I have to agree, the Alpina software has some raised values, leading to a better driveability, but we will never know if this also leads to less wear. I assume it will benefit a bit as I suspect that Alpina also slightly increased oil pressure in the box.

    Small tip for DCT owners: always drive with sport button on! It has a positive effect on the oil pressure, leading to firmer shifts, less slip, less wear.

    Torque leads to heat/energy something the box can simple not handle at this moment. But heat is the start, the cause is the hard and software configuration... anyway.. would be fun to see somebody taking action to get the TCU unlocked.. hope this input inspires some engineers...
    Any idea on the length of the encryption key? If BMW encrypted their firmware as well as they do the car keys perhaps we are in luck and can easily brute force them like the videos we see on youtube.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RTA Click here to enlarge
    But that PKK Rad is used for 340Whp, not for the 500WHP we intend to bang against our AT's.... :-)
    Gearbox is always a bit behind/below the engine temps compared, but can and will also fluctuate much more then the engine itself. Gearbox is fully operational when the oil temp on the box is 90 degrees celcius and below 105 degrees. Above 105 degrees and you have to change your ATF as it became useless. The temp relation between your engine and gearbox is not linear but dynamic depending on how your drive the car, flooring and doing a lot of gears is a temp explosion for the box. Also racetracks are killers, to less cooling and to much acceleration.



    I think ER is doing the best job in terms of oil cooling capacity, most of the other stuff is quite useless for our application. Also do not play with the thermostat... engine AND gearbox need proper warming up. Taking out the thermostat is tampering that process. When you take out the Thermostat be aware that you can not hammer at all till your engine is fully warmed up. This is significant.
    Gearbox and engine don't share the same oil circuit, but the water circuit is combined (heat exchanger, gear oil cooled by engine water). So you better invest in propper watercooling than oil cooling.

    ER is way overpriced... you could do the same with simple setrab cores...

  13. #138
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bv1 Click here to enlarge
    Any idea on the length of the encryption key? If BMW encrypted their firmware as well as they do the car keys perhaps we are in luck and can easily brute force them like the videos we see on youtube.
    No 100% but it is a long one, do not pin me on it, but I thought that I read somewhere that were are dealing with a 1024 bit key.

  14. #139
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    1024 bits is incredible. AES only uses up to a 256 bit key I believe. Do we have any idea what processor is built into the TCU? A good starting point may be to look at what processor is used and see if that company has any application notes on secure bootloaders or flash encryption.
    Eppur si muove.

  15. #140
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RTA Click here to enlarge
    Did he modify the TCU or the ECU settings regarding the rpm's?
    pretty sure it was tcu, i could be wrong though

  16. #141
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RTA Click here to enlarge
    Small tip for DCT owners: always drive with sport button on! It has a positive effect on the oil pressure, leading to firmer shifts, less slip, less wear.
    this should be common knowledge, and i always keep mine the most aggressive. I also think the defov lockdown helped a lot by minimizing the movement, letting it do its job more effeciently

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