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  1. #76
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    Whether the injectors need upgrading yet or not, is not really relevant. On stock injectors you can fuel until hpfp pressure crashes. Tony has proven that by stabilizing hpfp pressure, the injectors are good for 725whp on pump, but not e85 yet. Trims aside as that's more a dme thing, you can assume the injectors are good until at least there, all the way to 7200rpm I believe.

    Not saying don't look into it, but the hpfp pressure drops are the most important to the majority of the market. Larger injectors would not make any difference there.

    As of now if I wasn't leaving my e85 safe zone I'd have Tony's pump in the mail, but as always I'm in for results. If you want to succeed outside of nazipost, you don't need a page of tech. Here, all you need is dyno's, logs, fair price, and some regular posters support. Ak335 is your best bet in that regard.

    Good luck. While I applaud you if you did in fact screw the srt4 guys, the bimmer community has proven to be a tough crowd, especially on the sensitive subject of hpfp's.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Whether the injectors need upgrading yet or not, is not really relevant. On stock injectors you can fuel until hpfp pressure crashes. Tony has proven that by stabilizing hpfp pressure, the injectors are good for 725whp on pump, but not e85 yet. Trims aside as that's more a dme thing, you can assume the injectors are good until at least there, all the way to 7200rpm I believe.

    Not saying don't look into it, but the hpfp pressure drops are the most important to the majority of the market. Larger injectors would not make any difference there.

    As of now if I wasn't leaving my e85 safe zone I'd have Tony's pump in the mail, but as always I'm in for results. If you want to succeed outside of nazipost, you don't need a page of tech. Here, all you need is dyno's, logs, fair price, and some regular posters support. Ak335 is your best bet in that regard.

    Good luck. While I applaud you if you did in fact screw the srt4 guys, the bimmer community has proven to be a tough crowd, especially on the sensitive subject of hpfp's.
    For your enjoyment I have been running quite high percentages of E85 in the stage 3 car just doing some around the shop testing before I pull the kit. Trims are still negative, D had to adjust the scaler to ensure everything would be fine, but even with the meth off and E85 in the tank, fuel is plentiful and the car is happy..Click here to enlarge

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    WTF is PTP/HPFP/TORK/ASS-HAT John doing here now? - seriously, he jumps from platform to platform boasting his $#@!ty HPFPs - meanwhile, back at the ranch, he's giving everyone the run-around and dicking people over all the time

    DONT BELIEVE HIM
    I WOULDN'T COME TO THIS FORUM TO TELL YOU THIS IF I DIDNT MEAN IT
    THERE HAVE BEEN TOO MANY OCCASIONS WHERE JOHN HAS HAD FAILING PUMPS AND HE FAILS TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!

    consider this your warning, all of you
    from one car guy to another -- do NOT trust this guy

    he has had to change his business name so many times because people keep learning about how $#@!ty his service and products are -- so whenever he changes platforms, he has to change his name so he wont be recognized

    GIVE IT UP, JOHN - YOU'RE NOT FOOLING ANYONE

  4. #79
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hpfpupgrade Click here to enlarge
    If you have a chance PM me with his name.
    He's the only guy selling Single Turbo kits for the N54
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


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  5. #80
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hpfpupgrade Click here to enlarge
    You need more right? You don't want to run methanol? Not a problem.

    14 months ago I took on the BMW fuel pump, injectors and in tank module in hopes to get a higher flowing system for you guys. After months of wrecking several fuel pumps and $1000's of dollars in cut apart injectors we finally have something that flows more fuel. We didn't put much effort into the in-tank upgrade because one was already done from a different vendor.

    The injectors:

    OMG!!! What was BMW thinking? You cannot pull them apart without damaging the dampener inside them (yes they have what appears to be a small fluid dampening unit inside the injectors). Not only this but they are reverse pintle design (seals on the cone side). We are still working on a way to open the injector and machine them but applying power to a spinning injector is turning out to be more difficult than we though. We are still working on a solution for bigger injectors, but more on this later.

    The HPFP:

    Wow, what a wonderful piece of artwork BMW gave us to work with. I am really surprised on the operating parameters of this pump and the pressures it can build based on the design. The first things we noticed are the restrictions in the pump cavity's. Some of them are so small its amazing it moves any volume at all. Next, the pump is RPM limited due to the light spring pressures for the piston and pressure chamber. Pump testing on the pump dyno proved to be more difficult than planned but after building an oil pre-pressure and fill chamber we finally had a working test stand to dyno fuel pumps with.

    Now that you have some of the details of the parts I can share with you how we make them better.

    The injectors can be machined but need to be opened in order to do the machine process. We are working on this and hope to have a solution before the end of summer.

    The fuel pump we have a 18-20% higher flowing unit right now and have a 35-40% higher flowing unit planned end of summer. We tear down the fuel pump to its base items (custom tools were made to tear the pumps down). Every part is kept in a clean room so no dust, dirt or debris can get on or inside the pump. We start off with reworking the springs, not going to tell you which one's or how much additional we add but it will provide a more stable fuel pressure and extends the RPM band to 8,000 RPM. Then we start massaging the passages inside the fuel pump. We have found its possible to get 60% more flow out of the pump with to much port opening, problem being... idle quality and pressure control turn to crap. It took several fuel pumps to find how much .002 of a difference really made, LOL. Then we run the pumps on the pump dyno with the oil controlled pressure chamber (freaking really BMW?) pressurizing the pumping head on the HPFP. When we are all done with testing and machining a Stage 1 fuel pump... we have a pump that moves enough fuel to feed 600 WHP without methanol and a proper tune. Stage 2 fuel pumps, well... that is a different beast! We machine new pump pistons (all 3) and new pressure build chambers. Perform all the Stage 1 pump upgrades and you have a fuel pump that should supply 700 + WHP worth of fuel without methanol and a proper tune.

    Now, before you guys start asking for pictures... understand we have a lot of R&D wrapped up into these fuel pumps. I don't want to leak any of the visual details of what we are doing to the competition, so keep that in mind. We are also keeping pricing in check, we don't see a need to gouge you guys for additional fuel or create competition from over pricing. All our fuel systems come with a modified fuel rail. This modification helps with the lean condition for 4-6 cylinders.

    Every fuel pump we modify will be brand new. We do not want to risk getting a revision 3 or 4 fuel pump just to have it fail after we modify it. We start off with the latest revision from BMW and apply our upgrade's to that fuel pump. This way everyone knows they are getting the best product from BMW and from us.

    We will have two customers cars running our fuel pumps in the coming weeks, both of them will be able to push the full potential of our Stage 1 and 2 fuel pumps.

    If you have any questions please feel free to contact me.

    Thanks,

    John
    two questions

    1 - is upgrading the injectors really necessary? last i heard they were something like 2000cc/min or soething from the factory which is HUGE

    2- so... you're making.. well "600 WHP without methanol and a proper tune. Stage 2 fuel pumps, well... that is a different beast! We machine new pump pistons (all 3) and new pressure build chambers. Perform all the Stage 1 pump upgrades and you have a fuel pump that should supply 700 + WHP worth of fuel without methanol and a proper tune."

    but the vargas system already exceeds your 'stage 2' expectation by making 720whp no meth on E85 (with room to spare/negative trims).. so there's MILES on race gas.

    this is an AWESOME update, but with the specs/expectations you've stated, unless it's priced to match.. too little too late almost?

  6. #81
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hpfpupgrade Click here to enlarge


    I understand you are looking out for the interests of the forums members, but even you have to think its a little odd that right after you talked with me and got your fuel pump back... all the sudden you have an upgrade? Again, we are not going to get into a bickering contest of he said she said, we will let the products speak for themselfs. You have set the standard, now we have to up the ante'.
    but that's what happens?

    easiest option is to find someone else to do the hard work

    when that falls through you do it yourself through necessity?

    that's some pretty subtle accusing there...

  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I understand there is informing the community and then jumping all over competition.

    Tony, when Rob did this to you... how did that go? You were unproven, supposedly unreliable, with a checkered past, etc.

    I saw this guy at least deserves a chance to prove himself. Nobody is buying anything yet. Proof will be in the pudding. If he can't hang it will sort itself out.
    except tony didn't have a 'checkered past' he was just unknown and unproven..?

    completely different.

    the only thing i care about is the inaccurate requirements and performance potential claims.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    This. I dunno where this injector bull$#@! came from, but fuel supply is not an issue with the injectors right now. Last I recall, they flow 2300cc/min worth of fuel; which is plenty.
    that's what i thought.. even if they're the lowest stated i've seen (1100cc/min) that's about 1050-1100 crank horsepower capable (i estimate 450 crank per 2200-2300CC/min)

    and if the're at you're estimate, (2300CC/min) that's more like ... well, you know, 2000hp+ (LOL)

    either way.. heeeaps plenty.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    For your enjoyment I have been running quite high percentages of E85 in the stage 3 car just doing some around the shop testing before I pull the kit. Trims are still negative, D had to adjust the scaler to ensure everything would be fine, but even with the meth off and E85 in the tank, fuel is plentiful and the car is happy..Click here to enlarge
    I knew it, I was a believer from the start.... Awesome news. Hope mine will be ready to ship soon then, so that D can optimize my RB turbos for full E85 Click here to enlarge
    E92 335i 2008 Space Grey 6MT | RB turbos | Quaife LSD | M3 Suspension kit | Íhlins Road & Track Coilover | DEFIVfab N54 diff lockdown kit | COBB PTF E50 map | Walbro E85 455 LPH LPFP | NGK 5992 plugs | Wagner FMIC | Wagner 3" DP | Milltek exhaust | Trueform Tech Intake System | Tial BOV | Motiv PI Stage 1 w/AIC | SPEC Stage 3+ clutch | SPEC SSM Flywheel | BMS CDV | 60-130 mph 7.55 s | 100-200 kmh 6.57 s

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    Excuse me ignorance, but can we accurately say Injectors X on a PI motor are capable of moving XXXXX CC/Min and are capable of producing XXXX WHP, thus same injectors will translate to the same WHP on a DI motor. I just don't see a reason behind why BMW would put injectors that are capable of 2,000 WHP+ on the N54/N55 DI motors, and then "cut corners" with injectors on the S65, unless there's a legit reason (like, the "ratings" don't translate).


    BUT this is question, so far all I know Injector Capability doesn't change between a PI & DI motor Click here to enlarge
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    I'm not going to search for the thread were dubversion was explaining what he had been getting from the guy that helped engineer the n54 fuel system. But from what I remember it had to do with BMW wanting the car to be able to maintain something like 60mph in limp mode if the hpfp were to fail. That might not have been why the injectors are able to flow as much as they do, but that thread is pretty old and I'm to lazy to go read it again.

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    hmmm can a vendor be neg reped so they cant post also?

    honest question
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hpfpupgrade Click here to enlarge
    I understand you are looking out for the interests of the forums members, but even you have to think its a little odd that right after you talked with me and got your fuel pump back... all the sudden you have an upgrade? Again, we are not going to get into a bickering contest of he said she said, we will let the products speak for themselfs. You have set the standard, now we have to up the ante'.
    my thoughts exactly..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    This. I dunno where this injector bull$#@! came from, but fuel supply is not an issue with the injectors right now. Last I recall, they flow 2300cc/min worth of fuel; which is plenty.
    you sure thats not psi, and not cc/min..?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    but that's what happens?

    easiest option is to find someone else to do the hard work

    when that falls through you do it yourself through necessity?

    that's some pretty subtle accusing there...
    +1
    If he didn't do anything to the pump then how the hell is Tony magically stealing his fueling upgrades? If time moves in a linear direction(which appears to do) then wouldn't that involve time travel on Tony's end to go 3 weeks into the future to steal a pump that isn't even released?
    Click here to enlarge
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    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=34

    "The injectors have a maximum of 40 mg/ms spray at 200 bar. This is an incredible amount of fuel, much much more than any solenoid injector. It is this high, because when we designed the application, BMW insisted that the engine must be able - in limp mode - to only use the LPFP pressure, which is 5 bar, and still drive the vehicle at 170 km/h."

    40 mg/ms = 318 lbs/hr = 3243 cc/min
    170 km/hr = 106 mph

    I used 0.74 kg/l for gasoline and 2.205 lbs/kg. But remember, this is at the upper limit of pressure, 200 bar - that's 2900 psi. I think the flow rate would increase logarithmically with pressure, up to a point, then level off. Maybe someone who actually took a fluid dynamics class could comment.

    Regardless, with a HPFP that can maintain its pressure, that is still a lot of fuel.

  17. #92
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    When comparing injector size to PFI, be sure to remember the injection window is much narrower on DI as rpm increases, so impressive flow ratings get a little gimped.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    When comparing injector size to PFI, be sure to remember the injection window is much narrower on DI as rpm increases, so impressive flow ratings get a little gimped.
    I'm sure that is why the flow rate is specified in milliseconds.

    I would like to see a log of injector pulse width for a pull like the Vargas/PTF 725whp.

    The mysterious fuel system engineer did indicate in homogenous mode, the injection window is open from the intake stroke to a portion of the compression stroke. I think in stratified mode the windows is super narrow as it is only open for a portion of the compression stroke. The N54 does not operate in stratified mode, however.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    I'm sure that is why the flow rate is specified in milliseconds.

    I would like to see a log of injector pulse width for a pull like the Vargas/PTF 725whp.

    The mysterious fuel system engineer did indicate in homogenous mode, the injection window is open from the intake stroke to a portion of the compression stroke. I think in stratified mode the windows is super narrow as it is only open for a portion of the compression stroke. The N54 does not operate in stratified mode, however.
    It would also be nice to see exactly when during the intake or compression stroke the injectors start/stop.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    you sure thats not psi, and not cc/min..?
    Quite certain. Why would I confuse the two?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hpfpupgrade Click here to enlarge
    I understand you are looking out for the interests of the forums members, but even you have to think its a little odd that right after you talked with me and got your fuel pump back... all the sudden you have an upgrade? Again, we are not going to get into a bickering contest of he said she said, we will let the products speak for themselfs. You have set the standard, now we have to up the ante'.

    John
    You have got to be like 100% $#@!ting me. Bahahahaha. Dude, you remember what you told me on the phone. You told me for your stage 1 pump upgrade you move the inlet of the pump from its normal position to a different position to get rid of the restriction, then you need come up with a new feed line to route to the new feed location. THATS ALL YOU SAID, besides some more bs about how you are coming up with stage 2 just send you my pump and the planets will allign, blah blah blah blah! Oh ps, we tried moving the inlet, lot of extra welding and work for nothing. And to be clear, I can post dates if I need to, pretty sure it was at least a month before you sent me my UNOPENED pump back to me, before me and my fabricator figured out what we needed to do. So let me get the is straight, what you told me on the phone was tried and didn't work, and you sent me back an unmodified pump and this is how I figured out my upgrade? This guy is rich people he really is rich, if all you guys want to ignore that people are actually signing up for this forum from other platforms to warn you about how shady this guy and still trust him with your pumps. Thats your choice. But for him to say I figured out the roadblock because he threw some BS at me on the phone and sent me back an unopened box is literally laughable.

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    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=136

    A while ago I du up the Continental doc on the HPFP and injectors used in the N54. It shows 35gm/sec of static flow which is about 554hp per injector (x6!).

    The point of DI is to inject at very high pressure in very short windows right before ignition so they must flow around 10x as much as port injectors. That said, DI doesn't have to inject only right before ignition. Spraying earlier would just negate some of its benefits (some cyl cooling, wasted fuel, higher emissions, etc). There's also the issue of cylinder wall wetting using long pulses, so ideally an additional injection event would occur earlier, perhaps on the intake or compression stroke.

    The injectors will likely never be a limit on this engine because the block will fail before you run out of fuel. HPFP is a different question but hat's off to Tony V for apparently solving that problem.

    Below are snapshots of the Continental brochure (3.5mb, too big to upload) detailing the HPFP and Piezo injector from the N54.

    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    Quite certain. Why would I confuse the two?
    all good, i was confused, i thought its 1100cc but 23xxpsi pressure.

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    So not to take any sides but I would think that a business with the equipment and plans of taking an injector apart would run it through a some tests logging it's volume and spray pattern before taking it apart. At that point you would do the math to determine it's current limits at X HP and Y RPM's to determine how much more volume is needed. If that wasn't one of the first steps I definitely wouldn't be comfortable doing business with a company that can't even figure out what they are working with and what the communities needs are.
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