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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dblrguy Click here to enlarge
    A few have commented to do ALL the bushings. By all, do you mean the ones that are in the control arms and the subframe bushings or are there more I should be looking at?

    ~Nate
    ALL the bushings, I don't know how many miles your car has but chances are at the power levels you're pushing the OEM bushings aren't gonna last if you regularly push the car aggressively (especially if you're considering Track Driving School)
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    Thanks for your other comment inline. There are a couple on here that are "throwing" around the $15K number with suspension. I don't consider the wheel/tire combo or LSD to be suspension. Even if I max out MY list with CO, all control rods, bushings, sways, adj end links, and diff lockdown I'm still under the 5.5K mark. I'm going to be under the $15k mark with suspension, LSD, and stage 2 turbos.

    I want this thread to appeal to those that add up all the M3 bits and a set of COs and get discouraged. If this discussion continues with good info I think more people might better understand what each part actually does and what they ACTUALLY need for their car to handle how they want/need.

    ~Nate

  3. #28
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    Moving this to 3-Series->E9X

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dblrguy Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for your other comment inline. There are a couple on here that are "throwing" around the $15K number with suspension. I don't consider the wheel/tire combo or LSD to be suspension. Even if I max out MY list with CO, all control rods, bushings, sways, adj end links, and diff lockdown I'm still under the 5.5K mark. I'm going to be under the $15k mark with suspension, LSD, and stage 2 turbos.

    I want this thread to appeal to those that add up all the M3 bits and a set of COs and get discouraged. If this discussion continues with good info I think more people might better understand what each part actually does and what they ACTUALLY need for their car to handle how they want/need.

    ~Nate
    Sounds good Nate - looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the finished product!

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    ALL the bushings, I don't know how many miles your car has but chances are at the power levels you're pushing the OEM bushings aren't gonna last if you regularly push the car aggressively (especially if you're considering Track Driving School)
    I'm at 35K miles now. I've been stock power wise for the last 4K miles. Took all my mods off for my move this winter. When tuned (FBO+meth) I'm at almost the exact numbers you're at.

    Bushing list:
    Control arms x8 (16 bushings)
    Subframe (4 bushings)
    Engine (Not sure the number but I'll look when the time comes)
    Trans (Not sure the number)
    Diff
    What other bushings are there?

    ~Nate
    Last edited by dblrguy; 04-03-2013 at 10:08 PM. Reason: I can't do math....

  6. #31
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    Fourteen
    Click here to enlarge

  7. #32
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    When replacing the front 335 arms with the M3 arms be aware that the M3 part has a spherical bearing built into the "wishbone" (the lower arm) so there is nothing to replace bushing wise here. The bushing in the tension strut (front arm) could be replaced, but it's probably not critical considering the M3 comes with those bushings, and they will be brand new when you replace the front arms.

    Also, if you upgrade to an adjustable toe link (track strut as referred to by Real OEM) in the rear, you will be replacing bushings with rod ends, so that is four less bushings as well. Upgrading this part provides additional rear stability over the stock parts because of the rigidity of the arms and rod ends being greater than the stock parts. It's not as much for adjustability of the rear toe if I understand correctly, as long as you keep the ride height approximately the same. You should by the way, because BMW designed the suspension around this particular ride height. Things like dynamic camber and bump steer could adversely be affected if you start messing with the ride height too much.

    I wouldn't worry about the access to the adjustable dampers in the front. You should set your dampers to match your springs, and really shouldn't need to adjust them after that. One of the advantages of Ground Control is they do this for you on using their damper dyno. I would completely leave off the M3 strut tower brace.

    I would say replace wheels, tires, dampers, springs, rear subframe bushings and M3 front arms, then go from there. Dampers and springs could be coilovers, but don't necessarily have to be, although my goals for handling seem to be very close to yours (DD with occasional track use), and I will be getting the Ground Control kit which includes the rear, lower M3 arms. Replacing the rear lower arms is a good idea because the 335 parts are stamped steel and the M3 parts are cast aluminum. The M3 parts are more rigid, which is good for suspension arms. You want the only movement to be in your dampers and springs. If you are interested in performance, don't overlook the weight of the wheels. Lighter wheels will improve acceleration, braking, and handling.

    If you decide you need more, do the sway bars front and rear, and the rest of the bushings. If you have problems putting power down, do the LSD. I would stay away from a clutch type for the street as you'll have problems in places like parking lots and other situations where you need to maneuver the car in tight spaces. Also a clutch type LSD will require a finned aluminum diff cover to dissipate the heat created by the clutches. Quaife and Wacetrac both make reputable products that work well on the street and require no overpriced diff covers. I am up in the air about the necessity of having adjustable sway bars for a DD with mostly street use. Also keep in mind adjustable sway bar end links and adjustable sway bars are not the same thing. If you keep close to stock ride height, the adjustable end links are probably overkill for a mostly street machine.

    I would leave off the diff lock down kit unless you plan to do hard launches.

  8. #33
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    good info, I'd rep it if I could right now (I'm out of points for the day)

  9. #34
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    Solid info

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    If you plan on doing the rear subframe bushings, make sure to do it at the same time as the rear sway bar. It will save a lot on install costs.
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

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  11. #36
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    Thanks everyone for the input. GC kit has been ordered. I also talked to Harold at HPA. He is a great guy, I just see that I get more from the GC kit. Have not seen many used GC parts for sale which I see as a good sign. Got the Complete Coil-over kit plus adj toe links. Hoping I can be happy with this for a bit. Next stage is LSD, Sways and subframe bushings, unless I find any of them for sale NIB on the cheap. I'm not worried about the labor (DIY) and really want to do the bushings because of all the positive reviews. Concerned now the it will be so tight I will have traction problems and be pushed into the LSD before my MOD fund is replenished. Click here to enlarge

    Does anyone have any more info on spring rates? I'd read back a bit and seen some of the threads about how high GC suggests. Thoughts? I still have a couple days to finalize my rates. For now they will be 430/700.

    ~Nate

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    Not worried about install costs as I'm DIY. I actually teach people how to install bushings as part of my job right now.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dblrguy Click here to enlarge
    Does anyone have any more info on spring rates? I'd read back a bit and seen some of the threads about how high GC suggests. Thoughts? I still have a couple days to finalize my rates. For now they will be 430/700.
    bump

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    I hate to post a link but it answers the specific question.

    [EDIT] Out is curiosity, what was the rational behind the spring rates? From what I am reading, they appear to be a lot of different spring rates used, and the guys at Ground Control help the customer decide, so I'm curious why these rates were chosen.
    Last edited by ajm8127; 04-04-2013 at 09:49 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    I hate to post a link but it answers the specific question.
    So copy and paste:

    I went with 375F 750F for this kit, the ride is still pretty acceptable for DD, but I wouldn't want anything higher either because I don't track my car much. You will also want the M3 subframe bushings for this kind of spring rate.

    375# front springs are special GC spec because the softest 6" spring that Eibach makes is 450#, you can probably still get away with that for DD with 800# or 850# rear springs.

    BTW $2100 for this kit is just awesome if you look at how much the M3 lower camber links (not trailing arms) are going for now, the kit even comes with camber plates.

  16. #41
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    I know I have read that thread. Thanks for the post. Going to look hard at everything over the weekend. These rates are not far off of TCKline or HPA at 350/650. (I say not far off but I have ZERO understanding of the impact of this difference.)

    ~Nate

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    I'm having bilstein revalve my pss9 struts to accept 392/784 swift springs. Ill report back

  18. #43
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    As I've said, I have the Ground Control kit with rear toe links on the way. I have also found a Race shop (Not specifically BMW) that understood what I wanted when I said coilovers and camber plates. How do these look for alignment settings?


    Camber F: -1.8 R:-2.0
    Toe in F: .04 R: .08
    Caster (Not adjustable right?)

    Anything else I should have to tell the shop to be sure they do it right? I've already agreed with them that there is no 'range' I want it set right. I'm also going to make a deal that I get to come back in a month to verify it’s still in spec.

    ~NATE

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    The specs I've seen posted with the most explanation are for those on a spring & shock drop. Harolds specs are with front M3 arms and top mount alignment pin removed, to have maximum front camber at -1.5. As I have the street camber plates I can push that a bit further. Ive searched back and read all posts from about the last two years about alignment but have yet to see the perfect I have this kit xxx with camber plates, I drive like this xxxx, see this tire wear xxxx, using these settings xxxxxx. The specs Ive posted are a good average from reading MANY posts and suggestions.

    As I see and understand:

    Camber: -2.0 about max to run on the street for handling and tire wear. Also takes into account softer non-rft sidewall.

    Toe: Some like toe-in, just a little for the street to prevent wondering and also adds to high speed steering response. Others say zero front and back will reduce tire wear. The only toe numbers Ive found are .04 F, .07 R and 1/16 F, 3/16 R. There was also a post by TC Kline Racing about having that little bit of toe in. (From memory) the post said something about minor toe in settings will be corrected naturally by the tires at speed and will add to steering response. I can understand how this could kind of pre-load some of the bushings and be a good thing.

    Caster: Not specifically adjustable stock or with the GC street plates. The GC plates do allow for caster corrective adjustment. Meaning that the street plates have enough adjustment to get back to stock specs. (From Trevor at GC). Again from memory not notes, Ive seen posted alignment sheets with 7 deg front and 7.7ish rear.

    My plan now:
    Everything should be shipped before the weekend. Im going to use info from posts by DallasBoosted, CALWATERBOY, and others for the install. Hoping I can set ride height for the look I want, about a 1 drop, with a suggested rake. PRAYING that I dont have any rubbing issues. Im going to try to use some of CALs suggestions for a close alignment just to get the car to the alignment shop.

    Expecting to spend a week or less to install: Tune, Intake, DPs, Intercooler, charge pipe, HSF-4, ECS braided brake lines, G2 caliper paint, Suspension & M3 bits, and mount the new shoes! I have done all of these things, except the M3 bits, on one car or another in the past. Looking forward to driving it into the garage stock and out a BEAST! Wish there was a faster easier way to DIY the alignment. I just know that by the time Im there I wont have the patience, but I also wont be able to enjoy my efforts until its [alignment] done right.

    ~Nate

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    Here's my experience (the short version Click here to enlarge ) :

    Once you start putting in M3 suspension parts (it often starts with the front control arms and the subframe bushings), you'll notice how the remaining stock 335i bushings are soft and really only comfort-oriented. So you'll surely end up by replacing more and more parts and bushings, sway bars, strut brace etc etc.

    Is this a bad thing? Only for your bank account. The car's handling will be TRANSFORMED!! Click here to enlarge
    E92 335i SB / Black Leather / 6AT / Navi Prof / Sunroof / Active Steering
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  21. #46
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    Weekend Project...

    Everything arrived last friday and looks good. Made it about 80% through the project over the weekend. Hoping to roll it out of the garage by thursday.

    A few parts...
    Click here to enlarge

    New shoes.
    Click here to enlarge

    ~Nate

  22. #47
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    Awesome man. Very excited to hear an update, you have a lot of parts to put on; the car should be totally different (in a good way).

    I would set the camber such that you see no difference in tire wear between the inside and outside edge. This will depend on your driving style and may need to be different on the track from the setting on the street.

    I would set a slight toe in up front for stability, as you mentioned. Maybe 1/16".

    For the rear, I have heard some toe in is usually present because it reduces the car's tendency to over steer. I see you got the toe links, so this should be easy to experiment with. If you find the car under steering too much on corner exists, maybe you could reduce some of this rear toe in.

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    I would recommend the TRW M front control arms. ECS has a package for them. They made a big difference up front!

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Project complete!


    It took me 2 full days and 5 days after work to install the new suspension and all of my old mods.


    First impressions: AMAZING!!!! It feels like there is endless grip. In just a few days of post alignment testing/enjoyment I've taken a 20 mph corner both directions at over 50 mph multiple times. I entered the corner at 35 and accelerated through as soon as turn-in was set. Trying to feel for under or over steer I really could not feel either. On one occasion in this corner I think I could feel what others have said about the rear end feeling odd or disconnected due to the stock subframe bushings. I was pushing the car so much harder than I normally do [read: past legal limits] this does not bother me at all, and I'll do the bushings when I do the LSD.


    Underside front:
    Click here to enlarge


    Underside rear:
    Click here to enlarge


    Both cars '06 330 (Black) with Koni yellow, H&R sport springs & '10 335i (White) with GC kit.
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge


    Lessons learned: The work was straight forward and posed no issues. The alignment was my only pain. There was only one shop willing and able to align my car within 50 miles. I think they knew this. After I was in and they looked at my car and I told them what I wanted I was forced to pay an hourly rate. The tech did take 4 hours to get it where I wanted it with ride height and specs but it was serious $$$$. It would have been cheaper to make a level spot in my garage and do a proper ride height setting on my own, then pay $147 (their normal alignment price). Check the ride height and adjust if needed and pay the $147 again to finalize the alignment. I fully understand that I paid for my impatience.


    Alignment spec sheet
    Click here to enlarge


    All in all I would do this all again if needed. Huge improvement over the stock sport or koni w/ H&R setup.


    ~Nate

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dblrguy Click here to enlarge
    Project complete!


    It took me 2 full days and 5 days after work to install the new suspension and all of my old mods.


    First impressions: AMAZING!!!! It feels like there is endless grip. In just a few days of post alignment testing/enjoyment I've taken a 20 mph corner both directions at over 50 mph multiple times. I entered the corner at 35 and accelerated through as soon as turn-in was set. Trying to feel for under or over steer I really could not feel either. On one occasion in this corner I think I could feel what others have said about the rear end feeling odd or disconnected due to the stock subframe bushings. I was pushing the car so much harder than I normally do [read: past legal limits] this does not bother me at all, and I'll do the bushings when I do the LSD.


    Underside front:
    Click here to enlarge


    Underside rear:
    Click here to enlarge


    Both cars '06 330 (Black) with Koni yellow, H&R sport springs & '10 335i (White) with GC kit.
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge


    Lessons learned: The work was straight forward and posed no issues. The alignment was my only pain. There was only one shop willing and able to align my car within 50 miles. I think they knew this. After I was in and they looked at my car and I told them what I wanted I was forced to pay an hourly rate. The tech did take 4 hours to get it where I wanted it with ride height and specs but it was serious $$$$. It would have been cheaper to make a level spot in my garage and do a proper ride height setting on my own, then pay $147 (their normal alignment price). Check the ride height and adjust if needed and pay the $147 again to finalize the alignment. I fully understand that I paid for my impatience.


    Alignment spec sheet
    Click here to enlarge


    All in all I would do this all again if needed. Huge improvement over the stock sport or koni w/ H&R setup.


    ~Nate
    Congrats!

    Great thread, great impressions, pics, details, everything. Nicely done glad you are enjoying it!

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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