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  1. #201
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
    I haven't encountered any fuel issues yet. Like I was saying before we have the ysi on the low compression motor making over 600 right now on stock fuel pump.
    INTERESTING..... Click here to enlarge When can expect further details on the AA Low Compression S65 + YSI
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  2. #202
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    INTERESTING..... Click here to enlarge When can expect further details on the AA Low Compression S65 + YSI

    Still testing somethings but it should be soon.

  3. #203
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    Interesting...I don't see the thread.
    Click here to enlarge
    Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    I can say it, not sure you want to hear it..
    No.. that's knocking. Pulling timing does not create a jagged graph, it just smoothly lowers the graph and maybe add a few subtle waves if the timing is pulled by an equal amount globally on the WOT timing aim map.

    Under 5th gear the run is much longer and the DME has a much longer time to achieve the targets and the sampling rate is higher on the dyno due to the extended time given.

    Now, some of you have spoken about knock being possible at all. It is ONLY possibly if the targets are too high to start with. While the DME can retard knock it cannot do it fast enough on a boosted application. Knock tends to have very much a domino effect. Once it starts it keeps going. So you would have to pull massive timing quickly to stop the knock.

    These are the very basic fundamentals of engine tuning.

    Supercharged cars needs to be running as less timing as possible and that target should be set under the worst case scenarios where temperatures are high, octane is low, boost is high etc etc. Good tuning is always done for the worst conditions, not the best. Then you let the DME add to all of that with it's multiple compensation maps.
    Setting high ignition targets and letting the knock detection system control everything is not very clever.

    Further more, not changing the tune from one boost level to another is also a very common practice.

    The real test is high speed runs on the road for extended periods of time. Most of the kits on the market will have sky high inlet temps. High ignition targets + poor cooling = poor power.

    The top speed events really did show some interesting results of cars that were meant to be mid 600's getting beaten by sc cars which were rated at 600 but remained cooler. Oh, and these high boost setups when tested like this didn't last the day without required some serious engine work.

    Consistency is another really interesting subject not raised much by the BMW community. We only look at the best dyno run. No one ever asks for the non intercooled kits to be run 5-10 times in a row to see what the reality actually is.

    As for the inconsistent power and boost on kits, quite obvious what's going on there. This company is not alone in this. Other companies are up to it also and have been for a very very long time.

    Basic essentials -run as less boost as you possibly can, have a good tuning strategy which does not involve even getting close to knock even in the middle eastern summer climates and have the best possible cooling which gives the most consistent low inlet temperatures with excellent recovery rates.

  5. #205
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Basic essentials -run as less boost as you possibly can,
    This is something people forget. You want to make your power with as little heat as possible and an efficient motor helps. More power with less boost is always nice.

  6. #206
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    Well I think that settles it -- If (hopefully when) I ever get an E90 M3, I'm buying the @evolve S/C kit. Not point on spending ~$16k on the the "competition" to only get 1 glory run out of the car & an abused motor (c/o a $#@! tune).
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  7. #207
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    Well based on this 8.5 psi dyno jet run im not sure how they even get glory runs when a shop cant.

    Posted by AleksShop

    Car-1: RD Sport stroker with experimental short-tube headers, RD Sport exhaust, 91 Octane.
    Car-2: ESS Supercharged VT1-535, 5.5 PSI (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=354)
    Car-3: ESS Supercharged, VT2-600, 6.0 PSI (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=298)
    Car-4: ESS Supercharged VT2-650, 8.5 PSI (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=538)
    Car-5: RD Sport stroker + ESS Supercharged, 5.75 PSI boost. (Dyno Database: http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=149)

    Click here to enlarge

  8. #208
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    No.. that's knocking. Pulling timing does not create a jagged graph, it just smoothly lowers the graph and maybe add a few subtle waves if the timing is pulled by an equal amount globally on the WOT timing aim map.

    Under 5th gear the run is much longer and the DME has a much longer time to achieve the targets and the sampling rate is higher on the dyno due to the extended time given.

    Now, some of you have spoken about knock being possible at all. It is ONLY possibly if the targets are too high to start with. While the DME can retard knock it cannot do it fast enough on a boosted application. Knock tends to have very much a domino effect. Once it starts it keeps going. So you would have to pull massive timing quickly to stop the knock.

    These are the very basic fundamentals of engine tuning.

    Supercharged cars needs to be running as less timing as possible and that target should be set under the worst case scenarios where temperatures are high, octane is low, boost is high etc etc. Good tuning is always done for the worst conditions, not the best. Then you let the DME add to all of that with it's multiple compensation maps.
    Setting high ignition targets and letting the knock detection system control everything is not very clever.

    Further more, not changing the tune from one boost level to another is also a very common practice.

    The real test is high speed runs on the road for extended periods of time. Most of the kits on the market will have sky high inlet temps. High ignition targets + poor cooling = poor power.

    The top speed events really did show some interesting results of cars that were meant to be mid 600's getting beaten by sc cars which were rated at 600 but remained cooler. Oh, and these high boost setups when tested like this didn't last the day without required some serious engine work.

    Consistency is another really interesting subject not raised much by the BMW community. We only look at the best dyno run. No one ever asks for the non intercooled kits to be run 5-10 times in a row to see what the reality actually is.

    As for the inconsistent power and boost on kits, quite obvious what's going on there. This company is not alone in this. Other companies are up to it also and have been for a very very long time.

    Basic essentials -run as less boost as you possibly can, have a good tuning strategy which does not involve even getting close to knock even in the middle eastern summer climates and have the best possible cooling which gives the most consistent low inlet temperatures with excellent recovery rates.
    All great points. However, I'd like to add that no OTS tuning will ever be the best for all given driving/racing scenarios. If you tune the car for a 1 mile race, you can get better results out of the same setup if its retuned for the 1/4 mile. Same goes for road course racing, street, etc. There's no OTS setup that can satisfy ALL possible scenarios in the BEST way possible in the end. Custom tuning for each driving scenario will bring the best results on the very same setup at all times. This is especially the case with FI setups IMHO
    Click here to enlarge

  9. #209
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Well I think that settles it -- If (hopefully when) I ever get an E90 M3, I'm buying the @evolve S/C kit. Not point on spending ~$16k on the the "competition" to only get 1 glory run out of the car & an abused motor (c/o a $#@! tune).
    looks like we both have the same plans lol
    Click here to enlarge



    EURO 04 M3 Current Mods:GC DAs, Eibach Sways, PF RTAB's, RE RCAs, INTRAVEE II, Black Roundels, ///MFEST Badges, Depo's, Screen protector for NAV display, VCSL Bumper + Race Lip & CF Trunk & CF Rear Diffusor, DIETZ TV in Motion, SS= V1 Headers + catless pipes + X-Pipe + SS Sport Exhaust, Z8 Starter Button, Lamin-X, OEM CSL interior, OEM CSL Steering, OEM CSL Intake, OEM CSL Roof, MSS54HP + OEM CSL Tune, BBS CH's, LIGHTWERKZ, 355mm ST40 BBK, BW Oil Cooler....

  10. #210
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    All great points. However, I'd like to add that no OTS tuning will ever be the best for all given driving/racing scenarios.
    Can that really be said though, especially for a tune that's built to specific octane & boost levels? It's not like turbo tuning where you might run a low/mild boost map for an auto-x/race course tune, vs a very aggressive for top speed runs.


    Bottom line is the evolve kit isn't trying to be something it's not, and while the Rotrex doesn't have the top end that the Vortech offers, the evolve will most likely be the best all around, everyday enjoyable s/c kit that really accentuates the S65's characteristics while running a tune that is both safe & consistent.
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    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  11. #211
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Can that really be said though, especially for a tune that's built to specific octane & boost levels? It's not like turbo tuning where you might run a low/mild boost map for an auto-x/race course tune, vs a very aggressive for top speed runs.
    Yeah, look at it this way, road courses key is to finish the race, 1/4 mile you just need to make it down the track Click here to enlarge lots of tune related things can be optimized for power at the 1/4 mile when not worrying about heat soak in top speed runs and such...OTS will be a good all around tune but it will never give you the ultimate edge in any sort of racing. You can get fairly close with OTS to a good all around setup though.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Bottom line is the evolve kit isn't trying to be something it's not, and while the Rotrex doesn't have the top end that the Vortech offers, the evolve will most likely be the best all around, everyday enjoyable s/c kit that really accentuates the S65's characteristics while running a tune that is both safe & consistent.
    Don't know anything about any of these S65 kits other than what's being presented online and some things I've seen locally. I wouldn't have anything worth sharing there right now. From what I've seen so far they all perform well and some look to be of higher quality overall construction/build wise than others. If/when we get into tuning S65s we'll be able to share our thoughts better.
    Click here to enlarge

  12. #212
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 0-60Motorsports Click here to enlarge
    looks like we both have the same plans lol
    Lol an E90 M3 is the perfect casual, 4-door cruiser.... Beautiful exhaust note with 500 WHP+ on tap to unleash at any moment
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  13. #213
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Lol an E90 M3 is the perfect casual, 4-door cruiser.... Beautiful exhaust note with 500 WHP+ on tap to unleash at any moment
    500 whp? Are you being sarcastic I'm not sure.

  14. #214
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    500 whp? Are you being sarcastic I'm not sure.
    500 WHP+, because it completely depends on what octane & boost level you decide with the evolve kit (also if you're running the stock or aftermarket x-pipe). On 93 it looks like Evolve is targeting 7.5-8 psi (according to their website), which will put down low/mid 500 WHP with a catless exhaust.

    Side note, Active Autowerke (@Andrew@activeautowerke) is advertising 9 psi & 700 BHP/480 TQ. I haven't looked yet, but Evolve is using the the C38-91 while Active is using the C38-92 trim.
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  15. #215
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    500 WHP+, because it completely depends on what octane & boost level you decide with the evolve kit (also if you're running the stock or aftermarket x-pipe). On 93 it looks like Evolve is targeting 7.5-8 psi (according to their website), which will put down low/mid 500 WHP with a catless exhaust.
    No, no, my bad I had multiple threads open and confused this post with another topic.

  16. #216
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    Word, still interested to heard @Andrew@activeautowerke & @evolve to comment on the peak boost they're running for their top of the line (93 octane/aftermarket exhaust/stock motor) kits.

    It sounds like the Rotrex is easily capable of 640 BHP (running between 8-9 psi) & will yield more area under the curve than the Vortech V3 Si.
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  17. #217
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    We hit 591 whp with the AA kit at 8.7psi peak rotrex c38-92trim

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Word, still interested to heard to comment on the peak boost they're running for their top of the line (93 octane/aftermarket exhaust/stock motor) kits.

    It sounds like the Rotrex is easily capable of 640 BHP (running between 8-9 psi) & will yield more area under the curve than the Vortech V3 Si.

  18. #218
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VCMPower Click here to enlarge
    We hit 591 whp with the AA kit at 8.7psi peak rotrex c38-92trim
    E-mail me the graph admin@germanboost.com

  19. #219
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VCMPower Click here to enlarge
    We hit 591 whp with the AA kit at 8.7psi peak rotrex c38-92trim
    That is AWESOME -- Is there any difference between the C38-91 & 92 trims? And I'm guessing that was on 93 octane, pump gas?
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  20. #220
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    Nevermind, just went to the Rotrex page and looked at the tech specs. The 92 trim (Active) is marginally larger than the 91 (Evolve)
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  21. #221
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    94 oct pump and from what i hear no big difference for 91 to 92 trims

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    That is AWESOME -- Is there any difference between the C38-91 & 92 trims? And I'm guessing that was on 93 octane, pump gas?

  22. #222
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VCMPower Click here to enlarge
    94 oct pump and from what i hear no big difference for 91 to 92 trims
    It just a tiny but larger on one side. Anyway I think you guys should know we have been running 11 psi on our Shop car for like the last 4 months to prove these guys wrong about 9 psi being the number that will blow your engine. Compression came back fine as well everything else. Hate to say i told you so but its not the psi that's blowing engines its the bad tuning, amount of power its producing along with the heat associated with it.

    Side note ill be in Europe till the 1st so any pm's received will be answered then. Have a great weekend !

  23. #223
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
    It just a tiny but larger on one side. Anyway I think you guys should know we have been running 11 psi on our Shop car for like the last 4 months to prove these guys wrong about 9 psi being the number that will blow your engine. Compression came back fine as well everything else. Hate to say i told you so but its not the psi that's blowing engines its the bad tuning, amount of power its producing along with the heat associated with it.

    Side note ill be in Europe till the 1st so any pm's received will be answered then. Have a great weekend !
    Have a safe trip & that's awesome you guys are running all that boost with no engine failure, especially if it's on pump gas & the tune has been solid! I'm assuming you guys upgraded the rod bearings & bolts to eliminate that weakness?
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    @Andrew@activeautowerke - is it the rod-bearings that are bad, or the flexion of the block itself the problem with the S65 (with higher than normal power levels)? From everything I read - it's one or the other, curious if it's both.

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    I think it's more the rod bearings than anything else.

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