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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    $2k for install sounds a bit much assuming you go on $80/hr.. 25 hours? :/ but yes install *IS* an added cost
    plug in of new ECU/route cables depending on where you want it all installed (i'm guessing it will have to be long enough to run to the trunk?), running of new fuel lines, install of new manifold.

    bonus feature wise, i assume there'll be some sort of package for the N54 (especially with the 112) that will have exactly what you need at less than the price of ECU+addons, especially as a proper flex-fuel setup is a big card. everyone will want one of those or why bother lol.

    and from what i've gathered of the proEFI as it's programmed SPECIFICALLY for the N54 (as in why it's not just plug and play right now), idle, throttle conditions etc.. won't be like starting from scratch in other platforms - every other platform gets some base maps

    add to that it WILL be a 100% plug and play with all the factory N54 stuff..


    and after said quick google search (also on the proEFI forums), you'll find some vendors themselves stating there is software for the end user that isn't locked down for tuning anything, so i assume the same will be be the case for N54.

    so $5k for tuning is a bit on the ultra ultra high side too.

    a total of a solid $8-$10k assuming it's all pretty smooth could be realistic to expect though...
    1st off, we need to (unfortunately) remember the ProEFI still hasn't gotten N54 support. So until it does, EVERYTHING we're saying is hypothetical -- Pricing, Tuning, etc etc.

    2nd, Install Fee could vary from shop to shop, whether it's a flat fee or if it's an hourly service, but I can nearly guarantee you that not a single one of these shops labor rate is $80/hr. For comparisons sake, the ProEFI Standalone & Harness Package for the E46 M3 is over $3k (that's no CAN display, gauges, or additional sensors you might want, ie the Ethanol Sensor). A "base map" for the VTTS3s will only be developed once a handful have been developed for each different turbo size, but until then it's all from scratch. BUT that's why the ProEFI will be the best for any non-OEM turbo setups, because each tune can be tailored to an aftermarket motor (adjusted CR, forged motor, etc) and turbo combination (VTTS3s, Single Turbos, etc). And you have to remember it's not ProEFI making & releasing the tunes, it's each respective tuner, thus each respective tuner will have their own style & approach (only to be combined with a customer's preferences & expectations) on how the car will be tuned and what the performance goals are.

    Bottom line is the physical hardware is always the easiest part to put together, logistically develop & execute, and will be the least costly. The software & tuning is ALWAYS the most expensive element in modding a car. And regardless of what platform you decide to work on, "affordable" goes out the window when you introduce a standalone EMS.
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  2. #27
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    Okay folks, I got this PM from a shop in Van Nuys are if someone is willing to lend their car:

    If I can get a car I can make the tb spacer with two additional injectors for someone to test. This is how we did it on the supercharged Aston vantages we tuned. It worked very well.
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  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Almost as good as injecting meth right into the manifold in terms of latent heat and octane, much better than meth in terms of additional fueling benefits, simpler due to no tanks or leaking fittings, no cleaning, this is what I want. Twin injectors on a TBI setup would be cheap too. Although I think I'd prefer a spacer between the manifold and the head with 6 injectors. Set them up in two batch banks and pulse them in relation to average duty cycle of those banks in a non linear manner, that way you preserve most of your DI fueling benefits down low but get some added valve cleaning too, and no distribution issues.

    Terry could easily put together a peak and hold driver board. I've soldered a few together on my megasquirt back in the day (diyautotune.com has a wealth of knowledge on those boards). In fact I bet he could use that same circuit layout (it's open source) and just interface it with the JB4. But I'm not sure that this will ever get much attention.
    I think people will pay for the controller and the spacer. Its not that expensive considering the battle that will be won. Since this shop(Which fabricates good stuff on a variety of platforms) is suggesting the two injectors as well, what kind/size injectors should we try stuffing in there with a spray pattern that will accommodate the space?
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    1st off, we need to (unfortunately) remember the ProEFI still hasn't gotten N54 support. So until it does, EVERYTHING we're saying is hypothetical -- Pricing, Tuning, etc etc.

    2nd, Install Fee could vary from shop to shop, whether it's a flat fee or if it's an hourly service, but I can nearly guarantee you that not a single one of these shops labor rate is $80/hr. For comparisons sake, the ProEFI Standalone & Harness Package for the E46 M3 is over $3k (that's no CAN display, gauges, or additional sensors you might want, ie the Ethanol Sensor). A "base map" for the VTTS3s will only be developed once a handful have been developed for each different turbo size, but until then it's all from scratch. BUT that's why the ProEFI will be the best for any non-OEM turbo setups, because each tune can be tailored to an aftermarket motor (adjusted CR, forged motor, etc) and turbo combination (VTTS3s, Single Turbos, etc). And you have to remember it's not ProEFI making & releasing the tunes, it's each respective tuner, thus each respective tuner will have their own style & approach (only to be combined with a customer's preferences & expectations) on how the car will be tuned and what the performance goals are.

    Bottom line is the physical hardware is always the easiest part to put together, logistically develop & execute, and will be the least costly. The software & tuning is ALWAYS the most expensive element in modding a car. And regardless of what platform you decide to work on, "affordable" goes out the window when you introduce a standalone EMS.
    This is true, they could come up and charge $4k+options for all we know.

    really more exxy than $80? it's about the going rate for most top shops over here, if you ask $100/hr you risk losing customers to the $80/hr shops lol

    i wonder why it's $3200 when the 2j's are $2800. bit of a jump. probably an 'm tax'

    considering the VTT3's ran fine on the *OEM TUNE* i'd assume a base map will basically be a base map.. not a tune, but an 'it will run ok, but it's not going to perform well' - that's what i meant by 'base map' not an OTS tune for a specific mod level, something that will immediately make the car driveable to get a dyno tune on it.

    many platform's are cheap on standalones, any japanese turbo, the most expensive part is buying the standalone itself, evo's, even an X, peanuts to tune... it all depends on whether or not the tuner knows the platform, if you go to someone who doesn't, then you're in for many more hours - the shop i'll be choosing locally is pretty good, built and tuned many race N54's, and has even initially tuned ECU's with manual hex edits for a fair price in the past-

    about $1000 odd for a decent dyno tune if they know the platform should be reasonable?

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    This is true, they could come up and charge $4k+options for all we know.

    really more exxy than $80? it's about the going rate for most top shops over here, if you ask $100/hr you risk losing customers to the $80/hr shops lol

    i wonder why it's $3200 when the 2j's are $2800. bit of a jump. probably an 'm tax'

    considering the VTT3's ran fine on the *OEM TUNE* i'd assume a base map will basically be a base map.. not a tune, but an 'it will run ok, but it's not going to perform well' - that's what i meant by 'base map' not an OTS tune for a specific mod level, something that will immediately make the car driveable to get a dyno tune on it.

    many platform's are cheap on standalones, any japanese turbo, the most expensive part is buying the standalone itself, evo's, even an X, peanuts to tune... it all depends on whether or not the tuner knows the platform, if you go to someone who doesn't, then you're in for many more hours - the shop i'll be choosing locally is pretty good, built and tuned many race N54's, and has even initially tuned ECU's with manual hex edits for a fair price in the past-

    about $1000 odd for a decent dyno tune if they know the platform should be reasonable?
    I mean, there are a few indies around me that would do $80/hr, but I wouldn't trust any of them with my car & tuning a standalone. If you look at that list of ProEFI vendors/tuners (or even other standalone tuners that use MoTec or Pectel), they're all very well known shop & I'd expect labor to be somewhere between $100/hr and up (especially if you go to really well known places like Boost Logic or Late Model Racecraft). The ProEFI standalones I think are priced the same, it's the harnesses that kill you depending on which platform you go with: larger market share (ex: Supra's) prob lowers the cost.

    The best part about the VTTS3s is that they operate like OEM turbos, which is why tuning with the COBB, JB4 or PROcede can still work. But you're still limited to working & tuning with the OEM tables (which weren't designed for monster GTX twins).
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  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I mean, there are a few indies around me that would do $80/hr, but I wouldn't trust any of them with my car & tuning a standalone. If you look at that list of ProEFI vendors/tuners (or even other standalone tuners that use MoTec or Pectel), they're all very well known shop & I'd expect labor to be somewhere between $100/hr and up (especially if you go to really well known places like Boost Logic or Late Model Racecraft). The ProEFI standalones I think are priced the same, it's the harnesses that kill you depending on which platform you go with: larger market share (ex: Supra's) prob lowers the cost.

    The best part about the VTTS3s is that they operate like OEM turbos, which is why tuning with the COBB, JB4 or PROcede can still work. But you're still limited to working & tuning with the OEM tables (which weren't designed for monster GTX twins).
    Fair enough, i'm sure i could find some $100/hr+ places here, but i know of enough that are less and have nothing bad going for them (being i'm in Australia, totally different shops haha)
    even for machine work, it seems a sight cheaper over here (like headwork and such) - i always see supra build cost numbers from the US, and it's at least double what it would cost over here fairly consistently.

    fair enough, i understand a standalone would bring in some MAJOR changes, especially with it being able to happily run a single without having a panic attack lol.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I think people will pay for the controller and the spacer. Its not that expensive considering the battle that will be won. Since this shop(Which fabricates good stuff on a variety of platforms) is suggesting the two injectors as well, what kind/size injectors should we try stuffing in there with a spray pattern that will accommodate the space?
    On TBI you kinda have to run twin injectors due to the way the injectors are pulsed. PWM meth kits do the same thing usually.

    As for size and spray pattern, that's a good question and over my head/time commitment tonight haha.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    Option two is easy. I ran my E36 M3 like that successfully. It was a breeze to tune as well.
    What controller did you use to tune it/controll the injector?
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  9. #34
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    FWIW, the Megasquirt should handle this EASILY. They can be setup to run just fuel and in piggyback mode. It really isn't that hard. You could probably get Terry to add outputs to the JB4 if you need control signaling.

  10. #35
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    Got a new message:

    I would only need the car for a few hours to take some dimensions. It takes me about 30 minutes to dimension a tb and I would need to dim the car for space restrictions. We could use 2 siemens dekka short style injectors. They work very well. We use the 60lb variant on our e39 m5 sc kits. We also have a fuel controller that we developed specifically for this purpose. We used it on the e46 m3 but it's the same idea. Or there are plenty of other fueling controllers out there that can get the job done.

    I think this could be an interesting project. I could make a few prototypes and we can get them out to a few people who are willing to test it out. It can be user tunable too. That way small adjustments could be made on a dyno. If you or anyone else can get me a car for a couple hours I can crank out a cad file and have something to work with.
    So he already has a controller that will work with the hardware, just need someone to lend a car and be willing to test the prototypes.
    Last edited by klipseracer; 03-18-2013 at 02:28 PM.
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    Given that the N54 DME runs in closed loop mode full time, would the supplemental injection even have to be very accurate? Seems that the DME would adjust to the presence of the extra fuel automatically within the range of the fuel trims, no?

  12. #37
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    I've been contemplating that myself. The DME uses load targeting with closed loop O2 feedback. Judging by how the E85 mixes and such work (i think they adjust a fuel scaling via a cobb table, but even then it sounds more like a 'slider' to adjust the base value prior to the DME doing its magic, aside from obvious timing changes). I think if its pulsed in a PWM manner to match actual load or at least something close, that it might 'just work' rather easily. Which is why I think an optional PWM output coming from a JB4 could handle the control signals, it would just need a driver box (something like a Megasquirt or Microsquirt could handle just fine).

    Though I'm still very new to this platform, I do know it isn't that easy with all the other cars I've owned/modded. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    I've been contemplating that myself. The DME uses load targeting with closed loop O2 feedback. Judging by how the E85 mixes and such work (i think they adjust a fuel scaling via a cobb table, but even then it sounds more like a 'slider' to adjust the base value prior to the DME doing its magic, aside from obvious timing changes). I think if its pulsed in a PWM manner to match actual load or at least something close, that it might 'just work' rather easily. Which is why I think an optional PWM output coming from a JB4 could handle the control signals, it would just need a driver box (something like a Megasquirt or Microsquirt could handle just fine).

    Though I'm still very new to this platform, I do know it isn't that easy with all the other cars I've owned/modded. Click here to enlarge
    Well just as an example, when you run meth (which is nothing but a supplemental injector system) the DME will dramatically pull your fuel trims back as the o2 sensors detect the extra fuel.

    Not too be stupidly simplistic, but what would stop you from running a boost switch with say 2 720cc injectors, at 5 psi they turn on at some pre-determined duty cycle. Your supplemental injector controller needs nothing but a boost sensor. It would give you whatever extra fuel 2 720cc injectors @ 75% duty cycle could give, and you'd watch your fuel trims on the DME just like normal. These would just give you a ton of extra overhead.

    I understand you'd need failsafe and a way to enable/disable the supplemental injectors, but why would that scheme not work?

    Someone more educated than me fill me in.

    Side benefit: it'd clean the intake valves.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Well just as an example, when you run meth (which is nothing but a supplemental injector system) the DME will dramatically pull your fuel trims back as the o2 sensors detect the extra fuel.

    Not too be stupidly simplistic, but what would stop you from running a boost switch with say 2 720cc injectors, at 5 psi they turn on at some pre-determined duty cycle. Your supplemental injector controller needs nothing but a boost sensor. It would give you whatever extra fuel 2 720cc injectors @ 75% duty cycle could give, and you'd watch your fuel trims on the DME just like normal. These would just give you a ton of extra overhead.

    I understand you'd need failsafe and a way to enable/disable the supplemental injectors, but why would that scheme not work?

    Someone more educated than me fill me in.

    Side benefit: it'd clean the intake valves.
    Agreed, meth is another good example; and that is also my understanding of it. My only concern is the impact of port-injection on detonation as the DI nature of the car let's it avoid detonation issues that PI engines would be having at the same compression ratio and ignition timing. I'm sure the stock DME would handle it, but would doing this make it go all crazy with timing pulls? This isn't meth being injected. (perhaps it'd be different if it were E85 Click here to enlarge )

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Given that the N54 DME runs in closed loop mode full time, would the supplemental injection even have to be very accurate? Seems that the DME would adjust to the presence of the extra fuel automatically within the range of the fuel trims, no?
    I'm telling you guys, this will work great, I'm certain of it. Some people just need to get off the DI high horse. First person to flow a ton of E85 into this engine is going to break records, guaranteed.

    The best part about this, is this company already has a controller that was designed to tune these extra injectors on a TBI setup. We could use our own as well. Who lives in LA?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    Agreed, meth is another good example; and that is also my understanding of it. My only concern is the impact of port-injection on detonation as the DI nature of the car let's it avoid detonation issues that PI engines would be having at the same compression ratio and ignition timing. I'm sure the stock DME would handle it, but would doing this make it go all crazy with timing pulls? This isn't meth being injected. (perhaps it'd be different if it were E85 Click here to enlarge )
    Lets start with E85. Even if timing does get pulled a little bit, We can boost to the sky(relatively) with all the extra fuel to avoid going lean. Plus E85 has a nice octane rating as is.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    I've been contemplating that myself. The DME uses load targeting with closed loop O2 feedback. Judging by how the E85 mixes and such work (i think they adjust a fuel scaling via a cobb table, but even then it sounds more like a 'slider' to adjust the base value prior to the DME doing its magic, aside from obvious timing changes). I think if its pulsed in a PWM manner to match actual load or at least something close, that it might 'just work' rather easily. Which is why I think an optional PWM output coming from a JB4 could handle the control signals, it would just need a driver box (something like a Megasquirt or Microsquirt could handle just fine).

    Though I'm still very new to this platform, I do know it isn't that easy with all the other cars I've owned/modded. Click here to enlarge
    This. I was always a huge fan of the DIY stuff on megasquirt, but I doubt we need anything nearly that fancy.

    The car operating in closed loop is a major bonus over any car I've ever modified by leaps and bounds. You can't lean on it for everything, but you can use it for a pretty crazy amount of correction with minimal tuning. Maybe one of the real tuners can enlighten us to just how far the limits of the closed loop fueling corrections are, although I'm sure it's nearly limitless for the piggybacks.

    Alpha-N tuning the additional injection (TPS vs RPM) would probably be accurate enough for the DME to closed loop adjust the rest. TPS vs RPM with a boost scaler would be even better. Load based, IDC based, etc would be best. Ideally you want to phase additional injection in with normal injectors to take advantage of the DI regardless of gas. With methanol on a car running pump gas, I have the opposite opinion, in that case you should let loose the flood with as much meth as you can afford.

    Stay as far left as you can at all times:
    DI Methanol > DI E85 = TBI Methanol > TBI E85 >> DI gasoline > TBI gasoline *Edit* assuming pumpgas 91-93 octane
    Last edited by V8Bait; 03-18-2013 at 04:00 PM.

  18. #43
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    Got another reply from the Shop. Their controller is 350, however they are more than willing to have us use any other controller. Whose in LA??? Stock car, loaner, whatever.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I'm telling you guys, this will work great, I'm certain of it. Some people just need to get off the DI high horse. First person to flow a ton of E85 into this engine is going to break records, guaranteed.
    Just wanna make it clear (and I know in the OP we addressed that this is more suited for VTTS3s & Single Turbos), that we can run 100% E85 on the OEM Turbos & most likely the RBs/Vargas Stage 2s.
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  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Just wanna make it clear (and I know in the OP we addressed that this is more suited for VTTS3s & Single Turbos), that we can run 100% E85 on the OEM Turbos & most likely the RBs/Vargas Stage 2s.
    Yes, The additional fueling would be good for not just big twins, but upgraded twins and even stock turbos. The bigger the flow potential of the turbo the more potential benefit to be had of course.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Yes, The additional fueling would be good for not just big twins, but upgraded twins and even stock turbos. The bigger the flow potential of the turbo the more potential benefit to be had of course.
    Totally with you, I just don't want the complexity on my car, and I don't need 600+ rwhp. 500-550 is fine for me. My requirement is I want that 500-550 in a low-stress package not on maxed-out RB's with meth etc.

    When someone comes up with an upgraded HPFP I'll look at it. My car runs 30 minutes at a time not 10-12 seconds. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Totally with you, I just don't want the complexity on my car, and I don't need 600+ rwhp. 500-550 is fine for me. My requirement is I want that 500-550 in a low-stress package not on maxed-out RB's with meth etc.

    When someone comes up with an upgraded HPFP I'll look at it. My car runs 30 minutes at a time not 10-12 seconds. Click here to enlarge
    Problem here is with even big twins, the hpfp begins to struggle around those power ranges you're talking about, even with an upgrade LPFP setup pushing from behind. Anyone running the stock HPFP for any period of time at 550 is going to put a lot of strain on the hpfp.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Totally with you, I just don't want the complexity on my car, and I don't need 600+ rwhp. 500-550 is fine for me. My requirement is I want that 500-550 in a low-stress package not on maxed-out RB's with meth etc.

    When someone comes up with an upgraded HPFP I'll look at it. My car runs 30 minutes at a time not 10-12 seconds. Click here to enlarge
    TBI fuel injectors with a straight E85 tune is superior to pumpgas + meth in every way. It should be around equal in power, but much safer and more reliable.

    Methanol injection is great, for those who only have pumpgas available. For those with E85 access it's not ideal.

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    Klip in your ideal solution, would you tap the fuel line from the main gas tank and supplementally inject from the flow prior to the HPFP, or would you run new lines from an auxiliary tank?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Klip in your ideal solution, would you tap the fuel line from the main gas tank and supplementally inject from the flow prior to the HPFP, or would you run new lines from an auxiliary tank?
    Ideal has many focuses, however for sake of simplicity, I'd tap the line with a Y right before the HPFP with a parallel in tank LPFP. For flexibility, some may opt for a separate tank but I think thats unnecessary IMO. The shop doing this has done it many times before and they seem quite open to suggestions.
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