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Thread: "Auto Tuning"

  1. #51
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    This is not a comparison Chris. It doesn't matter what I do. This is a discussion of the procede autotuning. The procede does not have inputs for most if not all of those sensors you mentioned,"oil temps, coolant temps, baro, iats, elevation," so they can not be used for any sort of feedback loop. The only thing it does is look at timing drops. Yes, all of those parameter will affect how much boost/timing can be run but they are not individually collected and analyzed. It's riding the knock sensor. Don't make it something it's not. Sell magic somewhere else.

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    Boost learning by its nature is evaluating knock and adjusting boost as a function of perceived timing pullback. Here is the algorithm in a nutshell: Check timing. If higher than last time you have less perceived knock so increase boost incrementally. If less timing you have more perceived knock so decrease boost incrementally. Repeat.

    It's really no different than the OEM timing advance learning that we all (including the V4) rely on. Except boost is also increased/decreased in addition to timing.

    LOL at those singing the praises of "autotuning" running meth or race gas where octane is unlimited and the system will take as much boost and timing as you want to throw at it. Where a system like this earns its keep is on pump gas in octane limited environments.

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    4 out of 40 is not half, as i know of 2-3 that switched, making the NE proceeders up to about 8-9. the remaing 3x some i know/have met still run a JB becaus it does exactly what they need it to do, they are not highly modded, and have most a tune and DCI. Call BS where? on e90 where it gets deleted? tried that.

    low moderation and biased are 2 different things. I recently saw a thread yesterday that got to 4 pages, a useless thread, started by the proceed posterchild himself. had that thread not been started by him, or reversed, posted by the other camps, it would have gotten locked/deleted in minutes. but no, nutswingers, and noobs all chime in, boasting how they are the smartest for blah blah blah.. I get it, i do. uppity people buy an uppity car, so they think they have to spend the most $ to get desired results.. 99% of those peope there are not even highly modified, inluding Laloosh and JP. Other than the 2 mentioned, a good 90% of them have no desire to go as far as the vocal members are.

    lastly, good thing we were having a good civilized discussion on how it actually works, and then an ego or 2 had to get upset.. i guess the riding the knock sensor remark hurt some feelings..?
    Last edited by LostMarine; 08-20-2010 at 05:52 PM. Reason: specifics

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jpsimon Click here to enlarge
    No moderation on a car forum = Fox News meets Jerry Springer.
    Don't know why you seem to think there is no moderation. Allowing people to have an open discussion is not lack of moderation. Why you seem to require hand holding I have no idea, everyone seems to be using personal responsibility thus far.

    Closing and deleting everything isn't moderation, it is totalitarianism.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    It's really no different than the OEM timing advance learning that we all (including the V4) rely on.
    That is what I was thinking, not quite as fancy as it is made out to be and exactly how the factory DME works.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    I recently saw a thread yesterday that got to 4 pages, a useless thread, started by the proceed posterchild himself. had that thread not been started by him, or reversed, posted by the other camps, it would have gotten locked/deleted in minutes. but no, nutswingers, and noobs all chime in, boasting how they are the smartest for blah blah blah..
    I saw that thread and replied b/c I got so pissed at all the bashing and hyping and in the end all the nuthuggers turned against me, and I was accused of being a jb fanboi Click here to enlarge
    They were bashing the jb3, and the "other forum". F*ck all those nuthuggers who create those lameass posts for PR purposes, solely to degrade the competition and hype their product as if it was the greatest thing in the world and everything else sucked.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That is what I was thinking, not quite as fancy as it is made out to be and exactly how the factory DME works.
    I've been an engineer most of my life. Here is a bit of wisdom I've learned. And not just related to tuning or cars.

    Engineers will always make an algorithm sound simpler than it is. Salespeople will always make it sound more complicated than it is. I think it's a law of salesmanship just like the laws of physics. Click here to enlarge

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    The factory "auto-tuning" if that is what you want to call it, isn't a fast responding, big reacting (ie, unstable) system that is designed to protect the engine against serious knock. The Procede is a fast reacting, small stepping system that is designed to maintain a certain level of historical knock retard.

    If you turn off autotuning and eliminate all CPS offsetting (ie, Jb3 "tuning") you're historic knock activity will be, depending on conditions, will be quite high. Anyone with a Procede can do this by simple disabling autotuning and setting ignition correction to zero and then monitoring Aggression level (Debug word 6). Whereas the Procede's autotuning system is working to keep this value as close to 2 as possible, this non-autotuning, non-ignition control approach to tuning will result in Aggression level anywhere from 3 to 7 depending on variables (in the case of the jb3, map selection and ambient temps). It's a fun test to do. But anyone with a Procede probably doesn't care enough to do it.

    Shiv

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    The process doesn't monitor all those features Jason? Why is it that the tune is in valet mode untilled oil temps get past 170 then? As for it working like stock? Does stock alter for wg slop? The procede constantly alters cps offset and boost. So its not like stock that alters only boost. Hell w the procede as we know boost is independent from whatever the runs stock....it doesn't just add or take away boost like the stock ecu because the two are not linked. The rumors and specglations in this thread are from people who don't own or run the tune. Its actually funny and sad at the same time.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    The factory "auto-tuning" if that is what you want to call it, isn't a fast responding, big reacting (ie, unstable) system that is designed to protect the engine against serious knock. The Procede is a fast reacting, small stepping system that is designed to maintain a certain level of historical knock retard.
    You are saying the ECU and programming BMW chooses for the N54 isn't a fast responding, big reacting system, that is designed to protect the engine against serious knock? You are serious with this? You are actually implying the Procede is better at protecting the engine than the factory BMW system designed by Siemens? Shiv, are you high?

    I think the Procede does some very impressive piggybacking off one of the most sophisticated automotive production ECU's in the industry designed by the largest engineering congolomerate in Europe, Siemens. No offense to you, but the engineers at Siemens are on a whole different planet of ability than whomever is doing all the work on the Procede. I can't believe you are actually stating your aftermarket system that doesn't get the engineering development through its lifespan that the MSD80/81 probably received in one day is somehow superior to the factory ECU which you call unstable.

    Unstable? BMW wants to protect their motors above all to avoid paying out any warranty claims. If anything, you put more stress on the motor so there is no way it is more stable than the factory setup nor is it anywhere as sophisticated or capable in calculations. If the Procede was, why isn't it a full ECU replacement and instead it relies on the factory ECU? Secondly, the MSD80/81 monitors far more than your piggyback.

    I just find it rather funny that a small time tuner is actually stating a factory system designed by one of the premier Engineering firms in the world is unstable and doesn't respond as well as a system that is piggybacking off it. Damn bud, you really feel your box is something amazing as if it was a Pectel or Motec or something. Do people actually believe this?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    4 out of 40 is not half, as i know of 2-3 that switched, making the NE proceeders up to about 8-9. the remaing 3x some i know/have met still run a JB becaus it does exactly what they need it to do, they are not highly modded, and have most a tune and DCI. Call BS where? on e90 where it gets deleted? tried that.
    FWIW over 40 new JB3s went out last week, and 38 this week. Many to the east coast. It's easy to take a myopic view of N54 tuning if you focus only on the loud forum posters. As I've said before the average JB3 customer installs, runs map 3, enjoys his very fast car, and never thinks about it again until it's time to turn the lease in.

    Still, having one "laloosh" might be as good as 10 regular customers in terms of referral business just because he talks so much. He's bound to sway a few noobs. Which is why development is always full steam ahead. Click here to enlarge

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    Sticky- I'm not going to try to debate tech with you because you are way more keen on generating drama than actual content. Congrats on the sales Terry. I'm sure you are doing great.

    shiv

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Sticky- I'm not going to try to debate tech with you because you are way more keen on generating drama than actual content.
    Go ahead and back up your statement with technical content. Who is stopping you?

    If questioning your statement stating the factory ECU is unstable is me being dramatic, I'm not sure what to tell you. I think making a comment like that without basis and then running away from supporting it invites drama as it was irresponsible to begin with. One could argue it was dramatic marketing, not supported technical content.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You are saying the ECU and programming BMW chooses for the N54 isn't a fast responding, big reacting system, that is designed to protect the engine against serious knock? You are serious with this? You are actually implying the Procede is better at protecting the engine than the factory BMW system designed by Siemens? Shiv, are you high?

    I think the Procede does some very impressive piggybacking off one of the most sophisticated automotive production ECU's in the industry designed by the largest engineering congolomerate in Europe, Siemens. No offense to you, but the engineers at Siemens are on a whole different planet of ability than whomever is doing all the work on the Procede. I can't believe you are actually stating your aftermarket system that doesn't get the engineering development through its lifespan that the MSD80/81 probably received in one day is somehow superior to the factory ECU which you call unstable.

    Unstable? BMW wants to protect their motors above all to avoid paying out any warranty claims. If anything, you put more stress on the motor so there is no way it is more stable than the factory setup nor is it anywhere as sophisticated or capable in calculations. If the Procede was, why isn't it a full ECU replacement and instead it relies on the factory ECU? Secondly, the MSD80/81 monitors far more than your piggyback.

    I just find it rather funny that a small time tuner is actually stating a factory system designed by one of the premier Engineering firms in the world is unstable and doesn't respond as well as a system that is piggybacking off it. Damn bud, you really feel your box is something amazing as if it was a Pectel or Motec or something. Do people actually believe this?
    Yes, but not on this forum.

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    As a user that does not know about engineering or highly advanced DME's I took shiva statement as: with advancing knock and pushing the threshold of te stock engine the procede has a system designed to handle te increased values. After reading stickys statement about his viewpoint I would understand how a more advanced end user might read that more literally. I think the summation of this post can still be found at vishnutuningforum.com where people who cannot goto e90 can get all the necessary info they desire.

    I did enjoy the comment from Shiv to Terry about the sales.

    I did enjoy this thread because it shows that some users such as LM care to see what is going on in oter tunes as this shows an open minded well informed critic and customer.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by k726 Click here to enlarge
    As a user that does not know about engineering or highly advanced DME's I took shiva statement as: with advancing knock and pushing the threshold of te stock engine the procede has a system designed to handle te increased values. After reading stickys statement about his viewpoint I would understand how a more advanced end user might read that more literally. I think the summation of this post can still be found at vishnutuningforum.com where people who cannot goto e90 can get all the necessary info they desire.

    I did enjoy the comment from Shiv to Terry about the sales.

    I did enjoy this thread because it shows that some users such as LM care to see what is going on in oter tunes as this shows an open minded well informed critic and customer.
    Very nice post.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    FWIW over 40 new JB3s went out last week, and 38 this week. Many to the east coast. It's easy to take a myopic view of N54 tuning if you focus only on the loud forum posters. As I've said before the average JB3 customer installs, runs map 3, enjoys his very fast car, and never thinks about it again until it's time to turn the lease in.

    Still, having one "laloosh" might be as good as 10 regular customers in terms of referral business just because he talks so much. He's bound to sway a few noobs. Which is why development is always full steam ahead. Click here to enlarge
    Sway noobs? You sway idiots, I show them the light.
    I am responsible for 7-8 guys switching over with in a 50 mile radius of my house. Keep this bogging bull$#@! up and qmax is next. Loyalty is one thing, having a tune that works is another. Personally I dont give a $#@! about loyalty to some vendor on the other side of the map, I give a $#@! about my car lol
    LM, show up to one of our meets, you will be the only one running a jb3.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    The factory "auto-tuning" if that is what you want to call it, isn't a fast responding, big reacting (ie, unstable) system that is designed to protect the engine against serious knock. The Procede is a fast reacting, small stepping system that is designed to maintain a certain level of historical knock retard.

    Shiv
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You are saying the ECU and programming BMW chooses for the N54 isn't a fast responding, big reacting system, that is designed to protect the engine against serious knock? You are serious with this? You are actually implying the Procede is better at protecting the engine than the factory BMW system designed by Siemens? Shiv, are you high?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Sticky- I'm not going to try to debate tech with you because you are way more keen on generating drama than actual content. Congrats on the sales Terry. I'm sure you are doing great.

    shiv
    I really don't give a crap about this debate, but this thread is entertaining.

    Shiv did you really just type, what I read?

    You can't just say something that ridiculous and not back it up.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You are saying the ECU and programming BMW chooses for the N54 isn't a fast responding, big reacting system, that is designed to protect the engine against serious knock? You are serious with this? You are actually implying the Procede is better at protecting the engine than the factory BMW system designed by Siemens? Shiv, are you high?

    I think the Procede does some very impressive piggybacking off one of the most sophisticated automotive production ECU's in the industry designed by the largest engineering congolomerate in Europe, Siemens. No offense to you, but the engineers at Siemens are on a whole different planet of ability than whomever is doing all the work on the Procede. I can't believe you are actually stating your aftermarket system that doesn't get the engineering development through its lifespan that the MSD80/81 probably received in one day is somehow superior to the factory ECU which you call unstable.

    Unstable? BMW wants to protect their motors above all to avoid paying out any warranty claims. If anything, you put more stress on the motor so there is no way it is more stable than the factory setup nor is it anywhere as sophisticated or capable in calculations. If the Procede was, why isn't it a full ECU replacement and instead it relies on the factory ECU? Secondly, the MSD80/81 monitors far more than your piggyback.

    I just find it rather funny that a small time tuner is actually stating a factory system designed by one of the premier Engineering firms in the world is unstable and doesn't respond as well as a system that is piggybacking off it. Damn bud, you really feel your box is something amazing as if it was a Pectel or Motec or something. Do people actually believe this?
    Okay from an electrical/computer engineer who understands engine tuning in its most basic form:

    I don't know what shiv said but what I do know is that simply relying on the stock DME to react and adjust to 2x or close to 3x the stress level of what the stock engine should be pushing on a reg. basis is ridiculous. The DME was PROBABLY not programmed to assume such increases in stress levels are going to be persistent from when such increases in stress happened. (I am not positive but this is probably why when you go into limp mode, turn the car off then back on the car feels fine.) What the PROcede does is react to the TEMPORARY 'autotune' the DME has, and after a period of time, mold a consistent setting for timing etc., so the DME no longer has to go through drastic TEMPORARY 'autotune' changes again.

    I doubt the DME was given the authority to pull high degrees of timing and keep that setting persistent; as most systems would, the DME will always try to slowly move back towards the timing curve the car should normally have after a drastic (yet needed) timing pull. Small adjustments may be made persistent, but probably not big enough adjustments for 2-3 times increases in stress levels.

    Now we all know this DME was very well programmed, but chances are it was not programmed for such aggressive levels of stress; however, within the levels of stress it IS programmed for, it is VERY stable.

    I believe this is what shiv means when saying the DME is 'unstable', it is a very stable system; but not necessarily stable for the high, consistent increases in stress we are currently pushing


    Shiv correct me if I am wrong
    Last edited by supracg; 08-21-2010 at 05:02 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Sway noobs? You sway idiots, I show them the light.
    I am responsible for 7-8 guys switching over with in a 50 mile radius of my house. Keep this bogging bull$#@! up and qmax is next. Loyalty is one thing, having a tune that works is another. Personally I dont give a $#@! about loyalty to some vendor on the other side of the map, I give a $#@! about my car lol
    LM, show up to one of our meets, you will be the only one running a jb3.
    Switching or whatnot is fine, but where is the proof?

    Last I checked the JB3 has its fair share of customers. Why would these customers switch and why aren't they saying anything about it? Customers seem to go both ways (hahaha get it?).

    Plus, when the JB4 hits some Vishnu customers will switch and then Vishnu will update and some of their customers will switch. At the end of the day it is tough to argue against value in this economy and BMS wins that so it will always have a share.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by supracg Click here to enlarge
    I don't know what shiv said but what I do know is that simply relying on the stock DME to react and adjust to 2x or close to 3x the stress level of what the stock engine should be pushing on a reg. basis is ridiculous. The DME was PROBABLY not programmed to assume such increases in stress levels are going to be persistent from when such increases in stress happened.
    Exactly. So is running an engine with a tune and Procede seriously safer than the stock ECU at stock parameters which is supposedly unstable? Does a tune increase stress? The DME was programmed to adjust certain parameters and will always adjust those parameters and is a highly sophisticated piece of engineering.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by supracg Click here to enlarge
    ow we all know this DME was very well programmed, but chances are it was not programmed for such aggressive levels of stress; however, within the levels of stress it IS programmed for, it is VERY stable
    It is stable? I thought we just saw "unstable" from Vishnu?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by supracg Click here to enlarge
    I believe this is what shiv means when saying the DME is 'unstable', it is a very stable system; but not necessarily stable for the high, consistent increases in stress we are currently pushing
    I think in retrospect this is the only excuse that can be made for what Shiv said considering it bordered on a level of ridiculous that the English language has yet to define.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    The procede constantly alters cps offset and boost. So its not like stock that alters only boost. Hell w the procede as we know boost is independent from whatever the runs stock....it doesn't just add or take away boost like the stock ecu because the two are not linked. The rumors and specglations in this thread are from people who don't own or run the tune. Its actually funny and sad at the same time.
    Of course stock DME is not altering cps. "stock alters only boost" is wrong, however. It manages timing and will do that without lying to itself by setting CPS off. Only people who cannot do it the right way are setting CPS off. It is a lot better to have the correct CPS information rather than false, altered signal.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Switching or whatnot is fine, but where is the proof?

    Last I checked the JB3 has its fair share of customers. Why would these customers switch and why aren't they saying anything about it? Customers seem to go both ways (hahaha get it?).

    Plus, when the JB4 hits some Vishnu customers will switch and then Vishnu will update and some of their customers will switch. At the end of the day it is tough to argue against value in this economy and BMS wins that so it will always have a share.
    Proof of what? People dumping the juicebox? REad e90 much, there is a jb3 to procede thread on there weekly. Try the for sale section of e90.
    Value in this econmy? Get feature for feature on both tunes and the price is nearly identical, except one comes in one box and the other comes in several add ons

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    Of course stock DME is not altering cps. "stock alters only boost" is wrong, however. It manages timing and will do that without lying to itself by setting CPS off. Only people who cannot do it the right way are setting CPS off. It is a lot better to have the correct CPS information rather than false, altered signal.
    Ummm....maybe this thread is not for you than. Try Giac, good luck

    Please explain why its better to have correct rather then false information. If thats how you feel, then piggy backs are not for you.

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    By "unstable", I mean a system that doesn't achieve stability when supporting 2-3 times factory boost pressure with no CPS offsetting. It is almost completely reactive, relying on a fast retard rate (immediate 3 deg pull) and a slow decay rate (adding back the 3 degrees gradually over the next second or so). You can see how much it "learns" (ie, as opposed to reacts) by simply enabling methanol in the middle of a great. Without CPS offsetting, you will see situation were timing goes from 4-5 deg at WOT to 9-10 degrees almost immediately (or as fast as the decay rate will allow). If there was any "learning" going on, it wouldn't allow for that. Instead, things would gradually ramp up towards max advance levels. Almost like comparing short and long term fuel trims. One is a fasts moving, very reactive system designed for immediate corrections. The other is slower, more deliberate and far more STABLE system designed to keep the other from having to make big corrections.

    Think of the factory knock controls system as the short term-trim. And the Procede autotuning sytem as the long-term trim. Because that is an almost perfect analogy that can be understood by anyone who has ever seen a closed loop fuel control system work. Because it's only by monitoring long term trim that you can reliably gauge how aggressive or conservative the tune is. And then make routine, tiny steps in either directions to keep it at its target level.

    Shiv

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