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  1. #126
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If you spend time programming software say for a computer with certain hardware and I download that same exact software to be used with similar hardware and make some changes, and then release it into the public, did I do anything wrong? Can I just make some changes to windows and then release it for free without Microsoft going after me?
    The slippery slope argument doesn't hold water. I wasn't being very vague about what constituted IP theft, as I explicitly stated:
    Of course the end open-source project -must not- use any code 'plagiarized' from the 'decompiled source' however the likelihood of a prosecution arising from that seems remote and unlikely (due to the difficulty of providing evidence to the fact).
    It is in this case, or in the case of a patent violation where there is trouble as far as the law is concerned.

    This is extremely unlikely. If anything was lifted from COBB's software it would have been table locations and/or decryption keys. Not whole sections of ATR/ATP software.

    To use your analogy to prove my point: Mac OS = Windows = Linux = BSD. Android = iOS = Windows Phone = PalmOS etc.
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  2. #127
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    Mac OS = Windows = Linux = BSD. Android = iOS = Windows Phone = PalmOS etc.
    I'm lost
    Click here to enlarge

  3. #128
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Brey335i Click here to enlarge
    I'm lost
    Just because you copy functionality doesn't meant that you've violated someone's IP.
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  4. #129
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    The slippery slope argument doesn't hold water. I wasn't being very vague about what constituted IP theft, as I explicitly stated:
    I was specifically stating I was being vague and you can't really be specific without knowing all the specifics can you? Are you sitting there and breaking down all the code?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    It is in this case, or in the case of a patent violation where there is trouble as far as the law is concerned.

    This is extremely unlikely. If anything was lifted from COBB's software it would have been table locations and/or decryption keys. Not whole sections of ATR/ATP software.
    Yes, I agree unlikely and difficult to prove. Doesn't mean it is impossible or something shady is not going on.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    To use your analogy to prove my point: Mac OS = Windows = Linux = BSD. Android = iOS = Windows Phone = PalmOS etc.
    I don't see how equating OS's proves your point here.

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  5. #130
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    Just because you copy functionality doesn't meant that you've violated someone's IP.
    Um ya it can as the idea is protecting intangible assets. You can certainly violate an IP by copying functionality.

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  6. #131
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    @Sticky: We've successfully reduced the argument to components parts of opinion. High Five!
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  7. #132
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    We've successfully reduced the argument to components parts of opinion.
    This isn't grammatically correct but high five anyway. Regardless, we'll see what if anything Cobb will do.

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  8. #133
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    You're weird sticky. * component. High five.

    The courteous provide notes.
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  9. #134
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    You're weird sticky. * component. High five.

    The courteous provide notes.
    Nothing weird about liking grammar. High five.

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  10. #135
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    I'll resume my posting here as I feel my posts are about to be deleted from the other forum.

    Bottom line: This will be a great product most likely, it is being commercialized which I won't fault him for, but this is an open source tuning platform, not an open source DME flasher. The code to actually access read/write the DME will likely never see the light of day which is unfortunate considering I'd really like to see people modify the guts of the DME more than anything. (i.e. switch to single bank o2's or VIN programming, reverse engineering some fueling issues)

    Expect an update on independence day.
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  11. #136
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    +1 Hoping for the best expecting the worst.

    Reading between the lines, this is what I expect:

    -Similar features/tables as Cobb ATR
    -All done via app
    -Proprietary cable
    -Maps "conveniently" provided by Shiv to compete with BMS Backend...for $150/each

  12. #137
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    Open source software with a closed source flasher doesn't limit you to "not being able to convert to single o2 logic" at all. This device will most likely accept a .bin unlocked and flash it. You will most likely modify that bin using a calibration file that corresponds to that bin, that you can add scalers and tables to as you/someone discovers/wants them. Something as major as switching to single o2 sensor isn't as easy as you are making it out to be... I doubt it's just a simple value change. If it is, and you find the part of the code with that value (possibly through some kind of failed o2 limp code?) You could add it to the definition and flash it. If it's part of the logic, that's also able to be modified and flashed most likely if you can figure it out. That's how it usually works.

  13. #138
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doyle Click here to enlarge
    +1 Hoping for the best expecting the worst.

    Reading between the lines, this is what I expect:

    -Similar features/tables as Cobb ATR
    -All done via app
    -Proprietary cable
    -Maps "conveniently" provided by Shiv to compete with BMS Backend...for $150/each
    the last part I dont necessarily agree with. shiv simply doesnt want to be bothered manually reflashing ecus for his vishnu flash. Click here to enlarge I am sure he'd rather sell procedes for more money.

  14. #139
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    It's a dog eat dog world out there. Cobb stood on the shoulders of the bench flashes. This guy is standing on Cobb's shoulders. If people don't like what he is selling or how much he is selling it for (make no mistake, this is a for profit venture), then someone will stand on this guys shoulders and improve on it. It's just how the market works.

    I will say it's odd that this guy lives next to Shiv and chooses to openly associates himself with him. I read his thread the other day and even his writing style is very similar to Shiv's. Must be a NORCAL thing...
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    the last part I dont necessarily agree with. shiv simply doesnt want to be bothered manually reflashing ecus for his vishnu flash. Click here to enlarge I am sure he'd rather sell procedes for more money.
    No there is def room for profit for him, here. If there is anything we should have learned about him: if there is room for a 25% profit, Shiv will seek a 75% profit.

    It makes too much sense. Most people won't feel comfortable making their own maps, or using maps from other users. Selling boilerplate flashes with Shiv's "stamp of approval", not needing to manually reflash ECUs, appearing altruistic by helping "the grassroots little guy", AND undercutting Cobb's price is a win-win-win-win for him.

    Even Shiv knows that the Procede is pretty much a sinking ship. But in doing this, he can move on without admitting the Procede's flaws...which he never will.

  16. #141
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doyle Click here to enlarge
    he can move on without admitting the Procede's flaws...which he never will.
    Mind listing them? I am trying to convince a fried to get a cobb or JB4 instead of the procede. Or listing why it is a sinking ship?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Open source software with a closed source flasher doesn't limit you to "not being able to convert to single o2 logic" at all. This device will most likely accept a .bin unlocked and flash it. You will most likely modify that bin using a calibration file that corresponds to that bin, that you can add scalers and tables to as you/someone discovers/wants them. Something as major as switching to single o2 sensor isn't as easy as you are making it out to be... I doubt it's just a simple value change. If it is, and you find the part of the code with that value (possibly through some kind of failed o2 limp code?) You could add it to the definition and flash it. If it's part of the logic, that's also able to be modified and flashed most likely if you can figure it out. That's how it usually works.
    The "logic" term is a little unknown to me. You have locations for entered values and options... apart from this there are relationships/calculations between tables and I/O, which I consider the logic. I'm not sure how the software is developed initially, but would guess that most ECUs produced these days are designed to accommodate a wide range of applications... so for example # of O2 maybe selectable, flexfuel en/disabled, features turned on/off, etc. And to find this, need to have "miners" searching/deciphering code and if we have this ability, I would think you could add to, change it. Anyway, I know nothing of computers and irritated IT setting up my new thinkpad.

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    The basics:

    1) Price. You can get a new AP cheaper or at the same price than a new Rev3
    2) Resale. Procede is Vin locked. Cobb just needs to be divorced and then resold.
    3) Capability for current needs. Timing and fueling are the biggest limitations of the piggybacks. Both have their strengths, however.
    4) Capability for future needs. As big power options continue to appear, and eventually decrease in price and become more proven, having the ability to read/write to the ECU will be big. ProEFI is ideal, but Cobb has proven itself with Vargas TT upgrades.
    5) Shiv's marketing/production moves. He released the PROcedeFlash to compete with Cobb's capability. Tack on $125 to point 1.
    6) Support. With ATP, protuners, and even ATR you can really maximize to tune holistically to your unique car. Plus, Cobb has a few other platforms that they have had minor success with Click here to enlarge

  19. #144
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Open source software with a closed source flasher doesn't limit you to "not being able to convert to single o2 logic" at all. This device will most likely accept a .bin unlocked and flash it. You will most likely modify that bin using a calibration file that corresponds to that bin, that you can add scalers and tables to as you/someone discovers/wants them. Something as major as switching to single o2 sensor isn't as easy as you are making it out to be... I doubt it's just a simple value change. If it is, and you find the part of the code with that value (possibly through some kind of failed o2 limp code?) You could add it to the definition and flash it. If it's part of the logic, that's also able to be modified and flashed most likely if you can figure it out. That's how it usually works.
    I'm a software developer and am in no way making something to be 'easy' or 'simple'. Not sure where you got that from, I'm no script kiddie, I write native win32 applications, have done quite a bit of winsock coding for private servers for video games, requiring reversing the encrpytion on rc4 based streaming cipher algorithms among other things. C++, x86 assembly, arm, C# are all functional languages at my disposal. I've written emulator core for the NES 6502, I'm no Geohot but I'm not a novice and we are all here to learn and pry around. Again, my interest is in the flashing software not the tuning software. Are you a coder? If not, then I can understand your inability to see where my interests are. A closed source flasher does in fact impact the ability or probability of modifying the DME logic. Look at it this way, the DME is a computer, it runs on an operating system of some kind, in these types of applications its generally called a firmware. I want to modify and hack the $#@! out of that, not the maps or the values that the firmware is accessing.
    Last edited by klipseracer; 06-25-2013 at 01:17 PM.
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  20. #145
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    Since the DME is a computer, it could probably run linux with enough effort(not realistic, it would be a ton).However, when you bring your perspective in line with that, a high level interface like the one probably coming with this 'flasher' while I'm sure it will be good, it doesn't give the low level flashing access that I think will be necessary, nor will the code be exposed to try and modify it that way. In the end someone like myself or someone else will have to go and figure it out ourselves, which is what is disappointing since he already has it and thats where my 'open source' discrepancy comes from.

    EDIT: Also, if this software does provide the low level flashing capability we need, then there really is no argument. But they seem to be defending their position as if it is not. For some reason, I don't think that a 2 megabyte file is the whole operating system, and perhaps what he's able to do through a obd cable wouldn't achieve what I want here anyway. It might come down to soldering on a new eeprom/rom chip or something like that.
    Last edited by klipseracer; 06-25-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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  21. #146
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    The Infineon TC1796 chip in the DME excels at real time operations. I doubt it runs an operating system anything like windows or Linux. A RTOS (real time operating system) is what you are likely to find running on it, probably of proprietary Bosch design. I would be willing to bet it is very good at what it does. I would not think we would want to change it. Millions of dollars and most likely decades of time resulting in countless iterations have all contributed to making it what it is.

    The foundation of this type of professor is interrupts and interrupt handling. A 100 ms delay in loading a webpage is probably imperceptible to most users. A 100 ms delay in a spark event is going to result in a miss which will be felt, especially under acceleration. Interrupts are like events in OOP, but they are handled by hardware instead of software to improve the latency of the service routine. Anyone who is interested should check out the documentation for this microcontroller.

    http://www.infineon.com/cms/en/produ...6aaf0819&tab=2

    Would would be amazing is if the open source community could get access to the flash memory in the microcontroller, and dump it. Then disassembly could begin. I suspect the chip runs a bootloader that will only play nice if certain security measures are satisfied. I'm sure Bosch wishes to protect their IP. Like most mobile phones, the bootloader is the key to running custom firmware, or ROMs. Incredibly, DAvE, Infinions IDE appears to be free.

    This is how you would probably get by with running one O2 sensor. Like Josh said above there may be software "switches" for turning off and on certain features, but they probably exist in the source code as something like per processor directives, and I really doubt we will ever see the source code.

    It will be very interesting to see what this individual working on the open source tuning platform comes up with.
    Eppur si muove.

  22. #147
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    The Infineon TC1796 chip in the DME excels at real time operations. I doubt it runs an operating system anything like windows or Linux. A RTOS (real time operating system) is what you are likely to find running on it, probably of proprietary Bosch design. I would be willing to bet it is very good at what it does. I would not think we would want to change it. Millions of dollars and most likely decades of time resulting in countless iterations have all contributed to making it what it is.

    The foundation of this type of professor is interrupts and interrupt handling. A 100 ms delay in loading a webpage is probably imperceptible to most users. A 100 ms delay in a spark event is going to result in a miss which will be felt, especially under acceleration. Interrupts are like events in OOP, but they are handled by hardware instead of software to improve the latency of the service routine. Anyone who is interested should check out the documentation for this microcontroller.

    http://www.infineon.com/cms/en/produ...6aaf0819&tab=2

    Would would be amazing is if the open source community could get access to the flash memory in the microcontroller, and dump it. Then disassembly could begin. I suspect the chip runs a bootloader that will only play nice if certain security measures are satisfied. I'm sure Bosch wishes to protect their IP. Like most mobile phones, the bootloader is the key to running custom firmware, or ROMs. Incredibly, DAvE, Infinions IDE appears to be free.

    This is how you would probably get by with running one O2 sensor. Like Josh said above there may be software "switches" for turning off and on certain features, but they probably exist in the source code as something like per processor directives, and I really doubt we will ever see the source code.

    It will be very interesting to see what this individual working on the open source tuning platform comes up with.
    Great post. I wasn't actually considering changing the operating system, but I used it as a way to explain to others the level of modification I am speaking of. And as you mentioned, migrating to running a single 02 sensor, while not something I'm super excited about doing, that kind of control requires a lower level access which I am REALLY hoping we will see one day.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge

    This is how you would probably get by with running one O2 sensor. Like Josh said above there may be software "switches" for turning off and on certain features, but they probably exist in the source code as something like per processor directives, and I really doubt we will ever see the source code.

    It will be very interesting to see what this individual working on the open source tuning platform comes up with.
    I'm sure those 'switches' or bool values in the source compile out very differently, and without the source, which as you mention we'll never see, it would require many many hard edits, but again, thats where it begins with dis-assembly and tracing the code.

    Imagine being able to code our own cars, change vins for access to a second dme we can swap in when we need and programming in different TCU's. This is what drives me Click here to enlarge


    EDIT: Reading the data sheet:


    Multiple on-chip memories
    – 2 Mbyte Program Flash Memory (PFLASH) with ECC
    – 128 Kbyte Data Flash Memory (DFLASH) usable for EEPROM emulation
    – 136 Kbyte Data Memory (LDRAM, SRAM, SBRAM)
    – 8 Kbyte Dual-Ported Memory (DPRAM)
    – 48 Kbyte Code Scratchpad Memory (SPRAM)
    – 16 Kbyte Instruction Cache (ICACHE)
    – 16 Kbyte BootROM (BROM)


    I remember reading rombinhood stating that the PFLASH rom requires encryption keys probably for signing the ROM and uses checksums. Has he exploited the bootrom to not require this or perhaps reversed the encryption algorithm/key?
    Last edited by klipseracer; 06-25-2013 at 02:48 PM.
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    They only experience I have with running custom code on protected systems is with my android devices. The first step is always to unlock the boot loader. I am not an expert on this so i don't really know how the bootloader is unlocked, but it usually involves exploiting some sort of security flaw with the system. Remember, the manufacturers of the phone and the wireless carriers would really prefer you not do this, so they seldom make it easy. Once the exploit is found a determined individual can run their own code on the system and do something like dump the program memory, which as you mention, may or may not be encrypted. From there they can gain access to the machine code, and begin disassembly.

    I don't know if you have heard of xda-developers.com, but it is a highly technically oriented community dedicated to mobile phone hacking, which involves unlocking boot loaders to run custom code. There may be some very educational information to be found on that forum which could be used to understand the challenges of running custom code on the DME.
    Eppur si muove.

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    The only problem with this... how do you give multiple tunes to the customer? We use open source for several platforms and the biggest problem is giving a E85 tune, race gas tune, pump gas tune, girlfriend tune, ect tune to the customer. The hand held tuners allow you to give multiple tunes to the customer that they can load. I am all for an open source tuning solution but we will have to make sure the customers only want "one" tune.

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