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  1. #51
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    Sick of shiv's "technical" rants that no one cares about. Sick of multiple claims without hard evidence to back it up. Sick of posts being deleted and infractions for calling him out. So I started up an account here Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory Click here to enlarge
    Shiv said they don't do that. You can take his word for it.Click here to enlarge
    He's also a French model..

  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Velocity26 Click here to enlarge
    His name is Laguna Seca Blue
    Win

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Glad I'm not the only person who thinks this. Not that I consider it a major drawback, just a necessity due to the design, which happens to be the only viable design for a single turbo atm.

    So I'm almost to double digit posts over there again. Maybe this time I wont get banned lol. (although to be fair, it was more personal with an admin than anything shiv related haha)
    All though some would not call it major, placing the O2's pre turbo is 100% a drawback and as you well know will severely shorten the life of the O2's among other things there is no need to rehash.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Increase timing further from MBT, and the combustion happens earlier. Two things can happen here--- DETONATION, because the increasing pressure while the piston is still traveling up causes other pockets of aircharge to ignite.
    Been driving back from Vegas all day and it looks like I have a lot of reading to catch up on tonight!

    The above sounds a bit more like preignition to me. But, you are correct. It's a balancing act. There are aspects of what Shiv is saying that I agree with. It's really his presentation that is the issue. Dzenno is doing the tuning so he gets to make the call on timing vs. boost and EGT vs. detonation. He's the only one that has seen that data and while at first thought running that sort of power level on 91 octane on the N54 seems pretty questionable to me, I don't see where Shiv or I really have any right to condemn it. Maybe we're wrong and it's 100% solid & safe. Without analyzing the data we can only speculate.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-31-2013 at 08:20 PM.
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  6. #56
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    Some are willing to make that concession for a functional single turbo build. For me it is a major enough drawback to not purchase the kit. But to some, it's minor. To each their own I guess, and in the few years the kits been out they seem to have worked out most of the kinks there (maybe).

    Would I call it ideal? Umm, no. Definitely not. It's a huge headache.

    Would I call tons of boost and no timing ideal? No, definitely not. But I would stop short of calling it reckless or unsafe until there was data there.

    Just speaking generally T, and detonation in caps is much more dramatic!

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Some are willing to make that concession for a functional single turbo build. For me it is a major enough drawback to not purchase the kit. But to some, it's minor. To each their own I guess, and in the few years the kits been out they seem to have worked out most of the kinks there (maybe).

    Would I call it ideal? Umm, no. Definitely not. It's a huge headache.

    Would I call tons of boost and no timing ideal? No, definitely not. But I would stop short of calling it reckless or unsafe until there was data there.

    Just speaking generally T, and detonation in caps is much more dramatic!
    I read what you wrote again and take back what I said above, it's basically the book definition of detonation. I mean, DETONATION. Click here to enlarge Heat & pressure causing multiple flame fronts. But preignition is the bigger motor risk IMHO. Anyway I think there is a fine line between asking if something is a good idea and publicly condemning it. Shiv frequently crosses that line IMHO and I really have no idea why. If its going to melt down it will melt down and then he can always chime in later and say 'ah-ha!" without looking like a troll in the process.
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  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Been driving back from Vegas all day and it looks like I have a lot of reading to catch up on tonight!

    The above sounds a bit more like preignition to me. But, you are correct. It's a balancing act. There are aspects of what Shiv is saying that I agree with. It's really his presentation that is the issue. Dzenno is doing the tuning so he gets to make the call on timing vs. boost and EGT vs. detonation. He's the only one that has seen that data and while at first thought running that sort of power level on 91 octane on the N54 seems pretty questionable to me, I don't see where Shiv or I really have any right to condemn it. Maybe we're wrong and it's 100% solid & safe. Without analyzing the data we can only speculate.
    Terry, I appreciate your post and as I am not the tuner I can't go into too much detail, but I have seen every log, pulled plugs to visually check them and as surprising as it was to me and D. At those boost levels on the 91, the car was happy, the logs were very very solid with nothing alarming in them except at those last power levels we started losing HPFP which is expected. The next step is to install the EGT probe and get a real good look at the EGT's and see what they can tell us. I have stated in the past, I am not afraid to break things to push the platform, this does not mean going ragged edge with a tune to see what we can make on 91, this means safely pushing the physical limits of the motor until we see the power we are happy with or something breaks. There is a pretty big difference between the two. I think Shiv has broken at least one motor and since he hasn't told anyone when or how. We do not know if this was due to tuning or actually physical limitations. I am assuming we will find out soon.

  9. #59
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    this is getting very interesting, terry shiv support what he says ...


    that is doing damage and Freaks ProTUNING cobb
    the untouchables tuners n54 ... Click here to enlarge
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wescuddles Click here to enlarge
    Sick of shiv's "technical" rants that no one cares about. Sick of multiple claims without hard evidence to back it up. Sick of posts being deleted and infractions for calling him out. So I started up an account here Click here to enlarge
    Welcome home!

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    All though some would not call it major, placing the O2's pre turbo is 100% a drawback and as you well know will severely shorten the life of the O2's among other things there is no need to rehash.
    Just ask @Eleventeen He's gone through around 3 o2 sensors on his custom single build. Now his manifold may not be an exact replica of the fftec one but just shows how having them pre turbo isn't exactly optimal. But unfortunately that's the only way ST guys can have a running car right now. Hopefully when the n54 pro efi is ready that will change.

  12. #62
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    The sensors are rated for around 900c. It would be interesting to see what the single turbo EGT is hitting @ 160mph in a half mile race. I assume the heavy amounts of meth used keep it in check but some data on race fuel and then also on E85 to compare the two would be nice.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-31-2013 at 09:11 PM.
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    The single guys need to get in contact with Nick G for tuning. What he has most recently done with the Maxpsi s54 platform is pretty amazing.

  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Terry, I appreciate your post and as I am not the tuner I can't go into too much detail, but I have seen every log, pulled plugs to visually check them and as surprising as it was to me and D. At those boost levels on the 91, the car was happy, the logs were very very solid with nothing alarming in them except at those last power levels we started losing HPFP which is expected. The next step is to install the EGT probe and get a real good look at the EGT's and see what they can tell us. I have stated in the past, I am not afraid to break things to push the platform, this does not mean going ragged edge with a tune to see what we can make on 91, this means safely pushing the physical limits of the motor until we see the power we are happy with or something breaks. There is a pretty big difference between the two. I think Shiv has broken at least one motor and since he hasn't told anyone when or how. We do not know if this was due to tuning or actually physical limitations. I am assuming we will find out soon.
    Like I said in an earlier thread I have a little different style. Prefer to start on high octane and work my way back to pump. But, it sounds like you guys have it under control. Getting EGT probes in there will provide some good relative data as well. Once I have a set I'll probably just start with some mix of E85 and go from there. Pump 91 is nasty stuff. Click here to enlarge
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  15. #65
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    Really anxious to see EGT data and what we're dealing with on what we have so far. Definitely a learning exercise and one that I really wanted to start off with when tuning these as Tony can confirm. I'm a complete data junkie, can never have too much to ponder on Click here to enlarge It surely helps to have the EGT references from back a year ago on pump gas and RB turbos and the OEM manifolds, really glad we have those...even though not sure if they'll help much in guiding our tuning at the end of the day, but you never know until you gather the data, right? heh

    Honestly though, I just wish Tony would just take that prototype kit off the test car and get it into production already LOL I want it up here by the time tracks open! hah
    Click here to enlarge

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    I can say with certainty that if there is anything more dzenno would love it is EGT data. I remember talking with him way back when about where and how to install them in the RBs. This was his push no mistake, he is a sponge and LOVES data and also loves to share whatever it is he finds. But once he got the data there was not much to do with it aside for realize it was not damaging in anyway. But I think it definitely would behoove dzenno or other tuners pushing pump gas/high boost/low timing to get EGT in the works asap or just move onto a fuel where the timing does not need as much or any retard. Keeping the DME happy is great but I do not think it has any checks or balances on the EGT side of things, so some external care would be prudent for sure. I do know on the last couple turbo failures I had seen that dzenno was pushing heavily (which I fully supported), that there was definitely signs of melting and catastrophic failure of the turbine. I do believe those were EGT related, but of course this is with much greater backpressure as well which certainly isn't going to help. To date I have never seen any other RB with that sort of failure from the bms or vishnu camps, but that could be because they have not pushed them as hard or perhaps its just the difference in tuning strategy. One thing is for certain, if there is an EGT problem with the current tune the free'er flowing housings are providing some salvation for the turbine itself (or they are a superior alloy than inconel).

    All in all, from both forums, theres alot to learn here today. Toss all the bashing aside, there HAS been some awesome tech discussions. Much to learn for all, and great info if you can wade through the nonsense. Happy easter all.

    Rob

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    I can say with certainty that if there is anything more dzenno would love it is EGT data. I remember talking with him way back when about where and how to install them in the RBs. This was his push no mistake, he is a sponge and LOVES data and also loves to share whatever it is he finds. But once he got the data there was not much to do with it aside for realize it was not damaging in anyway. But I think it definitely would behoove dzenno or other tuners pushing pump gas/high boost/low timing to get EGT in the works asap or just move onto a fuel where the timing does not need as much or any retard. Keeping the DME happy is great but I do not think it has any checks or balances on the EGT side of things, so some external care would be prudent for sure. I do know on the last couple turbo failures I had seen that dzenno was pushing heavily (which I fully supported), that there was definitely signs of melting and catastrophic failure of the turbine. I do believe those were EGT related, but of course this is with much greater backpressure as well which certainly isn't going to help. To date I have never seen any other RB with that sort of failure from the bms or vishnu camps, but that could be because they have not pushed them as hard or perhaps its just the difference in tuning strategy. One thing is for certain, if there is an EGT problem with the current tune the free'er flowing housings are providing some salvation for the turbine itself (or they are a superior alloy than inconel).

    All in all, from both forums, theres alot to learn here today. Toss all the bashing aside, there HAS been some awesome tech discussions. Much to learn for all, and great info if you can wade through the nonsense. Happy easter all.

    Rob
    No such thing as bad data! Rep'd.

    I bet he would also love to see the output from a shaft speed sensor on those RB's on his ported head. But I bet you wouldn't!

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    Sure would Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by CannonFodder Click here to enlarge
    The single guys need to get in contact with Nick G for tuning. What he has most recently done with the Maxpsi s54 platform is pretty amazing.
    E46 experience (and AMAZING experience and capability at this) doesn't transfer to different ECU's. People have their areas.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by CaptainInsano Click here to enlarge
    @dzenno,

    Is VR46s car running 24psi/91oct around town? I'm not looking to bash you or anything, I'm just curious.

    I wasn't sure if Tony wanted me to say, But yes when I do 3rd gear and 4th gear pulls the boost shoots to 23-24psi.

  21. #71
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by govr46 Click here to enlarge
    I wasn't sure if Tony wanted me to say, But yes when I do 3rd gear and 4th gear pulls the boost shoots to 23-24psi.
    It doesn't matter who wanted you to say lol. Say what you need to honestly, nobody will bash you or anything. You being honest is the best part. Knowing that if there is a problem and it gets fixed is even better. For now, it looks like it's all running smooth as hell. Keep up the good work guys.
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    I think that for turbos so large there are no differences in overall power or EGTs or anything between a single-turbo setup or a twin-turbo setup, given the same tuning and equivalently-chosen turbos. Also, a twin-turbo setup would have better low-end ONLY if the turbos would be on the smaller side and chosen to suit the engine.

    Anyone who tried to tune using ATR on larger turbos will immediately realize that Shiv@Vishnu is right in regards to the necessity of using very low timing on large boost. There is just no way around this given the engine's compression ratio. And yes, probably this means the EGTs, it's just physics.

    However, the Vishnu-FFTEC ST setup has some major flaws in my opinion. It could have been built to be more cost-effective than Vargas but they made some decisions to ease up their work and bring more profit while lowering the overall quality of the single turbo kit. The manifold should have been a twin-scroll manifold in order to separate the exhaust flows on the two O2 sensors, and ideally two wastegates should have been used. This way you could have used Procede or any other tuning solution, which would have been great, while only needing to buy one turbo. But right now you are stuck with Vishnu (or probably JB4) as a tuning solution (plus a mandatory flash) and this is not encouraging for a customer, but is probably good for Vishnu Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    I think that for turbos so large there are no differences in overall power or EGTs or anything between a single-turbo setup or a twin-turbo setup, given the same tuning and equivalently-chosen turbos. Also, a twin-turbo setup would have better low-end ONLY if the turbos would be on the smaller side and chosen to suit the engine.

    Anyone who tried to tune using ATR on larger turbos will immediately realize that Shiv@Vishnu is right in regards to the necessity of using very low timing on large boost. There is just no way around this given the engine's compression ratio. And yes, probably this means the EGTs, it's just physics.

    However, the Vishnu-FFTEC ST setup has some major flaws in my opinion. It could have been built to be more cost-effective than Vargas but they made some decisions to ease up their work and bring more profit while lowering the overall quality of the single turbo kit. The manifold should have been a twin-scroll manifold in order to separate the exhaust flows on the two O2 sensors, and ideally two wastegates should have been used. This way you could have used Procede or any other tuning solution, which would have been great, while only needing to buy one turbo. But right now you are stuck with Vishnu (or probably JB4) as a tuning solution (plus a mandatory flash) and this is not encouraging for a customer, but is probably good for Vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Bolded the part that has not changed since 2006....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    No such thing as bad data! Rep'd.
    Well, I remember someone posting a dyno from a single turbo Scion xB claiming that it was a 335i dyno. I won't point fingers but it got the entire E90post all riled up till someone dug into things up and disproved it.

    Take a wild guess what happened to that thread and which "supporting vendor" was involved at the time.... Click here to enlarge

    If anything, I'd be very skeptical about any data sets coming from Voldemort. He loves to cherry pick his data sets to present his product in the best light possible and I won't be surprised if he "doctors" some of the data....
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!
    Click here to enlarge

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    1 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    Well, I remember someone posting a dyno from a single turbo Scion xB claiming that it was a 335i dyno. I won't point fingers but it got the entire E90post all riled up till someone dug into things up and disproved it.

    Take a wild guess what happened to that thread and which "supporting vendor" was involved at the time.... Click here to enlarge

    If anything, I'd be very skeptical about any data sets coming from Voldemort. He loves to cherry pick his data sets to present his product in the best light possible and I won't be surprised if he "doctors" some of the data....
    yea, who did uncover that Unfor debacle..?

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