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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ZooyorQ Click here to enlarge
    http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gifYou really think someone would do that? Go on the internet and tell lies? Click here to enlarge

    That would be almost as rare as Joe saying he is going to an event and then no showing.
    Click here to enlarge

    I will quit being rude if you quit being stupid.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ZooyorQ Click here to enlarge
    Like sticky said, everything is more linear in a S/C setup, making tuning it on the STOCK dme significantly easier. People are all concerned about what can/cannot fit on the e92 m3.. that's not the problem.. the problem is the engine management..

    Two approaches, trick the stock dme in combination with some user configurable can control.. or replicate the can and run on a standalone that supports user configurable can.. first option can lead to strange behavior on occasion as you're doing all sorts of trickery and isn't ideal.. that's not to say it can't be done as that's been a pretty common approach for years, the second option is ideal but VERY time consuming.
    Third approach - run full MoTec problem solved.

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    So hang on a minute.....

    I was on this thread last night and closed my computer as Jim was ripping into Sticky for not showing up. Then today I have a look and Jims posts are deleted and Jim got repped into the red pretty hard.
    So someone correct me if I am wrong....Jim pissed all over Sticky's build thread and Sticky banned him from posting in said thread. Jim starts his OWN thread (this one) and continues to go after Sticky only to be put on vacation and have his posts deleted....in his OWN thread ???

    Did I miss something ???? WTF ?????

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    Third approach - run full MoTec problem solved.
    That approach would entail removing most of the creature comforts, and oem dash, etc. The second approach I mentioned would be a full stand alone (motec or otherwise) that supports fully configurable can. Then you spend months reverse engineering the dme's can packets and try to replicate that functionality on the stand alone.

  5. #530
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    I have a 4th option.. Jr cart funds a turbo project, using my car, and sees if we can have running system before a certain other car is ready to rumble.. Using stock dme or pro efi, my suggestion..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Turbo ftw. Is it easier to SC a NA car? Just wondering why it seems like everyone goes for a SC on NA cars first.
    Costs.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ZooyorQ Click here to enlarge
    That approach would entail removing most of the creature comforts, and oem dash, etc. The second approach I mentioned would be a full stand alone (motec or otherwise) that supports fully configurable can. Then you spend months reverse engineering the dme's can packets and try to replicate that functionality on the stand alone.
    What does the ECU have to do with the dash ?? You can run the MoTec Street in conjunction with the stock ECU so that driveability does not suffer, or you can MoTec Race get rid of the stock ECU, maintain everything you had stock and get boost by gear. It's not hard it's just expensive. URG has been doing it for a while now.


    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    So hang on a minute.....

    I was on this thread last night and closed my computer as Jim was ripping into Sticky for not showing up. Then today I have a look and Jims posts are deleted and Jim got repped into the red pretty hard.
    So someone correct me if I am wrong....Jim pissed all over Sticky's build thread and Sticky banned him from posting in said thread. Jim starts his OWN thread (this one) and continues to go after Sticky only to be put on vacation and have his posts deleted....in his OWN thread ???

    Did I miss something ???? WTF ?????
    It pays to be an Admin Click here to enlarge

  9. #534
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
    If something is posted on the Internet it has to be true
    is that true?
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    Third approach - run full MoTec problem solved.
    That was the 2nd option he listed (standalone) Click here to enlarge. MoTec is the brand with the most recognition across all platforms, but there's also Pectel, ProEFI, Syvecs, AEM & Haltech (last 2 are burning out since they're not that great). Like ZooyorQ mentioned, the biggest problem is time because it takes a TON of time to wire & properly tune a standalone for every condition (You're basically rewriting the OEM Engine Functions all over again, so tuning for WOT, Partial Throttle, Rev Limiter, Fueling, Boost, etc etc), in addition to cost.

    A true (by definition) standalone would render all the OEM features (wireless entry, NAV, etc etc) useless since the DME is no longer doing anything. But the recent trend is that tuners are using standalones in heavily modded cars & using them to strictly control engine function (like UGR in their Lambos), which allows the OEM features to remain functional. Undercover does this with the ProEFI on the GTR, LMR used ProEFI on the Tejano Blue TT-Corvette, Switzer is using the Syvecs on their Porsches & GTRs, and UGR uses Motec.

    IMO, besides the cost, the biggest problem with a standalone is finding a tuner who knows what their doing, how to properly wire the system & has experience tuning with that specific standalone platform.
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  11. #536
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    That was the 2nd option he listed (standalone) Click here to enlarge. MoTec is the brand with the most recognition across all platforms, but there's also Pectel, ProEFI, Syvecs, AEM & Haltech (last 2 are burning out since they're not that great). Like ZooyorQ mentioned, the biggest problem is time because it takes a TON of time to wire & properly tune a standalone for every condition (You're basically rewriting the OEM Engine Functions all over again, so tuning for WOT, Partial Throttle, Rev Limiter, Fueling, Boost, etc etc), in addition to cost.

    A true (by definition) standalone would render all the OEM features (wireless entry, NAV, etc etc) useless since the DME is no longer doing anything. But the recent trend is that tuners are using standalones in heavily modded cars & using them to strictly control engine function (like UGR in their Lambos), which allows the OEM features to remain functional. Undercover does this with the ProEFI on the GTR, LMR used ProEFI on the Tejano Blue TT-Corvette, Switzer is using the Syvecs on their Porsches & GTRs, and UGR uses Motec.

    IMO, besides the cost, the biggest problem with a standalone is finding a tuner who knows what their doing, how to properly wire the system & has experience tuning with that specific standalone platform.
    I missed that second option re standalone but I already mentioned what URG has been doing with MoTec and that was my point. It IS possible, it's just very expensive.

  12. #537
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky68 Click here to enlarge
    is that true?
    As true as vettel saying he didn't understand what was meant by hold your position!
    Click here to enlarge

    I will quit being rude if you quit being stupid.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ZooyorQ Click here to enlarge
    Like sticky said, everything is more linear in a S/C setup, making tuning it on the STOCK dme significantly easier. People are all concerned about what can/cannot fit on the e92 m3.. that's not the problem.. the problem is the engine management..

    Two approaches, trick the stock dme in combination with some user configurable can control.. or replicate the can and run on a standalone that supports user configurable can.. first option can lead to strange behavior on occasion as you're doing all sorts of trickery and isn't ideal.. that's not to say it can't be done as that's been a pretty common approach for years, the second option is ideal but VERY time consuming.
    Ultimately a stock DME setup for the E92's makes the most sense I think and that is simply easiest with a centrifugal blower not to mention we are going to see that blower by default due to the ITB's anyway.

    Secondly, an SC can be installed and removed fairly easily without have to cut or weld anything major. It's always the easiest setup to get going and it just pairs well with these motors.

    Look at how long it has taken for a stock DME turbo E46 setup.
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  14. #539
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
    That would be almost as rare as Joe saying he is going to an event and then no showing.
    I've been to plenty of events. I can't help it if the car isn't ready no point in going. I prefer to do things on my schedule and when I'm ready. Nobody is stopping you from attending whatever you want but I'm personally even glad I didn't have to go to this crap and be at 100% anyway without even having driven the car.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
    As true as vettel saying he didn't understand what was meant by hold your position!
    thats worth a rep allday long lol!
    Click here to enlarge
    335i ~ JB4 ~ BMS ~ DCI ~ Active Autowerks CP & BOV ~ Borla Catback Exhaust

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    So hang on a minute.....

    I was on this thread last night and closed my computer as Jim was ripping into Sticky for not showing up. Then today I have a look and Jims posts are deleted and Jim got repped into the red pretty hard.
    So someone correct me if I am wrong....Jim pissed all over Sticky's build thread and Sticky banned him from posting in said thread. Jim starts his OWN thread (this one) and continues to go after Sticky only to be put on vacation and have his posts deleted....in his OWN thread ???

    Did I miss something ???? WTF ?????
    No posts are deleted they are all there as they always are and Jim's mouth doesn't match his power here. This thread was simply created to insult and berate people anyway, it has run its course.
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  17. #542
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    Costs.
    It's not just cost, it's time. How long you want to wait?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Ultimately a stock DME setup for the E92's makes the most sense I think and that is simply easiest with a centrifugal blower not to mention we are going to see that blower by default due to the ITB's anyway.

    Secondly, an SC can be installed and removed fairly easily without have to cut or weld anything major. It's always the easiest setup to get going and it just pairs well with these motors.

    Look at how long it has taken for a stock DME turbo E46 setup.
    I don't get why ITB cars need to go with a centri blower?? Does it have to do with the twin screw being placed right on the manifold and the centri is separate feeding into the intake manifold

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    I don't get why ITB cars need to go with a centri blower?? Does it have to do with the twin screw being placed right on the manifold and the centri is separate feeding into the intake manifold
    It's because of how the centri's deliver boost versus the positive displacement which is always making boost. You aren't manually spinning a wheel that increases with rpm and since they always make boost what happens when a throttle body closes? You want to pull through them not push into them.

    Someone would have to develop some pretty trick setup for it and I'd love to see it. Leaving the ITB's in place and doing a bypass valve to relieve pressure would work in theory but what happens if the valve fails? Runaway car?

    Converting it to a single throttle body that would be relocated may be possible but I'll leave it for someone else to figure out that mess.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    I don't get why ITB cars need to go with a centri blower?? Does it have to do with the twin screw being placed right on the manifold and the centri is separate feeding into the intake manifold
    Tuning for 8 individual throttle bodies is going to be a $#@!ing nightmare (and prob couldn't be done on the OEM DME). Centri's are the easiest, most basic superchargers, work on an every platform & are also the cheapest to produce (which is why you them the most often).
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  21. #546
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's because of how the centri's deliver boost versus the positive displacement which is always making boost. You aren't manually spinning a wheel and since they always make boost what happens when a throttle body closes? You pull through them not push into them.

    Someone would have to develop some pretty trick setup for it I'd love to see it. Leaving the ITB's in place and doing a bypass valve to relieve pressure would work in theory but what happens if the valve fails? Runaway car?

    Converting it to a single throttle body that would be relocated may be possible but I'll leave it for someone else to figure out that mess.
    You would need to convert the car to a single throttle body in order to use a twin screw. Even if you could, there would be no benefit to retaining ITB's once you install the blower. It's doable but very expensive.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    That was the 2nd option he listed (standalone) Click here to enlarge. MoTec is the brand with the most recognition across all platforms, but there's also Pectel, ProEFI, Syvecs, AEM & Haltech (last 2 are burning out since they're not that great). Like ZooyorQ mentioned, the biggest problem is time because it takes a TON of time to wire & properly tune a standalone for every condition (You're basically rewriting the OEM Engine Functions all over again, so tuning for WOT, Partial Throttle, Rev Limiter, Fueling, Boost, etc etc), in addition to cost.

    A true (by definition) standalone would render all the OEM features (wireless entry, NAV, etc etc) useless since the DME is no longer doing anything. But the recent trend is that tuners are using standalones in heavily modded cars & using them to strictly control engine function (like UGR in their Lambos), which allows the OEM features to remain functional. Undercover does this with the ProEFI on the GTR, LMR used ProEFI on the Tejano Blue TT-Corvette, Switzer is using the Syvecs on their Porsches & GTRs, and UGR uses Motec.

    IMO, besides the cost, the biggest problem with a standalone is finding a tuner who knows what their doing, how to properly wire the system & has experience tuning with that specific standalone platform.
    Bingo!



    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    I missed that second option re standalone but I already mentioned what URG has been doing with MoTec and that was my point. It IS possible, it's just very expensive.
    Every DME is different and the newer they get the more complex they get. More modules in the car utilizing CAN to communicate. Such as DSC modules, Comfort Modules, etc.. Your DSC requests a response from the DME asking for a variable, the response never comes because its on a standalone without CAN.. the DSC shuts down, limps, or otherwise causes issues.. the dash's these days are not the same as a gear driven 1970 Nova, most are using CAN to communicate with the DME. My E46 M3 has a older Siemen's in it that was pretty easy to trick compared to the MSS65 (newer Siemens in the E92 M3). The newer Siemens can apparently detect slight voltage drops indicating something else is tapping into sensors.. enough that it will throw the dme into limp. Super sensitive stuff. Believe it or not the lamborghini's that UGR (technically john reed) has been tuning are significantly less complicated then the DME's in the newer BMW's. It can be done, and if you look at what Syvec's is doing with the GTR that is the ULTIMATE way to do it.. basically reverse engineer (google reverse engineering can bus to see just how time consuming it is) the entire can bus and replicate it onto a stand alone.. the process to do this for most cars for a 1-2 man team is likely around a year.. there are other ways to do it. I've been working with Aurdino and their CAN Shield and working on basically a CAN Gateway, similar to how your ODBII port works. It has a CAN Gateway on it to protect you from screwing up your DME/Motor/Car with diagnostic equipment, by basically inspecting and repeating CAN signals from your car. I'd like to build a CAN Gateway to go between the DME and the rest of the CAN Network. Then snif the can until the car goes into limp/or otherwise.. determine why it did so.. what module/sensor was seeing variables it wasn't happy with and then write code (pretty simple) to remove that message from the can bus before it gets to the DME. Then potentially write code to instead repeat a 'acceptable' message back to the module that was throwing the code, suggesting everything is ok.. and to 'continue on'.

    I'm just getting into it so truth be told I could be way off, and my idea could be horse $#@!.. but I'm still learning CAN and reading up and practicing my EE skills.. so we'll see.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Ultimately a stock DME setup for the E92's makes the most sense I think and that is simply easiest with a centrifugal blower not to mention we are going to see that blower by default due to the ITB's anyway.

    Secondly, an SC can be installed and removed fairly easily without have to cut or weld anything major. It's always the easiest setup to get going and it just pairs well with these motors.

    Look at how long it has taken for a stock DME turbo E46 setup.
    The individual (Nick G) who essentially did the stock DME work with Maximum PSI did not spend the last 7 years developing what he did.. he did it relatively quickly.. there just wasn't a market for the kits as HPF had it cornered at the time. Now as these cars (E46 M3's) get down into the mid teen's in decent condition people will pick them up for $15k, toss $10k into them and have a 600rwhp stock dme tuned rocket.. not a bad deal.. me? I prefer a standalone.. I like the granular control... but thats just a preference.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    You would need to convert the car to a single throttle body in order to use a twin screw. Even if you could, there would be no benefit to retaining ITB's once you install the blower. It's doable but very expensive.
    I would be more than happy to watch you guys do it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ZooyorQ Click here to enlarge
    The individual (Nick G) who essentially did the stock DME work with Maximum PSI did not spend the last 7 years developing what he did.. he did it relatively quickly.
    Because he already had turbo E46 stock DME experience.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Because he already had turbo E46 stock DME experience.
    Valid point, but he does it as a hobby, part time.. so its not as if he was working through the night by candlelight for 7years to figure it out. He is (nick g) however a brilliant individual, especially for someone doing it as a hobby.

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