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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AltecBX Click here to enlarge
    Why then isn't the N54 community posting up the changes with their mods. If we can have a database of what octane, mods, temp, etc the car is running, then we can can use ATR to do the proper changes. Obvious not every map will be the same in everyones vehicle, but we can all have a closer ending point then the OTS map. Together with this and a very well explained write up on how to make these changes and what changes will make a great addition to self tuning.
    We have the ATR discussion sticky at the top of the page and that is a very good resource to use to get started. IMHO there are a couple reasons why the ATR discussions aren't that prevalent. The N54 is speed density and 100% closed loop fueling so that takes out A LOT of the work out of it. On top of that, there is only so much that can be done with stock turbos. Honestly, for an aggressive street you're pretty much looking at ~18.5psi tapering off to ~15psi(tweaking the WGDC tables when and where required) and then run as much timing advance as you can before you hit timing corrections or MBT(on pump gas or pump gas and meth you'll probably hit timing corrections first.) VANOS tables are a little trickier without a dyno because my but dyno isn't exactly calibrated equipment. AFRs haven't really shown to make big power changes either way so running ~12.2 across the board has been working well for almost any tuning scheme I've played with.Of course, there are ways to go about it differently for different purposes like road course or "smoothness over power" but the overall process is similar. The only way to learn it is to do it. Nothing teaches you faster than seat time, I've had a few "aha" moments along the way and it's been a fun process to learn.
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    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  2. #77
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    We have the ATR discussion sticky at the top of the page and that is a very good resource to use to get started. IMHO there are a couple reasons why the ATR discussions aren't that prevalent. The N54 is speed density and 100% closed loop fueling so that takes out A LOT of the work out of it. On top of that, there is only so much that can be done with stock turbos. Honestly, for an aggressive street you're pretty much looking at ~18.5psi tapering off to ~15psi(tweaking the WGDC tables when and where required) and then run as much timing advance as you can before you hit timing corrections or MBT(on pump gas or pump gas and meth you'll probably hit timing corrections first.) VANOS tables are a little trickier without a dyno because my but dyno isn't exactly calibrated equipment. AFRs haven't really shown to make big power changes either way so running ~12.2 across the board has been working well for almost any tuning scheme I've played with.Of course, there are ways to go about it differently for different purposes like road course or "smoothness over power" but the overall process is similar. The only way to learn it is to do it. Nothing teaches you faster than seat time, I've had a few "aha" moments along the way and it's been a fun process to learn.
    Thanks for the advice. I'll be learning as time goes by and I hope others will do the same to share their experience.
    I mean, we don't spend time in these forums for nothing. I sure spend my time here to learn and give back whatever i can.
    335xi Sedan 6AT || Weather(45-60°F)
    -PROcede Rev. 2.5 ~ v5 (3/17 maps) / JB4 (8/21 maps) / COBB (Stg2+FMIC LT Agressive maps)
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    †Cobb E30 LT (35% Ethanol/65% 93 Octane) || 0-60 in 3.9sec
    AR Design Catless DP || BMS DCI + OCC || ETS 5 FMIC || Alpina B3 Trans Flash || 235/265 19" Michelin PSS

  3. #78
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    Some replies below:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    2) E85 slower burn rate - Makes no sense. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline. How could a slower burn be a benefit. Take a look at this great thread on NASIOC. It'll explain a couple things on E85 in case you were wondering:
    Didn’t read your link, but you may want to find better sources then other forums. E85 does burn slower than gasoline.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    3) Not understanding Lambda, thinking you have to adjust AFR based on fuel - No idea what you mean by that or what you found so funny there. AFR (Air/Fuel Ratio) is simply mass(air) divided by mass(fuel). Lambda (or Air-Fuel equivalence ratio) is the ratio of actual AFR to stoichiometry for a given mixture. Lambda = 1.0 is at stoichiometry, rich mixtures Lambda < 1.0, and lean mixtures Lambda > 1.0. All very simply concepts very easy to understand. Somehow you found something funny there, I guess good for you.
    Thanks for the tech, which you learned not too long ago… that was my point… on the n54 forums you learned the relationship between lambda and AFR. Everyone has to start somewhere.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    4) Timing corrections happen before actual detonation happens - Again, no idea what you meant by this. If this was in relation to point 1 above then ok, maybe that was in the context of discussing ion sensing or piezo crystals in the injectors which was in the context of that discussion. Otherwise, makes no sense.
    You had been one of the believers in pre-detonation detection. Maybe now your thoughts have changed.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    6) Why gearing doesn't matter in calculating HP on the dyno - Of course gearing matters and especially so on a drum rotating inertia based dyno (i.e. Dynojet). Why do you think everyone should dyno in a 1:1 gear there? This especially matters to 6MTs as most people on the N54 platform dyno in 4th gear which actually isn't 1:1. 5th is a 1:1 on a 6MT. Do we really need to debate this again?
    Gearing doesn’t matter in “calculating” HP. Gearing will effect load and drivetrain loss… load has the larger effect of the 2.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Now, having said all that, when I showed the N54 community a stacked COBB/JB approach you were the first one to put down my posts and speak ever so factually saying piggies on their own can fuel this car just as well as a flashed DME! Two problems there: 1) You tried very hard to make it a FACT based on NO data of your own 2) It was simply wrong and you never admitted to it to this day. How about that?
    Nope, never put down stacking… have always liked the idea. What I may have put down is some of your claims about fuel control, which when set up properly works well on the piggy side, but obviously has limits.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Here's a clear example of you talking about something you have no idea about, namely race code. Race code has nothing to do with linearizing the relationship between between load and req boost. That is what you can end up with as an end result due to changed values in the ROMs that previously capped tuning to lower values given the tables exposed.

    In terms of WOT load points. Again, lack of experience there. Load table is not a load target. It is more a load "LIMIT". If you get actual load too close to what is currently called Load Target you'll get unwanted behaviour and drivability issues. You actually want the Load Target table values higher than your actual at all times. There's a little tuning with ATP 101 for you
    What race code offers is no boost curve limits and this effectively creates a more linear relationship between req load and boost. Below is a log Rader posted recently in another thread and the PTF log with “race code”. Notice req boost tapering in Rader’s log and no taper in the PTF log. Of course this is a great advantage for race code (or potentially any ATP).

    Ok load limit… I’ll give you that, but its also how the DME targets load setpoint. Req boost is kept below the load limit and this difference increases with load value. Anyway, at part throttle actual loads are much closer to the load “limit” and thus my request to see part throttle logs. Thanks for the ATP 101… as I stated in my original post, you accomplish this by limited WGDC… good idea for WOT, but doesn’t work at part throttle.

    Also you can notice in the PTF log that req load is tapering but req boost is not... how do you think this effects throttle control?
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  4. #79
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    Keep testing, you'll figure it out one day Click here to enlarge
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  5. #80
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I found this 3 page article, informative without going into too much science. Pretty good laymans terms in there, plus lots of numbers, including burn rates.

  6. #81
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I found this 3 page article, informative without going into too much science. Pretty good laymans terms in there, plus lots of numbers, including burn rates.
    Sweet data. I've never seen the burn rate quantified like that. I do wonder why they estimate the Sunoco GT260+ gasoline has a faster burn rate than pump gas? I had always assumed it had to burn slower. If that is correct you learn something new every day. Click here to enlarge

    If you guys look at that chart you might figure out part of the reason I've been injecting E98 instead of methanol with the "meth" kit. Click here to enlarge
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  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Some replies below:

    Didn’t read your link, but you may want to find better sources then other forums. E85 does burn slower than gasoline.
    I always though E85 or any higher concentration of ethanol burns faster than gasoline with less ethanol; Just like lower grade fuel. For instance, if you fill up in a 93 oct from shell/sunoco gas station you'll get better fuel mileage than 93 oct from a cheapo gas station due to higher concentration of octane.

    Their has been petition about increasing ethanol in our pump gas. The reason the gov't want's to increase ethanol from 10% to 15% is because ethanol is subsidize. They subsidize the corn and oil company's make more money due to a higher use of oil, since gasoline is being mixed with a higher concentration of ethanol.

    Ethanol will always produce more power than gasoline due to a higher octane but will burn faster. I believe it burns 33% faster than gasoline. Although to your defense the fact that ethanol burns faster than regular gasoline has no bearing on fuel economy rather it is more related to spark timing. The ECU will need to retard the ignition timing when switching from regular to a more concentration ethanol blend.
    335xi Sedan 6AT || Weather(45-60°F)
    -PROcede Rev. 2.5 ~ v5 (3/17 maps) / JB4 (8/21 maps) / COBB (Stg2+FMIC LT Agressive maps)
    †Procede Map2(UT 45 - IGN 40) Aggression Target 2.0 (93 Octane) || 0-60 in 4.0sec
    †Cobb E30 LT (35% Ethanol/65% 93 Octane) || 0-60 in 3.9sec
    AR Design Catless DP || BMS DCI + OCC || ETS 5 FMIC || Alpina B3 Trans Flash || 235/265 19" Michelin PSS

  8. #83
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I found this 3 page article, informative without going into too much science. Pretty good laymans terms in there, plus lots of numbers, including burn rates.
    Great data.
    The numbers from Burning rate to boiling point varies from test to test. Although I've seen those numbers higher for pure ethanol and E85, they are reasonably close.
    335xi Sedan 6AT || Weather(45-60°F)
    -PROcede Rev. 2.5 ~ v5 (3/17 maps) / JB4 (8/21 maps) / COBB (Stg2+FMIC LT Agressive maps)
    †Procede Map2(UT 45 - IGN 40) Aggression Target 2.0 (93 Octane) || 0-60 in 4.0sec
    †Cobb E30 LT (35% Ethanol/65% 93 Octane) || 0-60 in 3.9sec
    AR Design Catless DP || BMS DCI + OCC || ETS 5 FMIC || Alpina B3 Trans Flash || 235/265 19" Michelin PSS

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