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    Fitting other exhaust manifolds

    I was looking at the recent maximum psi s54 dyno and had an idea. Could we fit turbo manifolds for other bmws on our cars? I understand that you would have to reflange the manifold but thats much cheaper than a custom manifold especially if you can weld. I found measurements of the s54 motor and on the exhaust side the center to center bore is 91mm which happens to match up with the measurements found here http://roycormier.net/cad-downloads/. I believe this 91mm number is common with multiple bmw motors including M50, S52, S50, M52tu, and M54 possibly even more. This could potentially mean buying cheap manifolds made for old bmws reflanging them and having a perfectly good manifold for sub 1k. Does anyone have ideas on a specific maniold that could work? Id be willing to buy one considering most old bmw manifolds can be found for cheap.
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    I don't think that the manifolds are really the problem... You're going to want to have a matching turbo, down pipe, and no matter where you buy it, you're going to need the fittings, lines, etc. Thats why this is a kit. You can always try to save money here and there, but a lot of times its not worth the headache unless you're just one of those people who like to do things themselves.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I don't think that the manifolds are really the problem... You're going to want to have a matching turbo, down pipe, and no matter where you buy it, you're going to need the fittings, lines, etc. Thats why this is a kit. You can always try to save money here and there, but a lot of times its not worth the headache unless you're just one of those people who like to do things themselves.
    I think the fact there is no manifold available out there sans the vishnu one is the main problem
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    I think the fact there is no manifold available out there sans the vishnu one is the main problem
    This is true, but they will be out if you give it some time... The fueling solutions finally appears to be getting resolved and the tuning is coming into line with the ProEFI and cobb with internal gates. This will spur on the stand alone manifold production.
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    Not sure what your're referring to as "turbo manifolds for other BMWs" since I believe they're only two 6-cylinder factory turbocharged motors (N54 and N55).

    Also, since the turbocharger housing is integral to the exhaust manifold, it's not as if it could be simply "spliced" onto an exhaust manifold from an S54.

    Neil

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    OP, just realized I misread your post. Ignore my comment above!

    Sorry.

    Neil

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    ignore

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    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    I think the OP misunderstands the spacial constraint issues, it'll be a bit more difficult than 'using another flange'.

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    If you were looking for a low cost, tight space solution, spa makes a good log manifold for the m5x/s5x motors. Looking at it, it seems that it may be small enough to fit, but you would still need to match a turbo, downpipe, oil/water lines, not to mention figure out a wategate situation. After all this you would still need to solve the o2 sensor situation. Either making bungs for them pre turbo (which would not work because the banks would not be isolated) or putting them in the downpipe which would require tuning like NickG did on the s54 ecu.. Shiv seems to think that he has the problem solved with his "Thermal isolaters" but both heat and pressure are both issues with putting the sensors pre turbo. I would think it is going to protrude to far out and you would become very limited on your turbine and compressor sizes. Looks like it would take lots of $$$


    Go for it Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    I think the OP misunderstands the spacial constraint issues, it'll be a bit more difficult than 'using another flange'.
    This.

    It's not the one part, it's the integration that will make or break it.

    To each his own but this also supposes that somehow the single turbo config with pre-turbo banked and isolated 02s is proven reliable and is the way to go. I wish everyone that tries this approach the best of luck and it may turn out to be fine, but I suspect twins like VTT will turn out to be the better approach vs ST re tuning headaches. We'll see.

    I'm sure someone will make a decent ST manifold some day, but it may wind up being popular only on the N55. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    I think the fact there is no manifold available out there sans the vishnu one is the main problem
    Low Demand & until a viable tuning module exists, it's going to remain that way. That's why HPF 335i was asking if anybody has an in with COBB (because the PROcede isn't cutting it & they have success on other ST platforms with a traditional WG setup)
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    my boys at proven power in Tampa can build you a badass manifold.
    they may need your car though
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    my boys at proven power in Tampa can build you a badass manifold.
    they may need your car though
    do they have a jig of the manifold they built you?
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    do they have a jig of the manifold they built you?
    i don't know for sure. that's why I said they might need your car.. hit them up and ask for darrell. he can build whatever you want
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BavarianBullet Click here to enlarge
    I'm sure someone will make a decent ST manifold some day, but it may wind up being popular only on the N55. Click here to enlarge
    This is what scares me. How long before the N55 becomes so popular that the single setup is abandoned completely? While I think the twin setup is superior in many aspects; it's always nice to have options, and I think a proper single could be very affordable.

    If/when the N55 market explodes, then ST on the N54 might end up being a dead-end (unless ProEFI can get their $#@! together).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    If/when the N55 market explodes, then ST on the N54 might end up being a dead-end (unless ProEFI can get their $#@! together).
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BavarianBullet Click here to enlarge
    I'm sure someone will make a decent ST manifold some day, but it may wind up being popular only on the N55. Click here to enlarge

    Doubtful, even besides the fact that the N55 has a turbo that is seriously limiting it's aftermarket performance, there's a reason why the N54 receives significantly more aftermarket support and attention. People are enamored with single turbo setups, especially because the comparison made between the 2JZ & N54; and if you want to achieve the highest HP, a big single is gonna be the way to do it.

    Once again, until a viable tuning solution is released that would successfully allow a non-OEM vacuum WG setup to work, we're going to be limited to our current options. One of the reasons why the Vargas Stage 3s are such a hit is because they reuse the OEM WG setup, which allows you to use any currently available tune option (COBB, JB4, PROcede, even GIAC, RENNtech, etc etc).


    In addition, because the N54 is a older motor, tuning is more explored & the parts themselves are cheaper (N54 powered cars can be had for sub-$25k). When the ProEFI (or any other standalone that some1 may choose to drop a chunk of change for a custom setup), it'll open the flood gates for Single Turbo N54s so long as it is a successful, turn-key setup.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    In addition, because the N54 is a older motor, tuning is more explored & the parts themselves are cheaper (N54 powered cars can be had for sub-$25k). When the ProEFI (or any other standalone that some1 may choose to drop a chunk of change for a custom setup), it'll open the flood gates for Single Turbo N54s so long as it is a successful, turn-key setup.
    I agree. A single is cheaper to build and at the moment a lot harder to tune vs what vtt/ptf has shown with twins. So pick your poison: save few $ on hardware with a single and deal with tuning headaches or pay a little more (err, less vs VFFTEC ST) for VTT twins and pick your favorite tune and enjoy the power.

    If the N54 makes 4 digit hp someday, its prob going to be with a single turbo and proefi or equivalent as you said. Floodgates will open for those with $$$.

    N55 market is going to heat up pretty damned fast once the first hybrid turbo upgrades get out, believe me. With the hpfp and other roadblocks out of the way courtesy of the n54 dev, the n55 is going to enjoy a much shorter dev cycle. Hopefully the n55 and 8AT in the F30 are up to the task.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    This is what scares me. How long before the N55 becomes so popular that the single setup is abandoned completely? While I think the twin setup is superior in many aspects; it's always nice to have options, and I think a proper single could be very affordable.

    If/when the N55 market explodes, then ST on the N54 might end up being a dead-end (unless ProEFI can get their $#@! together).
    The n55 market will light up if the hybrid turbo upgrades can be had for sub $3k like the n54s. Otherwise it will just take a little longer.

    I think proefi will prevail and offer an n54 product, the question is at what price and will that drive the cost on a single too high vs what VTT st3 is offering (which is readily tunable to maybe 800whp or more). After 800whp its going to probably need to be a single just from space constraints.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    People are enamored with single turbo setups, especially because the comparison made between the 2JZ & N54; and if you want to achieve the highest HP, a big single is gonna be the way to do it.
    And which platform is it going to be easier to do a big single on? The one with DME-mandated twin O2 banks or the one without? I'd put money on without. Sure there's ProEFI, but the cost difference between a big single and a 'medium' single (all of them are medium on this powerplant) isn't all that much money. The difference between ProEFI and stock DME is immense.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Once again, until a viable tuning solution is released that would successfully allow a non-OEM vacuum WG setup to work, we're going to be limited to our current options. One of the reasons why the Vargas Stage 3s are such a hit is because they reuse the OEM WG setup, which allows you to use any currently available tune option (COBB, JB4, PROcede, even GIAC, RENNtech, etc etc).
    Honestly, the OEM to standard WG config change isn't THAT hard. It's hard for a DME, but it can be done; seriously it's not rocket science. You can probably doodle a solution on your desk. Start with a vacuum-actuated pressure valve. The biggest reason the Vargas setup is a hit is because of the OEM O2 placement. That one issue broke many aftermarket attempts in the past.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    In addition, because the N54 is a older motor, tuning is more explored & the parts themselves are cheaper (N54 powered cars can be had for sub-$25k). When the ProEFI (or any other standalone that some1 may choose to drop a chunk of change for a custom setup), it'll open the flood gates for Single Turbo N54s so long as it is a successful, turn-key setup.
    Or not because the N55 ends up being easier to modify because the stock DME can be retained; which is the point of my post. The N55 cars will be cheap enough soon to where the entry costs will suppress expensive aftermarket purchases. ProEFI is not cheap.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    Honestly, the OEM to standard WG config change isn't THAT hard. It's hard for a DME, but it can be done; seriously it's not rocket science. You can probably doodle a solution on your desk. Start with a vacuum-actuated pressure valve. The biggest reason the Vargas setup is a hit is because of the OEM O2 placement. That one issue broke many aftermarket attempts in the past.
    It's not hard, but it's not gonna be feasible on any of the current tune options (or at least on their tune configurations). YES, switching over to the ProEFI standalone for the N54 will open a LOT of doors, but you're looking a ~$4k EMS + Harness, and then tuning on top of that.

    Am I looking forward to the ProEFI N54 setup, ABSOLUTELY. If the Vargas HPFP & a dual LPFP setup continues to prove itself on the Vargas Stage 3 test cars, it'll def open up all the doors to go complete FlexFuel with the ProEFI in the safest setup. It'll also allow Anti-Lag from a Dig + Roll, which will be a huge performance advantage for 1/4 Mile + Roll Races.
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    Does the N55 use the same HPFP? I'm assuming so? That is a big deal for N55 users. ProEFI N55, bypass the Valvetronic? May be a good recipe for those looking to build the internals, assuming there is a difference between N55 block and N54. I also think I heard something about the N55 head flowing more?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Does the N55 use the same HPFP? I'm assuming so? That is a big deal for N55 users. ProEFI N55, bypass the Valvetronic? May be a good recipe for those looking to build the internals, assuming there is a difference between N55 block and N54. I also think I heard something about the N55 head flowing more?
    No guarantees that the N54 software will directly translate over to the N55, and chances are it won't because of Valvetronic. The software programming for the cam timing (?? -- somewhere in the ProEFI thread) is what's been holding up the whole project.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    No guarantees that the N54 software will directly translate over to the N55, and chances are it won't because of Valvetronic. The software programming for the cam timing (?? -- somewhere in the ProEFI thread) is what's been holding up the whole project.
    It might not translate over, but it can be coded to do so, will just take more time and money. Regardless, tuning the valvetronic out is my reasoning for mentioning the ProEFI. Hopefully that would eliminate the main deterrent.
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