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  1. #176
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tofu Click here to enlarge
    haha speaking of vin locking, they just deleted my post from the e90 thread:

    Attachment 31271
    "Really wish the admins would lock this thread until the fourth"

    I really wish that site had real admins.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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  3. #178
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doyle Click here to enlarge
    It is a step. It will likely lower the barriers to entry for true control of the ECU. From there, more hands get into the pot and the community TRULY crowdsources and advances it.

    Esp when knock-off or cheap log exhaust manifolds start to flood the market...

    So what do you guys honestly think will happen once the open source flashing is released? I think its just going to be access to the tables for editing. Do you really think this is the key to running larger turbos? If it was THAT easy, don't you think Cobb would have released the "pay for" version of ATR with those capabilities?


    I think people are thinking the DME is much easier to hack than it really is....
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  4. #179
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    I think some things (expertise) are worth paying for. Some may eek out a few more ponies, other may go boom. Not sure the risk is worth the reward here, YMMV...

  5. #180
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    So what do you guys honestly think will happen once the open source flashing is released? I think its just going to be access to the tables for editing. Do you really think this is the key to running larger turbos? If it was THAT easy, don't you think Cobb would have released the "pay for" version of ATR with those capabilities?


    I think people are thinking the DME is much easier to hack than it really is....
    Initially? Almost nothing. But once it finds it's way into certain hands it could be beneficial. If nothing else it gives us some sort of budget read/write device. Once a cheapy twinscroll manifold comes out, we could be in business for 500-600rwhp on pump/e85 being the new norm. Which will then force innovation above it.

    It's easier when your 9-5 is apparently doing this exact work, or working closely with those who do. AND having flashes that have already done the heavy lifting. AND having a close partnership with someone who has been working with this platform for 5+ years. He isn't reinventing the wheel. He is just calling the wheel something else.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    I think people are thinking the DME is much easier to hack than it really is....
    I think you're right. BUT...I think there will be enough highly motivated owners who know what they are doing to make some significant progress above what is already available. There are some good people at Cobb, but I don't think they're going to put much time into any features that aren't going to help sell a bunch more APs. There is too much other work they can do on other platforms that will generate more money for the company. We've reached the point where further progress will probably need to be a labor of love in my opinion. Which is why it will suck if the "open source" project doesn't end up giving access to the code itself rather than just the tables.

  7. #182
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doyle Click here to enlarge
    Initially? Almost nothing. But once it finds it's way into certain hands it could be beneficial. If nothing else it gives us some sort of budget read/write device. Once a cheapy twinscroll manifold comes out, we could be in business for 500-600rwhp on pump/e85 being the new norm. Which will then force innovation above it.

    It's easier when your 9-5 is apparently doing this exact work, or working closely with those who do. AND having flashes that have already done the heavy lifting. AND having a close partnership with someone who has been working with this platform for 5+ years. He isn't reinventing the wheel. He is just calling the wheel something else.
    Twin scroll or even single turbo will be a hack job until someone can convert the DME to read a unified bank 1/2 02 sensor feed. Even the pre turbo dual wideband method is flawed, as shown by @Terry@BMS , the widebanks are calibrated off the narrowbands during stoich operation. Since Vishnu is running a single narrowband down stream and splicing it into both feeds of the DME, its going to throw the calibration off for 1 of the wide-bands.

    I dont see a fix anytime soon, unless full standalone becomes an option. Upgraded twins are really the only "right" way to do things, at least in my opinion.
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  8. #183
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    Its the battle between perfect and good. People are willing to sacrifice right for right now.

    The point being, if running a quality twin scroll becomes a $3500 option. And 500-600hp n54s become common, it is going to boost interest in the platform. More interest brings larger quantities of consumers. More consumers means more opportunity for aftermarket. More aftermarket vendors means more competition in both prices and innovation.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Twin scroll or even single turbo will be a hack job until someone can convert the DME to read a unified bank 1/2 02 sensor feed. Even the pre turbo dual wideband method is flawed, as shown by @Terry@BMS , the widebanks are calibrated off the narrowbands during stoich operation. Since Vishnu is running a single narrowband down stream and splicing it into both feeds of the DME, its going to throw the calibration off for 1 of the wide-bands.

    I dont see a fix anytime soon, unless full standalone becomes an option. Upgraded twins are really the only "right" way to do things, at least in my opinion.

  9. #184
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doyle Click here to enlarge
    Its the battle between perfect and good. People are willing to sacrifice right for right now.

    The point being, if running a quality twin scroll becomes a $3500 option. And 500-600hp n54s become common, it is going to boost interest in the platform. More interest brings larger quantities of consumers. More consumers means more opportunity for aftermarket. More aftermarket vendors means more competition in both prices and innovation.
    Those things won't happen until the computer situation is figured out. This DME and computer is very heavily set up to expect twin turbos. Some quite significant DME changes are needed to run a single turbo without a piggyback or standalone.

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    If I could change one "bit" and literally change the entire N54 platform I'd simply change it from a two banks of 3 to one bank of 6. Just like the N55 engine runs. That would greatly simplify both tuning and turbo kit design. Sure, there are some trade offs. But there are plenty of high HP platforms working just fine with a single bank approach...
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  11. #186
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Those things won't happen until the computer situation is figured out. This DME and computer is very heavily set up to expect twin turbos. Some quite significant DME changes are needed to run a single turbo without a piggyback or standalone.
    And a computer situation that would require low level access to the DME. Hence my very opinionated stance on this project. Its like putting 100% of our doctors in the world on the task of fixing erectile dysfunction.
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  12. #187
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    If I could change one "bit" and literally change the entire N54 platform I'd simply change it from a two banks of 3 to one bank of 6. Just like the N55 engine runs. That would greatly simplify both tuning and turbo kit design. Sure, there are some trade offs. But there are plenty of high HP platforms working just fine with a single bank approach...
    EFI and Carbs made big power too Click here to enlarge
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  13. #188
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Those things won't happen until the computer situation is figured out. This DME and computer is very heavily set up to expect twin turbos. Some quite significant DME changes are needed to run a single turbo without a piggyback or standalone.
    I'm not suggesting it'll be soon, or that it will 100% replace the piggyback. My thought is similar to what klips mentioned. More people get involved, and a simple "hack" doesn't cut it for big power, everyone will focus on how to run off a single bank. Right now, there isn't enough interest or demand to bring attention to this. There are what, less than 10 single turbos out there? Only around 3 that aren't obligated to a specific tuner?

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    So we get a cable with a few user map we can modify? Doesn't sound like any open source tuning I have ever used???

    It will be great for the community, but the problem being... people that shouldn't be tuning will be, then what? After a few blown up engines because of a shared tune or your "buddies" adjustment and all the sudden this software will have a reputation for blowing up engines (not the end user). Its going to be interested what comes of it, and if its better that just means COBB, Terry, and a few others will really have to step up there game in getting "better" software for everyone to use.

  15. #190
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doyle Click here to enlarge
    I'm not suggesting it'll be soon, or that it will 100% replace the piggyback. My thought is similar to what klips mentioned. More people get involved, and a simple "hack" doesn't cut it for big power, everyone will focus on how to run off a single bank. Right now, there isn't enough interest or demand to bring attention to this. There are what, less than 10 single turbos out there? Only around 3 that aren't obligated to a specific tuner?
    Reason being... nobody had a way to tune a big turbo. Now that the options are out there... more and more will be moving to bigger turbo/single set ups.

  16. #191
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    EFI and Carbs made big power too Click here to enlarge
    In relation to? Comparing a carb to DI is like comparing an apple to a carrot. What we have seen with DI is crazy, what we are able to get away with in tuning... silly, the economy of the cars... unbelievable. The cam profiles we are able to get away with in a DI or GDI application is crazy! When we can make 640 WHP in a 4 cyl application on pump gas with huge cams and CNC'ed head and it drives better than stock... I don't think you can even compare the two.

  17. #192
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hpfpupgrade Click here to enlarge
    Reason being... nobody had a way to tune a big turbo. Now that the options are out there... more and more will be moving to bigger turbo/single set ups.
    And that still our only non-stock frame turbo options are FFTEC or custom (VTT has yet to roll out production kits). Fueling was just recently increased, but still not 100% resolved. And hardware costs are still pretty prohibitive for the average hobbyist. On top of that, everything is still unproven.

    It is the combination of cheaper tuning, cheaper hardware costs, and more data points to prove reliability/performance that will bring customers. Open source is one factor in the bigger evolution.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doyle Click here to enlarge
    And that still our only non-stock frame turbo options are FFTEC or custom (VTT has yet to roll out production kits). Fueling was just recently increased, but still not 100% resolved. And hardware costs are still pretty prohibitive for the average hobbyist. On top of that, everything is still unproven.

    It is the combination of cheaper tuning, cheaper hardware costs, and more data points to prove reliability/performance that will bring customers. Open source is one factor in the bigger evolution.
    Correct, but making it cheaper will only put in the hands of those that shouldn't be using it.

    The platform is making huge advancements in power, fueling, tuning ect. Is the solution to make it cheaper? No, there is something said about the quality of a part for your BMW. Now if you owned a Honda Civic... well its cheap, fast then quality... LOL. Nothing built properly is cheap.

    I still like the option of multiple tunes at the end user and I don't know if that was addressed yet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hpfpupgrade Click here to enlarge
    In relation to? Comparing a carb to DI is like comparing an apple to a carrot. What we have seen with DI is crazy, what we are able to get away with in tuning... silly, the economy of the cars... unbelievable. The cam profiles we are able to get away with in a DI or GDI application is crazy! When we can make 640 WHP in a 4 cyl application on pump gas with huge cams and CNC'ed head and it drives better than stock... I don't think you can even compare the two.
    Why would it need to be in relation to anything? I'm simply stating that 'older' technology does the job. Look at the post I'm quoting, its in regards to single bank working just fine. Comparing an apple to a carrot would be nonsense, why would anyone do that?

    In addition to your following comments about cheap not equalling proper. Perhaps less expensive would be better terminology? Perhaps you think beats audio headphones really cost $300?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Perhaps you think beats audio headphones really cost $300?
    Headphones and speakers in general are a huge rip off. The technology hasn't really changed since the 70s just a few new materials.

    I am all for an open source flash. It can only help and not hurt the community so I don't see what the big deal is.

  21. #196
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    I don't think anyone is against it. I don't think anyone has said what he's doing is a bad idea. Its how its being done that I think could be improved or done differently, I'm simply a voice.
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  22. #197
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    This is just my personal opinion, atm atleast, but this "open source" flashing system is just being developed as a means for Shiv to get the PROcede flash distributed with as little effort and money of his own involved as possible.

    Does anyone really buy the story Robimhood(odd name, don't you think?) told about meeting Shiv back in the day and now he's involved with the N54 he just so happened to start a thread/project on e90 that Shiv jumped in and volunteered a lot information for at the same time the PROcede flash is in desperate need of an at home flashing solution?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    This is just my personal opinion, atm atleast, but this "open source" flashing system is just being developed as a means for Shiv to get the PROcede flash distributed with as little effort and money of his own involved as possible.

    Does anyone really buy the story Robimhood(odd name, don't you think?) told about meeting Shiv back in the day and now he's involved with the N54 he just so happened to start a thread/project on e90 that Shiv jumped in and volunteered a lot information for at the same time the PROcede flash is in desperate need of an at home flashing solution?
    I believe everyone can use it. Why not?

  24. #199
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    I believe everyone can use it. Why not?
    I could definitely be wrong... but we'll have to wait and see once some information is available. Just a lot of coincidences for me.
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    I think your logic is flawed. The juicebox was much cheaper than the Procede. Did that put it in the wrong hands? No, it brought competition. In fact the competition between those vendors may have led to the largest advancements you're talking about. Later on, Cobb entered the fray as a flash tuner that was $100's cheaper than others. And yet again, huge advancements.

    In this case, new tech isn't cheap is more appropriate. Creative destruction/Schumpeter's Gale occurs. New tech is expensive to develop. It has to be to recoup IP and start-up costs. However, it can't stay new tech. It gets reproduced by competitors for cheaper, and cheaper, until the margins are minimal. But that is fine, because the innovative company as an advantage in innovation, so they have already hopped onto the next project. And the cycle continues. Capitalism is beautiful $#@!, sometimes.

    Markets correct demand with supply. There will probably be great demand for a $3k twinscroll setup. It will be supplied. This will largely marginalize this "generation of innovation". Is it good quality work? Absolutely. However, in order to stay relevant, the current set of tuners will need to continue to innovate and develop new market offerings. Which, in turn, pushes development where the consumer wants it...like, say, running one bank on an n54.

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