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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    For what I remember reading, the stock FPR only gets overwhelmed with the increased volume of running two parallel pumps. If the FPR was changed, the fuel pressure should stay more constant even with a parallel pump setup, regardless of the flow out of the tank.
    Good point... Is the in tank FPR glitzed with electronics or is it replaceable?
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  2. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    And that to me is the biggest draw. I dont' want the hassle of running another tank, etc. In fact I don't think we need 6 injectors. I think 2 1600cc running the LPFP pressure, should supply enough fuel to push the 63Rs to the limit. This probably wouldn't work so well if the TB wasn't positioned dead-center on the intake mani. I think if you begin the PWM cycle at ~5psi and 100% TPS, and make it linearly scale up with a scale variable using boost as the control signal; then it would probably work. This is pretty much what normal additional injector controllers do.
    I agree. Two injectors should be fine at getting fuel to all 6 cylinders since the TB is dead center of the manifold. Assuming equal air flow will be achieved to all six cylinders, it should carry the fuel with it since it is moving at a fairly high velocity and originating from the center of the manifold.
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  3. #78
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I agree. Two injectors should be fine at getting fuel to all 6 cylinders since the TB is dead center of the manifold. Assuming equal air flow will be achieved to all six cylinders, it should carry the fuel with it since it is moving at a fairly high velocity and originating from the center of the manifold.
    I dunno, I'd expect this to be no different than with pre-tb meth injection, your front and rear cyls get 'starved'. Mix doesn't stay 100%. Everyone running pre-tb meth injection has this problem.

    **I think everyone running pre-tb meth injection has this problem.
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  4. #79
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    I dunno, I'd expect this to be no different than with pre-tb meth injection, your front and rear cyls get 'starved'. Mix doesn't stay 100%. Everyone running pre-tb meth injection has this problem.

    **I think everyone running pre-tb meth injection has this problem.
    What evidence do you have that the 1 and 6 cylinders are getting less fuel? This is also not the same as saying the 1 and 6 cylinders aren't getting any fuel. They will still get more fuel than they had before, the DI injectors 2-5 can just cut back a bit by whatever difference in fueling there is getting to the 1 and 6 and then push more fuel through PI... I don't see why even if there were fuel distribution problems why we'd have to think that it couldn't be even by distributing the fueling load between PI and DI on a per cylinder basis.

    If cylinder 1 and 6 get say, 80% from DI and 20% from PI, and cylinders 2-5 get 60% from DI and 40% from PI, whats it really matter? Just less and less stress on the HPFP is all I can see more and more...
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  5. #80
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    The fuel pressure regulator is replaceable. As for the fuel starving, I'm not sure how big of a problem this is on our motors, but they weren't designed for tbi or blow through. Air is similar to fluid though, so I would think distribution would be even. Also, I'm not sure how accurately the dme car adjust fuel in high power situations cylinder to cylinder. Some info there would be great, most cars I've worked adjust in cylinder banks in open loop. Even with our closed loop, I think it's only adjusting banks of three up high.

  6. #81
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    There's a "right" way and a "sufficient" way to do everything. Sure some of the aforementioned stuff will be sufficient probably to meet the needs of today's mods that are available. If I'm going to put the time into it,I'd certainly want to have the system capable of surpassing whatever fuel demands are needed at the moment by a decent margin right from the get go, instead of tacking on revisions in the future to meet demand. The power levels will only climb as options become available over time, as it does with everything...why not prepare for it in advance...it's inevitable.

  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rick@defiv Click here to enlarge
    There's a "right" way and a "sufficient" way to do everything. Sure some of the aforementioned stuff will be sufficient probably to meet the needs of today's mods that are available. If I'm going to put the time into it,I'd certainly want to have the system capable of surpassing whatever fuel demands are needed at the moment by a decent margin right from the get go, instead of tacking on revisions in the future to meet demand. The power levels will only climb as options become available over time, as it does with everything...why not prepare for it in advance...it's inevitable.
    We can hope to win the megamillions also, but we have nothing right now and I'll take the local lottery at the moment, a win is a win. I agree that better solutions are, well 'better'. However many things we do to our cars aren't the best option, but they are perfectly functional. For example, we should really just skip the TB plate and your injector plate all together and just go with HPFP upgrade and use DI. But still, it doesn't mean we shouldn't make your injector plate or the TBI plate.
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  8. #83
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    Well, shiv for one (and I know we all hate quoting shiv) mentioned that with chargepipe injection on a 2.5" diameter pipe that he was having problems with 1 and 6 being leaner, this is why his chargepipe is 3". He also said that even with a 3" pipe 1-6 will still always be leaner, and so you have to compensate for that when tuning.
    Other people who have worked on meth systems on these cars have seen and said the same thing. If you think about it you have fluid suspended in air the fluid has to make it all the way to either end of that long intake manifold. It just won't be 100% mix. I wouldn't be surprised if it's more like 1,2 starved and lean and 4,5,6 are OK due to how the air needs to bend.

    I think that TB injection would be 'fine' and 'economical' my point was that TB injection isn't much better than chargepipe injection. So if we're really looking to 'step it up' it should be port injection or bust.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    What evidence do you have that the 1 and 6 cylinders are getting less fuel? This is also not the same as saying the 1 and 6 cylinders aren't getting any fuel. They will still get more fuel than they had before, the DI injectors 2-5 can just cut back a bit by whatever difference in fueling there is getting to the 1 and 6 and then push more fuel through PI... I don't see why even if there were fuel distribution problems why we'd have to think that it couldn't be even by distributing the fueling load between PI and DI on a per cylinder basis.

    If cylinder 1 and 6 get say, 80% from DI and 20% from PI, and cylinders 2-5 get 60% from DI and 40% from PI, whats it really matter? Just less and less stress on the HPFP is all I can see more and more...
    LEMANS BLUE M-TECH E92->PROCEDE REV3::ETS 7" FMIC::RACELAND DPS::WAVETRAC DIFF::DEFIV DIFF LOCKDOWN::DEFIV OCC::DEFIV INTAKE::RB PCV

  9. #84
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rick@defiv Click here to enlarge
    There's a "right" way and a "sufficient" way to do everything. Sure some of the aforementioned stuff will be sufficient probably to meet the needs of today's mods that are available. If I'm going to put the time into it,I'd certainly want to have the system capable of surpassing whatever fuel demands are needed at the moment by a decent margin right from the get go, instead of tacking on revisions in the future to meet demand. The power levels will only climb as options become available over time, as it does with everything...why not prepare for it in advance...it's inevitable.
    Agreed. But I'm for stopgap solutions for the here and now too. If there's a HPFP option or an affordable port-injection setup by the time Stg3's ship; rock on! But if there's not, I'll be glad for the TB injection option giving a 50whp-100whp ceiling for the 63/67R guys.

  10. #85
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    Well, shiv for one (and I know we all hate quoting shiv) mentioned that with chargepipe injection on a 2.5" diameter pipe that he was having problems with 1 and 6 being leaner, this is why his chargepipe is 3". He also said that even with a 3" pipe 1-6 will still always be leaner, and so you have to compensate for that when tuning.
    Other people who have worked on meth systems on these cars have seen and said the same thing. If you think about it you have fluid suspended in air the fluid has to make it all the way to either end of that long intake manifold. It just won't be 100% mix. I wouldn't be surprised if it's more like 1,2 starved and lean and 4,5,6 are OK due to how the air needs to bend.

    I think that TB injection would be 'fine' and 'economical' my point was that TB injection isn't much better than chargepipe injection. So if we're really looking to 'step it up' it should be port injection or bust.
    My goal is to get more fuel into the cylinders using a quality injector. If we gotta tune it out, I'm not against it.There will be two injectors here, its possible to run a little more fuel in one injector than the other setup in bank fire mode even if we had to, which I don't anticipate we would, to overcome this issue you've presented.
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  11. #86
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    My goal is to get more fuel into the cylinders using a quality injector. If we gotta tune it out, I'm not against it.There will be two injectors here, its possible to run a little more fuel in one injector than the other setup in bank fire mode even if we had to, which I don't anticipate we would, to overcome this issue you've presented.
    More fuel = better Click here to enlarge
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  12. #87
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    Well, shiv for one (and I know we all hate quoting shiv) mentioned that with chargepipe injection on a 2.5" diameter pipe that he was having problems with 1 and 6 being leaner, this is why his chargepipe is 3". He also said that even with a 3" pipe 1-6 will still always be leaner, and so you have to compensate for that when tuning.
    Other people who have worked on meth systems on these cars have seen and said the same thing. If you think about it you have fluid suspended in air the fluid has to make it all the way to either end of that long intake manifold. It just won't be 100% mix. I wouldn't be surprised if it's more like 1,2 starved and lean and 4,5,6 are OK due to how the air needs to bend.

    I think that TB injection would be 'fine' and 'economical' my point was that TB injection isn't much better than chargepipe injection. So if we're really looking to 'step it up' it should be port injection or bust.
    Shiv is a smart guy and good with tuning. You just have to sort through his BS and propaganda and the way he likes to make big theoretical advantages sound like the only way to do something. In this case he was probably right, but for reasons he didn't disclose. He uses a PWM system that operates on lower PSI than most of the other systems. On a 2.5" pipe you have a much higher intake velocity versus a 3" pipe, and the pressure of his system was probably inadequate to overcome the airs velocity with the 2.5" pipe. Also, the more meth you inject, if it's mixed with water, etc will all effect distribution based on if the meth evaporates in the pipes or in the cylinder. Regardless, his cylinder data is important to note.

    I would really like the port fuel setup for E85/gasoline for the stage 3's. Much less maintenance. Make this happen man. As a fallback the TBI setup may work well, maybe code cylinder 1/6 injectors a bit differently, or something else in Cobb to adjust for a little big of added safety. I don't think many are concerned with fuel economy or emissions anyway and E85 is incredibly forgiving to rich/lean mixtures, in fact it makes peak power at a lower lambda than gasoline and resists detonation at higher lambda's. Good stuff.

  13. #88
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Shiv is a smart guy and good with tuning. You just have to sort through his BS and propaganda and the way he likes to make big theoretical advantages sound like the only way to do something. In this case he was probably right, but for reasons he didn't disclose. He uses a PWM system that operates on lower PSI than most of the other systems. On a 2.5" pipe you have a much higher intake velocity versus a 3" pipe, and the pressure of his system was probably inadequate to overcome the airs velocity with the 2.5" pipe. Also, the more meth you inject, if it's mixed with water, etc will all effect distribution based on if the meth evaporates in the pipes or in the cylinder. Regardless, his cylinder data is important to note.

    I would really like the port fuel setup for E85/gasoline for the stage 3's. Much less maintenance. Make this happen man. As a fallback the TBI setup may work well, maybe code cylinder 1/6 injectors a bit differently, or something else in Cobb to adjust for a little big of added safety. I don't think many are concerned with fuel economy or emissions anyway and E85 is incredibly forgiving to rich/lean mixtures, in fact it makes peak power at a lower lambda than gasoline and resists detonation at higher lambda's. Good stuff.
    I'm talking to him about a 6 port injector plate also. More options are good Click here to enlarge

    Perhaps, TBI for 600-650 wheel, and Individual Port Injection for 650-700+, all on pump! Sounds like a great plan to me.
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    Whatever happened with this?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Whatever happened with this?
    On the N54 platform? Nothing I guess.

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  16. #91
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    Nobody wanted to drop by to get measured... lame. If someone is in the area I may get it on the table again.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Nobody wanted to drop by to get measured... lame. If someone is in the area I may get it on the table again.
    Doesn't someone already make an intake manifold with 6 injector ports? Doing AIC with 6 injectors seems perfectly safe, tap into the existing low pressure fuel lines for the supply... this seems like a better idea overall than messing with the HPFP, although Vargas has had some success so far with that.

  18. #93
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Doesn't someone already make an intake manifold with 6 injector ports? Doing AIC with 6 injectors seems perfectly safe, tap into the existing low pressure fuel lines for the supply... this seems like a better idea overall than messing with the HPFP, although Vargas has had some success so far with that.
    That is made by defiv if I remember correctly but not released. And likely to cost much more than a simple two port spacer. Somebody just needs to bring a car by the Van Nuys area.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I'm telling you guys, this will work great, I'm certain of it. Some people just need to get off the DI high horse. First person to flow a ton of E85 into this engine is going to break records, guaranteed.

    The best part about this, is this company already has a controller that was designed to tune these extra injectors on a TBI setup. We could use our own as well. Who lives in LA?
    So....what is keeping you from putting your motor on the line if you are soooo certain that it'll work and is safe? And don't say your car doesn't need the fuel, bc if that's the case, why are you pushing soooo hard for this? Just an honest question, not trying to bash.

  20. #95
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Doesn't someone already make an intake manifold with 6 injector ports? Doing AIC with 6 injectors seems perfectly safe, tap into the existing low pressure fuel lines for the supply... this seems like a better idea overall than messing with the HPFP, although Vargas has had some success so far with that.
    i vaguely remember a post by HPF with a PI manifold .....

    i wonder who has the rights to it now?
    boop

  21. #96
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    i vaguely remember a post by HPF with a PI manifold .....

    i wonder who has the rights to it now?
    Their creditor I think which is a guy on the forum.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Their creditor I think which is a guy on the forum.
    Same guy that now owns the e46 kit? I saw his post on e46fanatics saying he had made a large investment into their e46 kit design a few months ago or so.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Their creditor I think which is a guy on the forum.
    true..

    except rights to some things have been purchased by other vendors already, so there's a chance someone could have been on the ball and grabbed rights to the manifold?

    maybe, maybe not...
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mycoupe Click here to enlarge
    So....what is keeping you from putting your motor on the line if you are soooo certain that it'll work and is safe? And don't say your car doesn't need the fuel, bc if that's the case, why are you pushing soooo hard for this? Just an honest question, not trying to bash.
    He's in the northeast. The company is in SoCal. They need a car local to take measurements.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mycoupe Click here to enlarge
    Same guy that now owns the e46 kit? I saw his post on e46fanatics saying he had made a large investment into their e46 kit design a few months ago or so.
    Yes that guy. Yes, he made a large investment I feel bad for him.

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