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Thread: Failure at Track - Can no longer go WOT

              
   
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
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    Terry, when you ran setup #5 (Walbro no Venturi), did you leave the Venturi in place, physically blocking the hole in the bottom of the bucket, or did you remove the Venturi completely from the bucket (including the red rubber diaphram, allowing fuel to enter through the bottom of the bucket?

    Thanks
    Terry can you answer the bold portion above?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
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    Could you post some pics of your setup? It would be easier to follow and see what's going on.
    I'm running the same setup as Terry's DIY:
    walbro, with T on outlet going from pump outlet to Venturi.

    I want to know if he physically left to Venturi in the bucket when he ran without it in option 5.
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    I just removed the venturi all together but left the flapper valve in. So fuel could slosh up in to the bucket but not back out. But anything you do should be methodical and based on data IMHO.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-26-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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    Update -

    I removed the venturi, leaving the flapper valve in place just as a test. Fuel trims still maxed (indicating DME cannot hit AFR targets with current OL setting and 34% fuel trimming).

    I increased global OL fueling from 90% to 100%, with the same result. I then added even more OL using the OL fueling tables (+8-10 pts in load cells) and was able to get the trims to stay in the mid 20's with stable AFR.

    SO, I'm having to add a considerable amount of fuel correction through OL now than before (10% globally, and 10 points via map which is a lot). I'm essentially at max fuel system capacity, when previously I had much more fuel headroom. This only happened following that last pass at the track when the venturi came off. This is even the very same tank of fuel and the weather is comparable.

    Ideas on what could be causing this lack of fuel? I can't log LPFP directly, but my HPFP chart seems in line.


    Cliffs:
    • Following track pass, car died and has severe trouble starting (tried 4-5 times with breaks in between)
    • Car finally started after many tries
    • Inspected LPFP and venturi feed hose came off
    • Re-attached venturi, but fuel trims are maxed (pegged 34%)
    • Removed venturi all together, fueling trims remain the same
    • Added considerable amount of OL fueling, trims and AFR are controllalble, but fueling is essentially near maxed-out
    • Same tank of fuel is being used


    Thoughts?
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    • Are you sure there are no kinks or restrictions in the fuel line feeding the LPFP?
    • Have you considered an electrical problem (the pump is underperforming b/c a lack of electrical current)?
    • Are you sure the Walbro pump is even working (properly hooked up the wiring/harness)?
    • Log your car at idle & see where the trims stand (ex: if at idle your STFT is at like 25%, there's clearly a flow-related problem)?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    • Are you sure there are no kinks or restrictions in the fuel line feeding the LPFP?
    • Have you considered an electrical problem (the pump is underperforming b/c a lack of electrical current)?
    • Are you sure the Walbro pump is even working (properly hooked up the wiring/harness)?
    • Log your car at idle & see where the trims stand (ex: if at idle your STFT is at like 25%, there's clearly a flow-related problem)?
    • I'm pretty sure. I've take it out plenty of times previously, and in the last few days. The lines are short, lean, and of the best quality items. Again, things were perfect for months until this run the track.
    • It is hooked-up perfectly and is working. It may be damaged, however.
    • At idle, trims are normal at +/- 4%


    Thanks
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
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    SO, I'm having to add a considerable amount of fuel correction through OL now than before (10% globally, and 10 points via map which is a lot). I'm essentially at max fuel system capacity, when previously I had much more fuel headroom. This only happened following that last pass at the track when the venturi came off. This is even the very same tank of fuel and the weather is comparable.

    Ideas on what could be causing this lack of fuel? I can't log LPFP directly, but my HPFP chart seems in line.
    If your high fuel pressure curve matches your previous curve, then the low pressure pump is likely a red herring. The high pressure is either there or it isn't and if its there then anything going on behind that pump is moot.

    Trims are referenced (among other things) on dme observed boost and high fuel pressure. So those are the first two things I'd compare before and after "the change" to get a feeling for what is going on in the DME.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    If your high fuel pressure curve matches your previous curve, then the low pressure pump is likely a red herring. The high pressure is either there or it isn't and if its there then anything going on behind that pump is moot.

    Trims are referenced (among other things) on dme observed boost and high fuel pressure. So those are the first two things I'd compare before and after "the change" to get a feeling for what is going on in the DME.
    Thanks for the insight.

    FWIW, below is my before and after. The Red line in the bottom third is the HPFP (the black also shows "fuel pressure", but I don't know which).
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    These are before/after adjusting open loop now or before/after pump issue? It appears high pressure is dropping down to "8" in both logs making a similar curve before and after. Open loop looks similar enough. Boost looks a bit lower in the top log but the scaling is so damn tiny. Why do they do that lol. I can't see the o2 bias in the logs but I presume that is 0? My $.02 based on the data above would be it's tuning related. Maybe bounce the logs off Shiv for his opinion. He may need to bump up the fuel scalar tables in his flash.

    On the fuel pressure black is fuel pressure and red is fuel pressure out. The difference between those curves is called the fuel pressure bias which is how we fool the DME via that open loop adjustment.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-28-2013 at 01:46 AM.
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    I believe is your LPFP. I know its not best economic solution but change out the pump and try again. It all points to the pump (before & after)
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    I see in the OP you were running E66, was it running 100% prior to this track day when everything went haywire? And if so, have you made any tuning adjustments since logging & running the car successfully on E66 with the Walbro and tune setup?


    In case it happens to be the pump you bought, lots of people have been asking me where I got mine on eBay so I'll share:
    • Go to eBay & search the Part Number (F90000267) for the Walbro 450LPH E85 Pump
    • When the results load, look for eBay seller cole464
    • If you buy from cole464, you can use the Buy It Now feature (currently priced at $180) and will receive the Walbro Pump + Install Kit (Fuel Strainer, Fuel Hose, Harness Pigtail, 2 Clamps & 2 Wire Connectors).


    Also think that people need to really assess their mechanical ability before attempting this on their own. This isn't an intake or FMIC install where it's a direct swap. A faulty Fuel Pump install can clearly cause plenty of additional headaches down the road (Sorry Ghost), so consider saving yourself the headache & take it to a reputable shop from the start.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    These are before/after lowering boost just now or before/after pump issue? It appears high pressure is dropping down to "8" in both logs making a similar curve before and after. Open loop looks similar enough. Boost looks a bit lower in the top log but the scaling is so damn tiny. Why do they do that lol. I can't see the o2 bias in the logs but I presume that is 0? My $.02 based on the data above would be it's tuning related. Maybe bounce the logs off Shiv for his opinion. He may need to bump up the fuel scalar tables in his flash.
    The yellow vertical line is a point in time (5k rpms), and all of the data for that moment is shown in the box on the left ( boost, voltage, etc.). They are both running 17psi at 5k, similar IAT, similar HPFP voltage, but HUGE fuel trim diff (it is pegged now until the very top end). I don't know if I can log AFR bias.

    I can change the scaling and whatnot as needed (this is my normal viewing setup). The only that makes me think it isn't turn related (and I'm 110% happy to be wrong), is the tune didn't change ( flash, piggy map ) nor did the parameters (you are right, it peaks at about 1psi less prior to 5k. I didn't do any high gear pulls, as this is my alpha comparison testing.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AltecBX Click here to enlarge
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    I believe is your LPFP. I know its not best economic solution but change out the pump and try again. It all points to the pump (before & after)
    I have no problem buying another Walbro, if they seems like a reasonable next step. I could also go down to the stock LPFP and e50 for comparison if I had to.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    I see in the OP you were running E66, was it running 100% prior to this track day when everything went haywire? And if so, have you made any tuning adjustments since logging & running the car successfully on E66 with the Walbro and tune setup?


    In case it happens to be the pump you bought, lots of people have been asking me where I got mine on eBay so I'll share:
    • Go to eBay & search the Part Number (F90000267) for the Walbro 450LPH E85 Pump
    • When the results load, look for eBay seller cole464
    • If you buy from cole464, you can use the Buy It Now feature (currently priced at $180) and will receive the Walbro Pump + Install Kit (Fuel Strainer, Fuel Hose, Harness Pigtail, 2 Clamps & 2 Wire Connectors).


    Also think that people need to really assess their mechanical ability before attempting this on their own. This isn't an intake or FMIC install where it's a direct swap. A faulty Fuel Pump install can clearly cause plenty of additional headaches down the road (Sorry Ghost), so consider saving yourself the headache & take it to a reputable shop from the start.
    All good points. This setup worked flawlessly prior, and very, very consistent (I've logged and tuned everything from e10 to e85 in various states of tune). I've been tuning my n54's for two years and have a good handle on it.

    I've also been into cars and building engines, etc. for 15yrs, have two engineering degrees, so the actual FP install is pretty minor Click here to enlarge But your advice on taking it to a shop is surely good for some people who read the forums.

    i installed the pump ~3 months ago without a hitch (outside the borked FP level).

    I appreciate everyone's insights and perspectives. I'm really thinking there might be a component failure here (following the Venturi coming off).
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    Remember it's a details business. Check the o2 bias and DME load before/after. Click here to enlarge
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    Update - I installed a new Walbro (to rule the pump out) and it functions exactly the same as the other (now I have a spare, Click here to enlarge ).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    On the fuel pressure black is fuel pressure and red is fuel pressure out. The difference between those curves is called the fuel pressure bias which is how we fool the DME via that open loop adjustment.
    That is very informative and helpful. Thanks a bunch Terry.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    Remember it's a details business. Check the o2 bias and DME load before/after. Click here to enlarge
    I can only find the load in/out, but can't find a channel for o2 bias. @shiv@vishnu, how does this work?
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    @shiv@vishnu any thoughts?
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    Too soon??
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge

    Too soon??
    I lol'd.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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    FWIW, I was running strong and suddenly, without warning, started hitting a major fuel cut under WOT with DME code 29DC, cylinder injection shutdown. From the first stumble on the car could not go WOT without limping. Lot of people were betting it was my LPFP as logs seemed to indicate it was going out. I was about to order a walbro and decided to have the dealer swap my HPFP since the code is enough to have them warranty the swap - it was the HPFP and only the HPFP. Since then, LPFP "going out" symptoms are gone, logs are clean, etc. I had the HPFP done with FBO mods and tune, too.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dfv2 Click here to enlarge
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    FWIW, I was running strong and suddenly, without warning, started hitting a major fuel cut under WOT with DME code 29DC, cylinder injection shutdown. From the first stumble on the car could not go WOT without limping. Lot of people were betting it was my LPFP as logs seemed to indicate it was going out. I was about to order a walbro and decided to have the dealer swap my HPFP since the code is enough to have them warranty the swap - it was the HPFP and only the HPFP. Since then, LPFP "going out" symptoms are gone, logs are clean, etc. I had the HPFP done with FBO mods and tune, too.
    You guys are really flying blind without being able to monitor both low fuel pressure AND high fuel pressure easily. Lobby to get that resolved ASAP for proper fuel system troubleshooting.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dfv2 Click here to enlarge
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    FWIW, I was running strong and suddenly, without warning, started hitting a major fuel cut under WOT with DME code 29DC, cylinder injection shutdown. From the first stumble on the car could not go WOT without limping. Lot of people were betting it was my LPFP as logs seemed to indicate it was going out. I was about to order a walbro and decided to have the dealer swap my HPFP since the code is enough to have them warranty the swap - it was the HPFP and only the HPFP. Since then, LPFP "going out" symptoms are gone, logs are clean, etc. I had the HPFP done with FBO mods and tune, too.

    I wondered if it was the HPFP. How did you go about getting them to replace it?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    You guys are really flying blind without being able to monitor both low fuel pressure AND high fuel pressure easily. Lobby to get that resolved ASAP for proper fuel system troubleshooting.
    I ordered an AP today from your site to address this very thing. Click here to enlarge

    Thanks T
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
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    I wondered if it was the HPFP. How did you go about getting them to replace it?
    The HPFP was a recall. They have to replace it if it's broken.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
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    The HPFP was a recall. They have to replace it if it's broken.
    I know this, but in his case, it wasn't broken at all. He had intermittent performance hiccups in his modded car. Typically, you get these replaced because you get some tell tail codes or the HPFP dies all together.

    My question is, how did you phrase your symptoms in such a way to persuade/convince them to replace it?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
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    I wondered if it was the HPFP. How did you go about getting them to replace it?


    I ordered an AP today from your site to address this very thing. Click here to enlarge

    Thanks T
    Nice! Click here to enlarge If you want to try out one of our flash files just email me your DME version and I'll send it over.
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  25. #74
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
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    I know this, but in his case, it wasn't broken at all. He had intermittent performance hiccups in his modded car. Typically, you get these replaced because you get some tell tail codes or the HPFP dies all together.

    My question is, how did you phrase your symptoms in such a way to persuade/convince them to replace it?
    From his post he said the code was enough to get the pump replaced by the dealer. So if you're getting the same code he was I would expect that you could get it replaced with no problems. But the dealer always likes to create problems.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
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    From his post he said the code was enough to get the pump replaced by the dealer. So if you're getting the same code he was I would expect that you could get it replaced with no problems. But the dealer always likes to create problems.
    Mostly true. If your car is bouncing into limp mode and pops that code (and/or the HPFP system codes) you can get the HPFP replaced under warranty with little to no questions asked.

    (Sorry for hijack) Be forewarned that you need to communicate with your SA that you're heavily modded, and get him/her to at least verbally agree to talk to the shop forman in advance. My dealership wrench-turners report mods to the foreman for guidance, and the foreman makes the call to procede or not. Not sure if all dealerships work this way? I tend to think there's other mod-friendly dealserships out there, you just need to pick the right SA and hope they get along with everyone else.

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