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  1. #51
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    You clearly can't read a log... Part throttle (70%) is the one log. Any logs from you?

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    You clearly can't read a log... Part throttle (70%) is the one log. Any logs from you?
    Don't think there's anything I can help you with..long weekend up here, going for a couple of Click here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

    Cheers!
    Click here to enlarge

  3. #53
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    With the flash in place the JB4 still runs fuel. It just doesn't need to o2 bias as much for lambda targets. The ISO is much better than a flash alone for ending manual shift bog even without NLS. But pretty much anyone serious about racing a manual these days just adds the JB4 NLS relay. Having the JB4 able to lower base duty cycle as a function of gear and time under boost makes a big difference when it comes to reducing those bog tendencies.

    On making more aspects of the boost control user adjustable there has never been a need. If one crops up we're happy to add it. But it's spot on with factory and RB turbos which is all its been used with so far.

    On all the "custom mapping" being done I think it's a lot of Shiv style hype. But since you lock the maps no one will really ever see what exactly you changed for them for the $250... Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-28-2013 at 10:38 PM.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    With the flash in place the JB4 still runs fuel. It just doesn't need to o2 bias as much for lambda targets. The ISO is much better than a flash alone for ending manual shift bog even without NLS. But pretty much anyone serious about racing a manual these days just adds the JB4 NLS relay. Having the JB4 able to lower base duty cycle as a function of gear and time under boost makes a big difference when it comes to reducing those bog tendencies.
    Your stacking approach involves zeroing out Fuel settings on the JB4 meaning JB4 hands fuel control over to the flash (Cobb map aka BMS Flash) as that works better. Same goes for timing where timing goes into your Cobb map. Procede has had ISO boost control for a very long time and it still experiences bogging on very fast shifts.

    NLS is a great feature but unfortunately its a bit sketchy with both the JB4 and the WOTBox. More often than not you can see in your datalogs that AFR flatlines lean post shift for whatever reason and doesn't come down to target (i.e. runs about 14-15 AFR post shift). A couple of members messaged me in the past and recently a few locals asked about that issue in their logs. I told them to get in touch with you. Has that been fixed? I couldn't really put my finger on why using NLS would at times do that. The issue is certainly there however.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On making more aspects of the boost control user adjustable there has never been a need. If one crops up we're happy to add it. But it's spot on with factory and RB turbos which is all its been used with so far.
    There has been a need. When I introduced stacking to this community I had Cobb+JB4 on the car. That's where the whole stacking business started on this platform in the first place. I remember asking you to adjust boost control so I could target low boost as well as high boost better with my RBs back then as the wastegates were super tight. What happened was you were busy, there were other priorities, and you said until more cars are running RBs BMS just had no time to spend on it back then. This is perfectly understandable and every business has their schedule and priorities. However, you have a great boost controller and all I'm saying is expose more of its configuration through say an Advanced Settings tab and let the end users tinker with boost control in a more fine grained approach. This is not an argument just throwing it out there as a suggestion as a great future feature. With a help guide of some sort this boost control configurability may in fact reduce your support emails and forum help requests as well.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On all the "custom mapping" being done I think it's a lot of Shiv style hype. But since you lock the maps no one will really ever see what exactly you changed for them for the $250... Click here to enlarge
    I can't help but notice you added this last comment 4 hours after your original post above for whatever reason, with no less than a smiley at the end. I don't think this comment is either fair or accurate. All of our maps are tweaked individually and customized fully to every car. There's no need to unlock a map to prove this to you or the customers. They know very well what the process is/was when working with each and every one of them in getting their cars calibrated to their needs. Every single map we ever provided is different in the end. The only thing that is the same is the OTS map the cars come to us with and that is where we start. Not going to explain the reasoning behind locked maps again as its already been discussed above. Just following suit what all other pro tuners do while charging about 50-75% less than them along with keeping our doors open to all of our customers at all times after the tuning has been done free of charge. Having said that, I've provided you with instructions in easily providing unlocked BMS Cobb maps to your customers. There's absolutely no need to wait for Cobb to do something on their end before you can do that. Hopefully for those that ask for an unlocked BMS Cobb map you'll provide them as such and still free of charge.

    Lastly, since you felt this late comment of yours was necessary...The reason I even posted in this thread was exactly because the BMS JB4 Flash is that type of BS hype. Shiv coined the Vishnu Flash and you followed suit with BMS JB4 Flash. At least in his case he's not saying he can flash his map anywhere and using any tool like you have above which was also incorrect.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 03-29-2013 at 10:12 AM.
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  5. #55
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    No reason to drag this out further but you don't understand how the fueling works with the JB4 and BMS flash in place. When you set boost targets to run 6psi on the flash end and actually run 20psi then certain things have to happen on the piggyback side to allow that to fuel properly, lol. It's part of the open loop and fuel trim scaling.

    On the NLS, the only issue I've seen is with cars not running our flash. Fuel trims can max out immediately post NLS. With the flash it's not an issue. AFR spikes because fuel is not being burnt during the NLS process.

    On the JB4 duty cycle tables, previous versions especially pre-ISO had a lower duty cycle limit. That is no longer present. We have zero interest in releasing some generic device users can run off with and fully self tune. That isn't our business model. The JB4 is a means to implement our tuning while also allowing sufficient customization to make it useful to at home tuners. If we make it too complicated for end users we'll have to start charging $250 per map... Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-29-2013 at 11:39 AM.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    No reason to drag this out further but you don't understand how the fueling works with the JB4 and BMS flash in place. When you set boost targets to run 6psi on the flash end and actually run 20psi then certain things have to happen on the piggyback side to allow that to fuel properly, lol. It's part of the open loop and fuel trim scaling.
    When you say I don't understand something I feel the need to explain that in fact I do very well. There is no fuel trim scaling on the JB4. There is fuel trim watching/monitoring. If they go high you raise fuel pressure. The only reason to do this is because you aren't telling the DME what the true load (MAF) is. In other words you're fixing something that otherwise wouldn't be there had you not stacked and flashed the car with lower than stock load targets.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On the NLS, the only issue I've seen is with cars not running our flash. Fuel trims can max out immediately post NLS. With the flash it's not an issue. AFR spikes because fuel is not being burnt during the NLS process.
    I wasn't talking about the AFR spike post shift with NLS. That's perfectly normal/expected as ignition is cut. You know what I was talking about as I've sent you logs back in the day showing it. Regardless, I suggest to all JB4 stackers to do some logging with NLS (fast shifts) and see what happens to their AFR post shift at times.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On the JB4 duty cycle tables, previous versions especially pre-ISO had a lower duty cycle limit. That is no longer present. We have zero interest in releasing some generic device users can run off with and fully self tune. That isn't our business model. The JB4 is a means to implement our tuning while also allowing sufficient customization to make it useful to at home tuners. If we make it too complicated for end users we'll have to start charging $250 per map... Click here to enlarge
    Oh please Click here to enlarge There'd be nothing taken away from the JB4 usability by adding a new tab for advanced settings to fine tune boost control while leaving the rest you have already in place. You've already got o2 bias and cps settings that are zeroed out in there that you could delete from the settings screen as they confuse stackers. You know, even with the settings you have in place which you may think are "user friendly" I don't know how many times I've been asked to help custom tune the JB4 for people. I do send them your way though...

    I keep mentioning this more and more in the past while. Most people just don't care about learning to adjust all this stuff. Vast majority just simply don't want to waste time gaining a skill they're not interested in gaining. Most want a fast car reliably tuned, set it and forget it, easy to install/uninstall. You're already charging 479 for something not at all required on top of Cobb and somehow getting away with it LOL
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 03-29-2013 at 12:28 PM.
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  7. #57
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    My question after reading all this is why can't the JB4 read other cyl than 1?
    If not, with the BMS flash and the Jb4, couldn't the Flash tell the JB4(electronic board) what timing the other 5 cyl are doing?

    When flash with the BMS flash + JB4 can you still log with the AP via OBDII and also log to the laptop via USB at the same time?

    If so, can't the flash spit out any information(parameters) it would give the AP to the JB4? Click here to enlarge
    335xi Sedan 6AT || Weather(45-60°F)
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    †Procede Map2(UT 45 - IGN 40) Aggression Target 2.0 (93 Octane) || 0-60 in 4.0sec
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  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AltecBX Click here to enlarge
    My question after reading all this is why can't the JB4 read other cyl than 1?
    All the flash tuning does is alter a few tables on the DME to better mesh with the JB4 tuning. For logging the data is all there with or without the flash but reading cyl2-6 via JB4 requires a different data reading structure than we currently use. It's just a project that we haven't tackled yet.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    You know, even with the settings you have in place which you may think are "user friendly" I don't know how many times I've been asked to help custom tune the JB4 for people. I do send them your way though...
    Most of the time people don't really know what they are asking for. They see the term "custom tune" and think that somehow will make their car faster. Most of this "custom tuning" is just canned prepared maps with a degree of advance added or taken away, and duty cycle changes made that shouldn't be needed anyway if the DME could properly adapt on its own. But as I said it's just my $.02 on it and as long as guys are willing to pay you $250 a pop for it more power to you. Click here to enlarge

    We have tens of thousands of customers running with the JB4 only approach and if not for E85 fueling requirements, and the occasional need to run higher than factory advance, the flash changes are fairly over-hyped in my opinion. The VANOS changes, etc, account for maybe a couple HP. But once you get larger turbos and need to redesign the fueling or boost DME observed torque for transmission purposes then along with that you "might as well" make the other various changes we do.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    All the flash tuning does is alter a few tables on the DME to better mesh with the JB4 tuning. For logging the data is all there with or without the flash but reading cyl2-6 via JB4 requires a different data reading structure than we currently use. It's just a project that we haven't tackled yet.

    This will defiantly gets people attention.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Most of the time people don't really know what they are asking for. They see the term "custom tune" and think that somehow will make their car faster. Most of this "custom tuning" is just canned prepared maps with a degree of advance added or taken away, and duty cycle changes made that shouldn't be needed anyway if the DME could properly adapt on its own. But as I said it's just my $.02 on it and as long as guys are willing to pay you $250 a pop for it more power to you. Click here to enlarge
    Why then isn't the N54 community posting up the changes with their mods. If we can have a database of what octane, mods, temp, etc the car is running, then we can can use ATR to do the proper changes. Obvious not every map will be the same in everyones vehicle, but we can all have a closer ending point then the OTS map. Together with this and a very well explained write up on how to make these changes and what changes will make a great addition to self tuning.
    335xi Sedan 6AT || Weather(45-60°F)
    -PROcede Rev. 2.5 ~ v5 (3/17 maps) / JB4 (8/21 maps) / COBB (Stg2+FMIC LT Agressive maps)
    †Procede Map2(UT 45 - IGN 40) Aggression Target 2.0 (93 Octane) || 0-60 in 4.0sec
    †Cobb E30 LT (35% Ethanol/65% 93 Octane) || 0-60 in 3.9sec
    AR Design Catless DP || BMS DCI + OCC || ETS 5 FMIC || Alpina B3 Trans Flash || 235/265 19" Michelin PSS

  11. #61
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    The LS1 community worked just like that. Tuners would just post up what tables/changes they made along with premade maps so others could piggyback (pun intended) off them. There was a big user database of maps. Might still be? Basically killed "pro" tuners but was good for the community.

    On the N54 the JB4 works very differently and offers a lot more than can be done with flash alone so I've never thought of flash tuning as something that will lower JB4 demand. It's almost the opposite in my opinion. People who would never consider a JB4 suddenly find themselves wanting to limit boost in 1st gear, or see boost in dash, achieve stable boost control, have the tune adjust for different E85 mixtures, add a 2step/nls, kill auto trans flatlining, integrate meth, etc, etc, etc.

    Maybe when I get some time I'll just work up some stronger flash only maps for those that want to go that way as a means to wet their appetite for adding the JB4 on top of them. Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-29-2013 at 02:41 PM.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Most of the time people don't really know what they are asking for. They see the term "custom tune" and think that somehow will make their car faster. Most of this "custom tuning" is just canned prepared maps with a degree of advance added or taken away, and duty cycle changes made that shouldn't be needed anyway if the DME could properly adapt on its own. But as I said it's just my $.02 on it and as long as guys are willing to pay you $250 a pop for it more power to you. Click here to enlarge
    You're pushing things quite far when the point of my post was to mention purposely misleading marketing of the so called BMS JB4 Flash which is evident from this OP's topic.

    In terms of our specific tunes being only seemingly faster this is another very low statement. Our cars always end up measurably faster. Our customers have taken multiple records in the past few months since we started offering this service on a 6 year old platform where you actively provided a solution for about 5.

    Again, the only canned map we use is the OTS map that we use as a base to see how/if the customer car is performing before we start anything. We use that as a baseline and take it from there. We strongly encourage all customers to hit the dyno and verify their gains and validate our work.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    We have tens of thousands of customers running with the JB4 only approach and if not for E85 fueling requirements, and the occasional need to run higher than factory advance, the flash changes are fairly over-hyped in my opinion. The VANOS changes, etc, account for maybe a couple HP. But once you get larger turbos and need to redesign the fueling or boost DME observed torque for transmission purposes then along with that you "might as well" make the other various changes we do.
    The DME is always adapting load and timing. You can be thankful to BMW for making such an amazing DME for saving all the poor ACN91 octane customers' N54s running JB tunes timing correcting heavily even on map1. Not to even mention the JB+. You mention that you may be providing some canned maps down the road. That's a great idea. However, you said and still say that your map1 and map2 are very capable and efficient tunes for pump gas. What purpose would these maps serve? In addition to that, in many cases there's simply minimal to no power to be gained depending on octane quality over what the OTS already provides. This is especially the case with ACN91.

    I can do a little experiment on the dyno for you next time. I'll dyno map1 on 91 octane, do 5 pulls back to back and then load the OTS Drive map (ACN91 octane) and do 5 pulls back to back and gather logs and numbers. Timing on JB4 alone is way to aggressive for pump gas. How many of your thousands of customers are in California using that horrible octane running map1. Even the stock tune timing corrects heavily let alone 12.5-13psi on the same octane.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AltecBX Click here to enlarge
    Why then isn't the N54 community posting up the changes with their mods. If we can have a database of what octane, mods, temp, etc the car is running, then we can can use ATR to do the proper changes. Obvious not every map will be the same in everyones vehicle, but we can all have a closer ending point then the OTS map. Together with this and a very well explained write up on how to make these changes and what changes will make a great addition to self tuning.
    I've always been a strong supporter of sharing knowledge and much of this has already been shared and continues to be shared. Cobb's Help guide is there to explain most of it and what remains is just seat time in the car to try things. This and the other forum have had some really nice threads written up on how to do things like boost control (e.g. @rader1 , @cstavaru , we have some stuff on our blog too).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The LS1 community worked just like that. Tuners would just post up what tables/changes they made along with premade maps so others could piggyback (pun intended) off them. There was a big user database of maps. Might still be? Basically killed "pro" tuners but was good for the community.
    What're you talking about "killed" pro tuners LOL that is pretty laughable to be honest. People who pick up a skill don't kill someone else. They can just do it themselves at that point. Not everyone out there lives and breathes forums like we seem to do here. If I learn to install my charge pipe or clutch does that kill my mechanic? Click here to enlarge That was pretty funny! We don't make a living off this stuff, just look at our pricing. Average rate for a custom tune is 500-650 and it can go up to 800 I've heard. Forum members get a discount even on top of our already low price. Key thing is there is always a choice as with anything. Either learn it yourself and DIY or let someone else who knows what they're doing get it done for you.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On the N54 the JB4 works very differently and offers a lot more than can be done with flash alone so I've never thought of flash tuning as something that will lower JB4 demand. It's almost the opposite in my opinion. People who would never consider a JB4 suddenly find themselves wanting to limit boost in 1st gear, or see boost in dash, achieve stable boost control, have the tune adjust for different E85 mixtures, add a 2step/nls, kill auto trans flatlining, integrate meth, etc, etc, etc.
    Those are all great gadgets to have when they work. E85 support on JB4 alone is simply non-existent unless monitoring fuel trims and raising fuel pressure is what you consider E85 support. NLS had issues on a couple cars in the last few months with the latest JB4. I'll try to grab logs off this local car and send them to you. Since most of your time was spent running the JB4 on a 6AT car I'm not surprised bogging and NLS still aren't 100%. Maybe they'll never be...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Maybe when I get some time I'll just work up some stronger flash only maps for those that want to go that way as a means to wet their appetite for adding the JB4 on top of them. Click here to enlarge
    All the power to you! Click here to enlarge I suggest you definitely do that at least for the poor ACN91 JB customers. Their motors could certainly take a break from that map1. Honestly, given we've seen Shiv demonstrate logging timing across all 6 cylinders, I get a feeling sometimes you simply don't have any interest in adding those to the JB4 any time soon even if you had the ability to do it. It could clearly demonstrate what map1, map2, map5 and map7 were doing. It would make for a number of support emails I bet.

    We're very far away from this OP's topic. The point of my post was to simply express my opinion on the misleading BMS JB4 Flash nomenclature and the way its being portrayed through marketing. I'll leave it at that.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 03-29-2013 at 05:46 PM.
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  13. #63
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    It seems like for every word I type in to this thread I have to reply to 20. Turning in to a time waste. But a couple comments.

    re: maps I'm not saying you are a "pro tuner" nor that your "business" will be "killed" by more users start sharing their maps. But things should/will move in that direction on the flash side. There simply is not a lot of custom tuning that needs to be done on these cars for a given setup. Fueling is closed loop, timing is closed loop, boost even within the DME is partly adaptive. VANOS, boost curves, AFR curves, fuel scalars, etc are mostly canned. If anything its the boost and base timing map that needs work for a given setup and that really isn't that much work. This is nothing users can't sort out on their own if they knew more about it.

    On our 91 octane I grew up here and have been racing on this crap fuel my entire life. Have tuned maybe 500 local customers here over the years on it. I've never heard of anyone damaging anything on map 1 or 5 on 91. The fuel sucks but map 1 and 5 normally work pretty well with it. The problem is 91 octane fuel is not consistent and sometimes acts more like 89-90, others more like 91-92. With the G5 we have more options now than we did with the G4 in terms of dealing with 89-91 octane like running a heavy CPS offset. Once the BMS flash is also added we have a couple more little tweaks we can do with VANOS, etc, to help out. But I don't agree with your philosophy of running lots of boost with no advance without EGT monitoring. That is how you melt stuff.

    re NLS we own a manual N54 and I put a few hundred miles on it last week. Every shift I did was NLS and it worked great. If you have someone with an issue point them in our direction and we'll help get them sort it out.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    You dont want to repeat yourself yet you do and go further to try put down our honest work every post you make. I'll make it easier for you and not respond to nonsense again. Its very interesting how desperate and twisted your comments can go when someone simply speaks facts. We have no philosophy to tuning. We simply go off data and end results. Cheers
    Click here to enlarge

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    Hello DZ,

    After reading some of this back and forth with Terry, thought I'd say a couple words

    First much of what you are stating as facts (in many threads) are incorrect. You are very wordy these days sounding like a "n54 know it all". You know some things, learned since 2008, but think you know much more than the reality. Before 2008 your engine, car knowledge was practically zero and still shows in some fairly recent discussions pre and post PTF.

    Some examples:
    - N54 injectors sense cylinder pressure... Wrong, but you held to this believe for awhile despite peeps with more knowledge explaining differently.
    - E85 benefits are due to the slower burn rate... Wrong, there's really no benefit in a slower burn rate.
    - not understanding lambda, thinking you have to adjust AFR based on fuel... this one's kinda funny.
    - timing corrections happen before there's actual detonation... Not possible.
    - not understanding why BSFC can be lower with higher flowing turbos
    - why gearing doesn't matter in calculating HP on the dyno
    I had a long round on the golf course which gave me time to remember some of the past. These are just some examples showing your newbiness in tuning and engines in general. Just because you have experience with each tune, doesn't mean you understand how they work.

    The reason you can offer tuning services with ATP, is due to the simplicity of the n54 DME. Put you on another platform, and you will be completely lost. You are arguing with Terry who knows much more than you in general and about the n54 specifically.

    How does PTF tune:
    1. They have "race code" which basically offers a more linear relationship between load and req boost. (Does every ATP have race code?)
    2. They set WOT load points higher than what can be reached, reducing DME unwanted reactions.
    3. WGDC is then limited by PID authority.
    Boost control is really the only thing that's being "tuned", and primarily only at WOT... thus my curiosity in part throttle. Timing sure, but you just set it high and let the DME correct. Due to experience you do have some knowledge of funky named and effects of some tables. But this isn't tuning. You claim VANOS, but not a concern until turbos change. Cobb gives you inhouse results, theories that help your understanding and direction in testing. This would be better used if communicated publicly.

    PTF is hot these days, and I can see why with the forum promotion and they do work hard for their customers, but you aren't the knowledgable tuner someone may think after reading these "fact" filled posts.

    Now if you were just offering tuning services, as a humble enthusiast still learning, that's great. But you sound like THE n54 tuner... this is not the case.

    As always, I'm here to help.
    Last edited by JoshBoody; 03-29-2013 at 09:24 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    You dont want to repeat yourself yet you do and go further to try put down our honest work every post you make. I'll make it easier for you and not respond to nonsense again. Its very interesting how desperate and twisted your comments can go when someone simply speaks facts. We have no philosophy to tuning. We simply go off data and end results. Cheers
    I'll have to reread my posts but I don't recall sending any insults your way or putting down your work. You provide a service that customers are willing to pay a certain price for. That is undeniable and my opinion on the value of that service isn't anything other than my opinion.

    You've stated quite a few "facts" that are incorrect so I tried to get you on the right path on those topics. But at the end of the day this is just a friendly conversation on the forums so please don't take it as anything more than that.

    On your tuning philosophy, data, and results, I'm surprised you are saying you don't have a tuning philosophy. Maybe you just have not done enough of the cars yet. Having tuned several thousand with good results I've certainly developed a general philosophy on how I like to run them. Less boost, heavier advance, leaner AFR down low, richer up top, etc. Our basic 93 octane downpipe map 2 runs 12psi down low for example. Compared to Cobb's 93 downpipe map that runs up to 18psi. Only we run it leaner with a lot more advance which I prefer for various reasons. No doubt Cobb prefers their way. So there is a philosophical difference there. Just like you and I probably don't see eye to eye on how certain things should be done with regard to boost control, meth, etc.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  17. #67
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Hello DZ,

    After reading some of this back and forth with Terry, thought I'd say a couple words

    First much of what you are stating as facts (in many threads) are incorrect. You are very wordy these days sounding like a "n54 know it all". You know some things, learned since 2008, but think you know much more than the reality. Before 2008 your engine, car knowledge was practically zero and still shows in some fairly recent discussions pre and post PTF.

    Some examples:
    - N54 injectors sense cylinder pressure... Wrong, but you held to this believe for awhile despite peeps with more knowledge explaining differently.
    - E85 benefits are due to the slower burn rate... Wrong, there's really no benefit in a slower burn rate.
    - not understanding lambda, thinking you have to adjust AFR based on fuel... this one's kinda funny.
    - timing corrections happen before there's actual detonation... Not possible.
    - not understanding why BSFC can be lower with higher flowing turbos
    - why gearing doesn't matter in calculating HP on the dyno
    I had a long round on the golf course which gave me time to remember some of the past. These are just some examples showing your newbiness in tuning and engines in general. Just because you have experience with each tune, doesn't mean you understand how they work.
    Do you feel better now that you got that out of your system? You spent a day at the golf course thinking about what you could post here about me to put me down? I am really not sure if I should respond at all.

    I certainly wasn't born into a family of tuners nor do I have some magical tuning DNA in my blood. It is no secret at all that my tuning knowledge centers around the N54. 5 years on a daily basis with something someone enjoys as much as I do, constant tinkering, inevitably provides you with what people refer to as experience. I am not pretending nor am I a know it all. That comment almost sounded like you were jealous of something? Weird.

    Many of the examples you've posted are thrown completely out of context of what was discussed and some are just entirely made up.

    1) N54 injectors sense cylinder pressure - This information was brought to this forum from another forum member in Europe that brought us some interesting details on the N54 fuel system design from the N54 fuel system engineer. Among other things piezo crystals in the DI injectors were discussed as possibly being involved in knock detection. I took that as a possibility at the time, about a year or two ago. The problem is knock detection wasn't documented in any level of detail in the official BMW literature that we have access to today. Having said all that, I've never said that the N54 injectors were indeed involved in knock detection. Back then when that was posted it was simply a friendly forum discussion/thread. But I guess you took notes!

    2) E85 slower burn rate - Makes no sense. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline. How could a slower burn be a benefit. Take a look at this great thread on NASIOC. It'll explain a couple things on E85 in case you were wondering:

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...91&postcount=1

    Its a bit old (2005) and isn't related to direct injection but many concepts still apply.

    3) Not understanding Lambda, thinking you have to adjust AFR based on fuel - No idea what you mean by that or what you found so funny there. AFR (Air/Fuel Ratio) is simply mass(air) divided by mass(fuel). Lambda (or Air-Fuel equivalence ratio) is the ratio of actual AFR to stoichiometry for a given mixture. Lambda = 1.0 is at stoichiometry, rich mixtures Lambda < 1.0, and lean mixtures Lambda > 1.0. All very simply concepts very easy to understand. Somehow you found something funny there, I guess good for you.

    4) Timing corrections happen before actual detonation happens - Again, no idea what you meant by this. If this was in relation to point 1 above then ok, maybe that was in the context of discussing ion sensing or piezo crystals in the injectors which was in the context of that discussion. Otherwise, makes no sense.

    5) In terms of BSFC formula and calculations - You sure got me there. BSFC is basically rate of fuel consumption for given power produced by an engine. How does this relate to me reading a datalog and adjusting boost to follow target and timing for MBT, fuel, VANOS, throttle mapping (which is what we do as tuners)? I don't provide lab work on motors. I simply calibrate N54s and try my best to make them run happy well performing tunes. In other words, not too hard especially if you spent time to gain experience I had.

    6) Why gearing doesn't matter in calculating HP on the dyno - Of course gearing matters and especially so on a drum rotating inertia based dyno (i.e. Dynojet). Why do you think everyone should dyno in a 1:1 gear there? This especially matters to 6MTs as most people on the N54 platform dyno in 4th gear which actually isn't 1:1. 5th is a 1:1 on a 6MT. Do we really need to debate this again?

    Now, having said all that, when I showed the N54 community a stacked COBB/JB approach you were the first one to put down my posts and speak ever so factually saying piggies on their own can fuel this car just as well as a flashed DME! Two problems there: 1) You tried very hard to make it a FACT based on NO data of your own 2) It was simply wrong and you never admitted to it to this day. How about that?

    Hopefully that clarifies some of the confusion on your end about my comments and helps you realize that Pro Tuners are not rocket scientists or brain surgeons. We simply have experience with some platforms more than others and enjoy making power. Naturally, some have more experience than others and that's why people come to us for N54 tuning. We have that experience. Sure I can tune another platform. Concepts are the same. Should I or would I? Maybe one day but our focus is BMWs and as long as we're enjoying it and having fun with it we'll keep at it and keep getting better and sharper. Such have been the last 5 years and I certainly hope nothing less in the next 5.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    The reason you can offer tuning services with ATP, is due to the simplicity of the n54 DME. Put you on another platform, and you will be completely lost. You are arguing with Terry who knows much more than you in general and about the n54 specifically.
    I don't get you or Terry on this one as you switch context all the time on it. One day Cobb's ATR is too complicated, practically unusable. Another day its SIMPLICITY of the N54 DME Click here to enlarge Put me on what platform? What makes you think I'd even enjoy tuning other platforms? In fact I've helped tune a couple different platforms in the last while. Guess what, its all the same! Just a different tool you end up using. MIRACLE!

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    How does PTF tune:
    1. They have "race code" which basically offers a more linear relationship between load and req boost. (Does every ATP have race code?)
    2. They set WOT load points higher than what can be reached, reducing DME unwanted reactions.
    3. WGDC is then limited by PID authority.
    Boost control is really the only thing that's being "tuned", and primarily only at WOT... thus my curiosity in part throttle. Timing sure, but you just set it high and let the DME correct. Due to experience you do have some knowledge of funky named and effects of some tables. But this isn't tuning. You claim VANOS, but not a concern until turbos change. Cobb gives you inhouse results, theories that help your understanding and direction in testing. This would be better used if communicated publicly.
    Here's a clear example of you talking about something you have no idea about, namely race code. Race code has nothing to do with linearizing the relationship between between load and req boost. That is what you can end up with as an end result due to changed values in the ROMs that previously capped tuning to lower values given the tables exposed.

    In terms of WOT load points. Again, lack of experience there. Load table is not a load target. It is more a load "LIMIT". If you get actual load too close to what is currently called Load Target you'll get unwanted behaviour and drivability issues. You actually want the Load Target table values higher than your actual at all times. There's a little tuning with ATP 101 for you Click here to enlarge

    In terms of WGDC. There are many avenues you can take with WGDC tables. Some of them work better than others. It'll also highly depend on what you do with VANOS in terms of valve overlap. Given you've simplified it to this level I now realize you don't have half the experience tuning boost control with ATR that you think you do.

    In terms of Timing we tune for MBT always. Being that you run a procede that allows you to see only cylinder 1's timing how would you really know what the DME is correcting on your OWN car, let alone if you tuned someone else with that strategy Click here to enlarge Give it a break, we are certainly not doing what you're suggesting here. Makes no sense and if in doubt talk to some of our customers on these forums. Oh wait, you already have talked to a number of them asking them for our logs to see what we're doing. You also went out of your way to tell Vargas we can't tune his Stage 3 before we showed you preliminary results Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    PTF is hot these days, and I can see why with the forum promotion and they do work hard for their customers, but you aren't the knowledgable tuner someone may think after reading these "fact" filled posts.
    Now if you were just offering tuning services, as a humble enthusiast still learning, that's great. But you sound like THE n54 tuner... this is not the case.

    As always, I'm here to help.[/QUOTE]

    I will always be a humble enthusiast. In this thread I was merely pointing out something I felt was worth pointing out as misleading. I am not THE n54 tuner. There are many that do great work including Shiv and Terry. I never said they were bad tuners. All I have issues with from time to time is unnecessary bs marketing which in the first place was the reason for my post in this thread. If/when I make a post that makes no sense I have no problem saying that I made a mistake. I've done it plenty times before especially when facts based off data or documentation haven't been gathered yet.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I'll have to reread my posts but I don't recall sending any insults your way or putting down your work. You provide a service that customers are willing to pay a certain price for. That is undeniable and my opinion on the value of that service isn't anything other than my opinion.
    Things don't get across the same when written on an internet board as they would if we spoke in person. I don't expect you to either praise or put me down as I don't do anything of that sort to you. I've always expressed respect working with you, nothing less. In this thread I've posted because of my opinion being the BMS JB4 Flash was misleading that's all. Not that Terry was a bad guy, sucky tuner, doesn't know what he's doing, that Joshboody would go golfing and spend the day thinking about what to post about me here Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You've stated quite a few "facts" that are incorrect so I tried to get you on the right path on those topics. But at the end of the day this is just a friendly conversation on the forums so please don't take it as anything more than that.
    I'm not sure what facts you're referring to that were incorrect. We've been around the N54 so long and its really hard to be wrong on something factual these days. I never insult unless insulted and I never intend my posts to be unfriendly. Simply trying to stick to data and results which are always the closest to the truth that's all.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On your tuning philosophy, data, and results, I'm surprised you are saying you don't have a tuning philosophy. Maybe you just have not done enough of the cars yet. Having tuned several thousand with good results I've certainly developed a general philosophy on how I like to run them. Less boost, heavier advance, leaner AFR down low, richer up top, etc. Our basic 93 octane downpipe map 2 runs 12psi down low for example. Compared to Cobb's 93 downpipe map that runs up to 18psi. Only we run it leaner with a lot more advance which I prefer for various reasons. No doubt Cobb prefers their way. So there is a philosophical difference there. Just like you and I probably don't see eye to eye on how certain things should be done with regard to boost control, meth, etc.
    I don't have a tuning "philosophy". There are simply approaches that have been found to work well over time throughout our testing. OTS maps outline simply an approach to tuning (i.e. maximizing turbo output for their efficiency and tuning for timing at MBT for a given fuel). This provides great low end torque and through VANOS it also makes for good peak hp. We follow that approach for street tuned N54s as they're fun to drive on the street that way. On the road course it'd be a different story as its mostly about dealing with prolonged heat production there and trying to work around it. On the road course the key is finishing the race, not all out power/torque production. I guess you could call these philosophies but I just look at them as approaches we found to work well.

    LONGEST POST IN HISTORY! Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    I'm glad you responded... I'll need to get to my computer to post a PTF log for discussion purposes. In the mean time maybe you can post a part throttle log... I'm sure anyone familiar with ATR would love to see it... you can cherry pick, no worries.

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    What's the difference in part throttle between JB4, Procede, GIAC, Cobb or PTF?
    What are we looking for
    335xi Sedan 6AT || Weather(45-60°F)
    -PROcede Rev. 2.5 ~ v5 (3/17 maps) / JB4 (8/21 maps) / COBB (Stg2+FMIC LT Agressive maps)
    †Procede Map2(UT 45 - IGN 40) Aggression Target 2.0 (93 Octane) || 0-60 in 4.0sec
    †Cobb E30 LT (35% Ethanol/65% 93 Octane) || 0-60 in 3.9sec
    AR Design Catless DP || BMS DCI + OCC || ETS 5 FMIC || Alpina B3 Trans Flash || 235/265 19" Michelin PSS

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I'm glad you responded... I'll need to get to my computer to post a PTF log for discussion purposes. In the mean time maybe you can post a part throttle log... I'm sure anyone familiar with ATR would love to see it... you can cherry pick, no worries.
    i'm sure you picked a great cherry to discuss..when you do post it let me know what customer car it was as well as i'd like to know why this mattered to you more than them LOL
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    i'm sure you picked a great cherry to discuss..when you do post it let me know what customer car it was as well as i'd like to know why this mattered to you more than them LOL
    There's nothing wrong with the log... Looks great. Just has to do with boost setpoints comparing ATR to race code or ATP.

    guess we can't expect you to post any part throttle logs... which you should have plenty, being a tuner.

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    So after all the bs you decided to post you still want to talk and discuss things with me and expect me to give you data? Honestly do yourself a favor and stop being childish.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Not really for me... I'm pretty sure of what would be posted, although I am a little curious. For others that are interested in the different approaches in tuning for the n54.

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    This platform is really quite different than most of what has been before. From closed loop everything, to DI and the way the DME calculates things, it's much more advanced than your typical SBC, LS1, 4G63, 2JZ, etc. Anybody that gets into the tuning scene here has a lot to come to terms with. I "understood" lambda targeting before I got this car, but due to open loop fueling on every other car I've ever owned it meant something entirely different when it came to E85. Some tuners here are at least more open minded than others who would lead you to believe you need a fancy sensor for flexfuel, but a lot of that has to due with the differences of this platform over others.

    Where we come from makes little difference in the end. I can train somebody in microsurgery in a couple months time pretty darn good if they have the basic skill set and are intelligent and driven. Dzenno is probably one of the better tuners on the N54 scene, probably the best for the DME only tunes. I only wish he was a computer science/programmer guy so he could help hack it apart a bit more since Cobb seems to have other priorities. Because he doesn't understand the intricacies of a piggyback isn't really a fault since he didn't design/code it himself. His job is to understand the DME and tune cars with whatever approach he believes in, based on whatever evidence he has. As he learns, I'm sure his methodologies to tuning will change. Or else he will be replaced, that's how it works. Same goes for Terry.

    I'm not really sure what all this fighting is about. Terry can call it a "BMS flash" if he wants, because that's what it is. Should he call it a "JB4 support flash" or "JB4 backend flash" instead of "BMS flash"? Maybe. Maybe Fruity Pebbles should call their cereal sweetened rice flakes, because customers may think they are actually buying rocks. Shiv has a flash and they have to stay competitive so using a similar name makes it easier to directly compare (read- Fruity Nuggets, not saying BMS is the generic LOL). I don't think all that many people are confused by the name really.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Where we come from makes little difference in the end. I can train somebody in microsurgery in a couple months time pretty darn good if they have the basic skill set and are intelligent and driven. Dzenno is probably one of the better tuners on the N54 scene, probably the best for the DME only tunes. I only wish he was a computer science/programmer guy so he could help hack it apart a bit more since Cobb seems to have other priorities. Because he doesn't understand the intricacies of a piggyback isn't really a fault since he didn't design/code it himself. His job is to understand the DME and tune cars with whatever approach he believes in, based on whatever evidence he has. As he learns, I'm sure his methodologies to tuning will change. Or else he will be replaced, that's how it works. Same goes for Terry.
    +100
    335xi Sedan 6AT || Weather(45-60°F)
    -PROcede Rev. 2.5 ~ v5 (3/17 maps) / JB4 (8/21 maps) / COBB (Stg2+FMIC LT Agressive maps)
    †Procede Map2(UT 45 - IGN 40) Aggression Target 2.0 (93 Octane) || 0-60 in 4.0sec
    †Cobb E30 LT (35% Ethanol/65% 93 Octane) || 0-60 in 3.9sec
    AR Design Catless DP || BMS DCI + OCC || ETS 5 FMIC || Alpina B3 Trans Flash || 235/265 19" Michelin PSS

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