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  1. #101
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    There are no differences between the content in ATR and ATP.

    you caN compile the map using different logic in ATP (e.g. boosa) which isn't possible in ATR.

  2. #102
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    O2 tables, speedometer calibrations, check engine light nannies, dcfo tables (for those that want fuel economy), idle over/underspeed spark advance for those thinking about headwork/cams if they ever come out of the woodwork, throttle IAT follower settings for those with 6mt and light weight flywheels who want to shift in easymode, and on and on and on.

    I probably missed about 532 :-)

    Some of those people who "shouldn't" be tuning will make mistakes, and they will learn from those mistakes, and maybe further their own interests in tuning and become the next dzenno. Tuning ATR is a great stepping stone, but to say it's not lacking is false, although that's no fault of Cobb. IMO they are the reason the open source will be here sooner rather than later. And for that I'm happy I bought an AP, even if they didn't intentionally support the effort.

    Will open source fix this and give us all the tables? Probably not. Definitely not now. But who knows, and nothing is stopping Cobb from stealing the open source discoveries and putting them right into ATR. Will open source destroy Cobb? No way, well not until these cars values hit under $10k, and maybe not even then especially if the price comes down.
    some of that can be achieved through coding. Click here to enlarge

  3. #103
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    Probably but my German isn't too great lol. Some of that stuff may not even be handled by the dme in this car either, it has so many modules. Just throwing nice things to have out there :-)

  4. #104
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for the info!!

    There is some misinformation in the forums about this as if ATR would not offer the needed functionality for tuning.
    I have confused ATP and "race code" in the past... The latter is different then ATR, and is how many are pro-tuned. ATP does offer additional tables though.

  5. #105
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I have confused ATP and "race code" in the past... The latter is different then ATR, and is how many are pro-tuned. ATP does offer additional tables though.
    I thought Josh@Cobb just said that ATP and ATR offered exactly the same capabilities?

  6. #106
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I have confused ATP and "race code" in the past... The latter is different then ATR, and is how many are pro-tuned. ATP does offer additional tables though.
    Josh@Cobb just said that the content is the same currently. There is no difference.

  7. #107
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    you caN compile the map using different logic in ATP (e.g. boosa) which isn't possible in ATR.
    This is the only difference?
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  8. #108
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    Josh@Cobb just said that the content is the same currently. There is no difference.
    I got some ATP tables the other day not in ATR, unless there's a way to update from the website i wasn't aware of.

  9. #109
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    you caN compile the map using different logic in ATP (e.g. boosa) which isn't possible in ATR.
    Boosa is the only difference and there are only a couple people with that since it isn't completed. Once done, it will be in all ATR and ATP releases.

    If there are tables missing in ATR from ATP, please send me an email because it was probably just missed for a single rom and I can make an update.

    I do development with tuners so I can see experience outside of our shop and atmospheric conditions. Anything that is in a full release of ATP should also be in ATR.
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  10. #110
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    oh, my bad

    what's the main differences then?

    just the ability to lock your maps, or are there other actual tuning advantages of any sort?
    Tuning is the same, ATP just allows a shop to create maps that they can lock. This allows experts to create maps for you and not have to worry about their work being shared... which would make their jobs obsolete. We're pretty selective with our Pro-Tuner network, so you should be able to put faith in anyone we support. ATP also provides tuners with our resources for full support.

    We don't want to dilute the experience for our individual customers that want to use ATR, so we provide the same features/tables/logic.
    Josh Dankel
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  11. #111
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think they don't believe there will be consequences.
    I think they are wrong Click here to enlarge
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  12. #112
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    Tuning is the same, ATP just allows a shop to create maps that they can lock. This allows experts to create maps for you and not have to worry about their work being shared... which would make their jobs obsolete. We're pretty selective with our Pro-Tuner network, so you should be able to put faith in anyone we support. ATP also provides tuners with our resources for full support.

    We don't want to dilute the experience for our individual customers that want to use ATR, so we provide the same features/tables/logic.
    Ahhh thats pretty awesome

    strange i've never really heard about anyone making their own map in ATR.... I'd be all over that for fun lol

  13. #113
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    I think they are wrong Click here to enlarge
    I hope so, best of luck with this.
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  14. #114
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    seems like this project is making serious progress and will be operational in the near future. Terry will you make your BMS flash available through this as well or will it be restricted to the cobb users?
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    seems like this project is making serious progress and will be operational in the near future. Terry will you make your BMS flash available through this as well or will it be restricted to the cobb users?
    I would say this is a godsend for BMS as well. Their customers will not need to shell out almost double the price of the JB4 in order to be able to install their backend flash.

    But of course, there will be users who will skip the JB4 altogether because of this Click here to enlarge

  16. #116
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    Def keeping the JB4, terry has been great and his support alone makes his product a staple for my setup. I hope this moves forward, this open source solution will not even dent Cobbs sales IMO, this will be only for the more hardcore modders that are willing to take chances with their $4X,XXX+ car. Not that cobb should "support" this venture, but it will look bad on them to try to block any progress on the platform. I think Cobb is an awesome product and honestly had it been available when I chose a tune I likely would have gone that route for ease of use.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



  17. #117
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Ahhh thats pretty awesome

    strange i've never really heard about anyone making their own map in ATR.... I'd be all over that for fun lol
    Plenty of us have our own maps. I have a few and have made a few for others/locals.
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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  18. #118
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    Def keeping the JB4, terry has been great and his support alone makes his product a staple for my setup. I hope this moves forward, this open source solution will not even dent Cobbs sales IMO, this will be only for the more hardcore modders that are willing to take chances with their $4X,XXX+ car. Not that cobb should "support" this venture, but it will look bad on them to try to block any progress on the platform. I think Cobb is an awesome product and honestly had it been available when I chose a tune I likely would have gone that route for ease of use.

    N54s can be had for 10k these days if you look around. this 40k argument needs to be put to rest.

  19. #119
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    Getting some beat to $#@! 335i base with 150k miles for 10k is hardly a comparable trade if something goes wrong with their original car and they blow something up. I know that when I wrecked my 135 last year and I was shopping around for a 335 I was not impressed with the cars out there for less than 25k.
    SYVECS Standalone l Motiv Port Injection with Fuel It Stage 3 LPFP l MFactory LSD l CFS Racing Radiator l m3 front and rear control arms l ST Coilover System Vargas Stage 2+ Fully Upgraded Turbos l Vargas Inlet System l VRSF DP | VRSF FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | BMS Trunk Meth l Nitrous Express Dry l Evolution Raceworks Charge Pipe with n20/meth bungs l Vargas HPFP Upgrade v1 l Agency Power Exhaust with n55 mid pipes l Apex AERO-7 Lightweight Wheels l Toyo R888s



  20. #120
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    The cars have definitely gotten a lot cheaper. You can get a nice N54 for 25k or a trashed one for 15k. Used 50k mile long blocks go for 3-5k. It's been a real boon to our aftermarket part sales. Last year we did a crazy amount of business and this year is even busier.

    As I've said before we strongly support Cobb but will offer a JB4 back end flash tune in whatever formats we can. In the case of an open flash format we'll just post what tables we modify and with what values and it will be up to the end user to sort out the implementation. Those who want a plug and play style back end flash can use Cobb and those who don't mind doing some work to save a little money can do it themselves.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 04-25-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  21. #121
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think they don't believe there will be consequences.
    There won't be. http://chillingeffects.org/reverse/faq.cgi#QID195 Reverse Engineering is legal.
    It's very clearly legal when it doesn't involve 'decompilation' or inspection of binary data, that is, breaking down ATR/ATP software. Or breaking down the hardware into it's various components.
    From what I've read of the original thread it seems like the engineer in question might have used a data logger in between the OBDII and the Cobb unit then logged the traffic while changing table values in ATR/ATP. This is a widely accepted and legal way to collect information and in no way infringes upon Cobb's IP.

    Here's where it gets 'suspect':
    If Cobb owned a patent on a handheld standalone flashing device with the ability to tune on the fly and change maps and then the open source folks decided to create another handheld standalone flashing device, they would be in violation of the patent and in violation of IP laws. If Cobb owned a patent on specific pieces of software or software features used in tuning then they could pursue offending parties if they re-created that functionality in their own software.

    I don't think any of the above two issues are in play here.

    FWIW I think that the open source flashing is a great development, but I would still rather buy into a commercially supported project like Cobb. I can understand their frustration with this competition but would urge the people who feel the most slighted (the engineers who put their blood and sweat into the program) to take a broader view and take a step back from taking the fight to the forums.
    LEMANS BLUE M-TECH E92->PROCEDE REV3::ETS 7" FMIC::RACELAND DPS::WAVETRAC DIFF::DEFIV DIFF LOCKDOWN::DEFIV OCC::DEFIV INTAKE::RB PCV

  22. #122
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The cars have definitely gotten a lot cheaper. You can get a nice N54 for 25k or a trashed one for 15k. Used 50k mile long blocks go for 3-5k. It's been a real boon to our aftermarket part sales. Last year we did a crazy amount of business and this year is even busier. As I've said before we strongly support Cobb but will offer a JB4 back end flash tune in whatever formats we can. In the case of an open flash format we'll just post what tables we modify and with what values and it will be up to the end user to sort out the implementation. Those who want a plug and play style back end flash can use Cobb and those who don't mind doing some work to save a little money can do it themselves.
    I saw an 07 E90 with 75k miles for 12k the other day in great condition. not the greatest of lookers but for the power potential its a steal. maybe one day ill snag a bare bones 135i as a project car.

  23. #123
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    It's very clearly legal when it doesn't involve 'decompilation' or inspection of binary data, that is, breaking down ATR/ATP software. Or breaking down the hardware into it's various components.
    But I think this is the point of contention, that Cobb software was broken down.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    But I think this is the point of contention, that Cobb software was broken down.
    If COBB can successfully pursue someone who is creating an open source project based on their code being decompiled, then Siemens / BMW can successfully pursue COBB for decompiling and reverse engineering their DME codes.
    Actually since it appears that the DME employs anti-tampering logic then both COBB and the open source project might be liable under novel applications of the DMCA act. The open source project of course having the advantage of being a non-commercial enterprise (not profiting.)

    I didn't read from the original thread that COBB software had been decompiled or that chunks of 'logic or other routines' had been lifted.

    Of course the end open-source project -must not- use any code 'plagiarized' from the 'decompiled source' however the likelihood of a prosecution arising from that seems remote and unlikely (due to the difficulty of providing evidence to the fact).

    Again, competition spurs innovation, so I'm excited to see what will come of the Open Source project and how Cobb will innovate with their superior R&D and engineering resources!
    LEMANS BLUE M-TECH E92->PROCEDE REV3::ETS 7" FMIC::RACELAND DPS::WAVETRAC DIFF::DEFIV DIFF LOCKDOWN::DEFIV OCC::DEFIV INTAKE::RB PCV

  25. #125
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    If COBB can successfully pursue someone who is creating an open source project based on their code being decompiled, then Siemens / BMW can successfully pursue COBB for decompiling and reverse engineering their DME codes.
    Is it apples to apples in this comparison? In my opinion there is a difference between cracking code and altering programming from an OEM and using stated cracked code to alter programming which was altered/cracked by someone else.

    If you spend time programming software say for a computer with certain hardware and I download that same exact software to be used with similar hardware and make some changes, and then release it into the public, did I do anything wrong? Can I just make some changes to windows and then release it for free without Microsoft going after me?

    This isn't obviously an exact example but just want to show the slippery slope here, it isn't clear cut.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    Again, competition spurs innovation, so I'm excited to see what will come of the Open Source project and how Cobb will innovate with their superior R&D and engineering resources!
    All for innovation, not for IP theft. We'll see how this develops I just hope nothing from Cobb was stolen.
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