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    Technical: Supplemental Port Injection

    So with the VTTS3 on the horizon, we can once again see our fueling limits. With turbo options and boost capabilities beyond the capacity of our fuel system we can sit here and wait for the unicorn HPFP upgrade that never seems to appear or find our own solutions. From my chair, I see two options:

    1) Wait for ProEFI, pony up for the Standalone + Custom Intake Manifold

    2) Fabricate a TB Spacer and/or custom CP with a single Supplemental Batch Fire injector controlled by a piggy.

    I'm personally leaning toward option #2 in terms of wide spread adoption. Our DME is smart enough to compensate for the lack of extreme precision batchfire through a piggyback would provide and reduces the overall cost of getting more REAL fuel into the combustion chamber.

    I personally have brought this up and @shiv@vishnu and co and he has mentioned that this is possible however I feel that there is another agenda there blocking this option. It is not the best option but its a solution to a huge problem holding this platform back. If he were to change his mind and provide a product then I would be surprised.

    So at this point I think I'm going to challenge @Terry@BMS and ask, are you capable of introducing this injector? It would show the true flexibility of a piggyback I think we just need to do it already. Comments?
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    is running a Fabricate a TB Spacer or custom CP with a single supplemental batch Fire injector controlled by a piggy safe?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AltecBX Click here to enlarge
    is running a Fabricate a TB Spacer or custom CP with a single supplemental batch Fire injector controlled by a piggy safe?
    Is running tons of non PWM, dripping methanol through a bunch of pushlocks safe? Not as sound as the original DI system, but thats not the goal here. We need more fuel. Badly.
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    Option 1. Why half ass it? People will already be out thousands so price dousn't matter much

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
    Option 1. Why half ass it? People will already be out thousands so price dousn't matter much
    But with a New Intake Manifold, New ProEFI unit(Not Cheap) and all the supplemental hardware, tuning required to go along with it, we're talking a LOT more cost. When with the piggybacks we already have, we're only looking at a spacer/cp with fueling lines and hardware for one injector. When you go from another 1000ish to another 5k?, thats a big jump on top of what it already costs, which although are extremely rough costs but points out that this cost disparity would matter. A lot.

    Pro128 is almost 2k(without any of their little sensor addons and accesories, many of which would be required I'm sure). Intake Manifold? Who knows how much plus the 4-6 injectors, etc. This would provide a middle solution for those looking to see 600-700 without methanol and without blowing their wallets open. Its the same people buying stage 2's instead of ST.
    Last edited by klipseracer; 03-17-2013 at 04:59 PM.
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    Throttle port injection lol. Reminds me of my friends Mighty max with a starion motor. It's funny but it works. @RabbitPusher ran supplementary injection for years. It's easy to setup, and there are controller boxes available already. I think he ran his off of a toggle switch. Not the most high tech setup, but it always worked. I honestly prefer option 1, but until Proefi is ready this could work for somebody who needs it. And we, RabbitPusher and I, could definitely help somebody locally who wanted to do this.

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    Option two is easy. I ran my E36 M3 like that successfully. It was a breeze to tune as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    Throttle port injection lol. Reminds me of my friends Mighty max with a starion motor. It's funny but it works. @RabbitPusher ran supplementary injection for years. It's easy to setup, and there are controller boxes available already. I think he ran his off of a toggle switch. Not the most high tech setup, but it always worked. I honestly prefer option 1, but until Proefi is ready this could work for somebody who needs it. And we, RabbitPusher and I, could definitely help somebody locally who wanted to do this.
    So with our cars, would we want a controller that ramps based on boost, rpm, load, combination?

    Perhaps something like this?:

    http://www.034motorsport.com/supplem...-ecu-a-32.html

    Operating Temperature -40 to +85 C
    Battery Voltage Range +6.0 to +20 VDC continuous
    Current Consumption 0.05 - 16 Amperes [@ 100% duty cycle]
    Injector impedance 1.0-1.4, 2.0-4.0 and 12+ ohms
    Maximum RPM 16,000
    Injection Timing Resolution 1 microsecond to 65.535 millisecond [16 bits]
    Communications High Speed RS-232 with STD 9 pin D interface
    Packaging Extruded aluminum casing [4.0 L, 2.0 W, 2.0H]
    Programming/Tuning VIA WIN95/WIN98 and RS-232 port
    Engine Support: Phased
    Manifold Pressure: 2.5 Bar/ATM [Provided in enclosure] up to 265 Kpa or 2.65 Bar Absolute.
    Trigger Modes: Hall Effect Sensor (5 window factory or cam gear equipped), or ignition trigger output. 0-5 volt signal or low current 12v signal, negative coil high current trigger will damage IC and is not covered under warranty.See SIC Virtual Dashboard

    Supplementary ECU FEATURES:

    32 Bit Graphical Programming Package:
    To ensure that programming and tuning of the Supplementary ECU is as simple and pain free as possible, it has been developed as a software package that runs under 32-bit Windows programming that is both intuitive and packed full of features that power users want and need for flexibility. Each unit comes with programming software, which allows full monitoring of all sensory inputs, and allows full tuning capabilities.3 Dimensional 8 X 16 matrix Fuel Mapping:
    16RPM (X axis) points by 8 Manifold pressure (Y axis) forming an 8 X 16 matrix (128 points) allows very detailed programming of the fuel curve. The engine specific behavior can be adjusted as required to accommodate poor volumetric efficiency due to cam overlap, engine resonance, or other engine specific issues that can be attributed to a specific manifold pressure/RPM range. Many engines require little or no adjustment of the mapping parameters, while modified, high compression, or heavily cammed engines may need some work in the mapping, particularly at lower RPMs where manifold vacuum is poor or unstable.
    Last edited by klipseracer; 03-17-2013 at 05:26 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    So with our cars, would we want a controller that ramps based on boost, rpm, load, combination?

    Perhaps something like this?:

    http://www.034motorsport.com/supplem...-ecu-a-32.html
    That is the exact one used on Rabbitpushers car.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    That is the exact one used on Rabbitpushers car.
    Does it allow for sequential firing or just batch?

    What kind of fuel pump would be best in a case of desiring to drive a single injector?
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    It allows for sequential firing. Usually you would tap your system to get fuel for the auxiliary injectors. So a lpfp upgrade would be recommended.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    It allows for sequential firing. Usually you would tap your system to get fuel for the auxiliary injectors. So a lpfp upgrade would be recommended.
    I'm not familiar with our fuel system design so much, how far up do the LPFP lines go before it meets with the HPFP? I'd assume it goes right up to the engine and there must be a place we could put a Y onto that as long as the LPFP could keep pressure up? Outside of the controller, is there an option for external boost sensor as I think they internal sensor is only good for 2.5bar.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
    Option 1. Why half ass it? People will already be out thousands so price dousn't matter much
    The hardware costs aren't the outrageous part of Option 1. Let's just say a conservative estimate for the ProEFI Standalone, Custom Cast Manifold, 6 Port Injectors & all the Fuel Lines costs ~$5k. Labor just to have it installed & wired properly sets you back another $2k, so now you're at $7k. NOW you face the expensive part: tuning the ProEFI standalone for the N54. That's not just WOT tuning, that's also idle tuning, partial throttle & off throttle tuning. That alone will set you back another $5k, adding insult to injury is the fact that the car will only be able to be tuned by a ProEFI tuner/vendor. Luckily you're ProEFI vendors include a long list of very reputable shops: Jotech, Boost Logic, South Side Performance, Late Model Racecraft, D3 Performance Engineering, Saad Racing, Undercover Performance, Maximum PSI, Bradan/Bradan Group, Hennessy Performance, and last but not least, FFTEC (how pist would Shiv be to see a VTTS3 getting tuned for kill mode on the ProEFI right in his backyard).


    BUT you're "thousands of price" has easily passed $10k just to get a fueling solution for the Vargas Stage 3s (which on their own will add a couple more thousands). Is it probably the BEST option to go with that will maximize performance, absolutely. But assuming people start picking up 135/335's for around ~$20k to add VTTS3, people who want to go the ProEFI route are going to nearly double their initial investment.
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    The hardware costs aren't the outrageous part of Option 1. Let's just say a conservative estimate for the ProEFI Standalone, Custom Cast Manifold, 6 Port Injectors & all the Fuel Lines costs ~$5k. Labor just to have it installed & wired properly sets you back another $2k, so now you're at $7k. NOW you face the expensive part: tuning the ProEFI standalone for the N54. That's not just WOT tuning, that's also idle tuning, partial throttle & off throttle tuning. That alone will set you back another $5k, adding insult to injury is the fact that the car will only be able to be tuned by a ProEFI tuner/vendor. Luckily you're ProEFI vendors include a long list of very reputable shops: Jotech, Boost Logic, South Side Performance, Late Model Racecraft, D3 Performance Engineering, Saad Racing, Undercover Performance, Maximum PSI, Bradan/Bradan Group, Hennessy Performance, and last but not least, FFTEC (how pist would Shiv be to see a VTTS3 getting tuned for kill mode on the ProEFI right in his backyard).


    BUT you're "thousands of price" has easily passed $10k just to get a fueling solution for the Vargas Stage 3s (which on their own will add a couple more thousands). Is it probably the BEST option to go with that will maximize performance, absolutely. But assuming people start picking up 135/335's for around ~$20k to add VTTS3, people who want to go the ProEFI route are going to nearly double their initial investment.

    Right... Mostly, So hence my point. We need someone to buy this controller, Y the feed coming from the LPFP and put an injector into the chargepipe. Only problem with that is its before the throttle blade and there are fuel mixture issues at that point I'd think. Somebody make a spacer!
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    I say neither and vote for:

    Option 3: Commission a reputable company to create a drop-in replacement for the HPFP similar to what APR did for the VW/AUDI 2.0 TFSI engine.

    That way you won't have to worry about any of the other crap.
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    I say neither and vote for:

    Option 3: Commission a reputable company to create a drop-in replacement for the HPFP similar to what APR did for the VW/AUDI 2.0 TFSI engine.
    Let me know when you've done that, as I prefer that option. In the mean time, Somebody put a second freakin injector with a TB spacer:

    Click here to enlarge

    This one is for the N54, Needs tapped for an injector:

    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    The hardware costs aren't the outrageous part of Option 1. Let's just say a conservative estimate for the ProEFI Standalone, Custom Cast Manifold, 6 Port Injectors & all the Fuel Lines costs ~$5k. Labor just to have it installed & wired properly sets you back another $2k, so now you're at $7k. NOW you face the expensive part: tuning the ProEFI standalone for the N54. That's not just WOT tuning, that's also idle tuning, partial throttle & off throttle tuning. That alone will set you back another $5k, adding insult to injury is the fact that the car will only be able to be tuned by a ProEFI tuner/vendor. Luckily you're ProEFI vendors include a long list of very reputable shops: Jotech, Boost Logic, South Side Performance, Late Model Racecraft, D3 Performance Engineering, Saad Racing, Undercover Performance, Maximum PSI, Bradan/Bradan Group, Hennessy Performance, and last but not least, FFTEC (how pist would Shiv be to see a VTTS3 getting tuned for kill mode on the ProEFI right in his backyard).


    BUT you're "thousands of price" has easily passed $10k just to get a fueling solution for the Vargas Stage 3s (which on their own will add a couple more thousands). Is it probably the BEST option to go with that will maximize performance, absolutely. But assuming people start picking up 135/335's for around ~$20k to add VTTS3, people who want to go the ProEFI route are going to nearly double their initial investment.
    True. Didn't realize it was that much.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    I say neither and vote for:

    Option 3: Commission a reputable company to create a drop-in replacement for the HPFP similar to what APR did for the VW/AUDI 2.0 TFSI engine.

    That way you won't have to worry about any of the other crap.
    good luck with that... everyone knows that would be the best but it took the combined effort of the Audi and Mazda communities to get them riled up to do that. That is considering the fact that they reach their limit at a much lower power level than we do and the fact that we meth everything up to bandaid power the easy way...

    As far as secondary injection, I've discussed this and recommended it for ages. Control wouldn't be that easy but it makes more sense than anything right now...
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    The hardware costs aren't the outrageous part of Option 1. Let's just say a conservative estimate for the ProEFI Standalone, Custom Cast Manifold, 6 Port Injectors & all the Fuel Lines costs ~$5k. Labor just to have it installed & wired properly sets you back another $2k, so now you're at $7k. NOW you face the expensive part: tuning the ProEFI standalone for the N54. That's not just WOT tuning, that's also idle tuning, partial throttle & off throttle tuning. That alone will set you back another $5k, adding insult to injury is the fact that the car will only be able to be tuned by a ProEFI tuner/vendor. Luckily you're ProEFI vendors include a long list of very reputable shops: Jotech, Boost Logic, South Side Performance, Late Model Racecraft, D3 Performance Engineering, Saad Racing, Undercover Performance, Maximum PSI, Bradan/Bradan Group, Hennessy Performance, and last but not least, FFTEC (how pist would Shiv be to see a VTTS3 getting tuned for kill mode on the ProEFI right in his backyard).


    BUT you're "thousands of price" has easily passed $10k just to get a fueling solution for the Vargas Stage 3s (which on their own will add a couple more thousands). Is it probably the BEST option to go with that will maximize performance, absolutely. But assuming people start picking up 135/335's for around ~$20k to add VTTS3, people who want to go the ProEFI route are going to nearly double their initial investment.
    I stopped reading at Jotech... lol

    ...but the point is valid... with the costs considered, you could skip all of this and run meth for a fraction of a fraction of the price.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    I stopped reading at Jotech... lol

    ...but the point is valid... with the costs considered, you could skip all of this and run meth for a fraction of a fraction of the price.
    Which still has its limitations fueling wise, I think, what are we at now? 4 Injectors spread all over the place kind of proves that we're reaching already. I'd rather inject some E85 right into the manifold and keep meth as an option if it was really needed at that point. Most importantly, the fuel would be coming from the fuel tank. Given the option, I think true fuel would be my preferred choice over meth if I was somebody who didn't own a meth kit already. Meth would be way too abused to see 750-800+ from a 550ish fuel restriction.
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    This would be awesome if it were made for Fuel Injectors rather than Meth/N20

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    Throttle port injection lol. Reminds me of my friends Mighty max with a starion motor. It's funny but it works. @RabbitPusher ran supplementary injection for years. It's easy to setup, and there are controller boxes available already. I think he ran his off of a toggle switch. Not the most high tech setup, but it always worked. I honestly prefer option 1, but until Proefi is ready this could work for somebody who needs it. And we, RabbitPusher and I, could definitely help somebody locally who wanted to do this.
    Im getting stage 3's so I will be keeping in contact. PM me with idea's




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Which still has its limitations fueling wise, I think, what are we at now? 4 Injectors spread all over the place kind of proves that we're reaching already. I'd rather inject some E85 right into the manifold and keep meth as an option if it was really needed at that point. Most importantly, the fuel would be coming from the fuel tank. Given the option, I think true fuel would be my preferred choice over meth if I was somebody who didn't own a meth kit already. Meth would be way too abused to see 750-800+ from a 550ish fuel restriction.
    Almost as good as injecting meth right into the manifold in terms of latent heat and octane, much better than meth in terms of additional fueling benefits, simpler due to no tanks or leaking fittings, no cleaning, this is what I want. Twin injectors on a TBI setup would be cheap too. Although I think I'd prefer a spacer between the manifold and the head with 6 injectors. Set them up in two batch banks and pulse them in relation to average duty cycle of those banks in a non linear manner, that way you preserve most of your DI fueling benefits down low but get some added valve cleaning too, and no distribution issues.

    Terry could easily put together a peak and hold driver board. I've soldered a few together on my megasquirt back in the day (diyautotune.com has a wealth of knowledge on those boards). In fact I bet he could use that same circuit layout (it's open source) and just interface it with the JB4. But I'm not sure that this will ever get much attention.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    Im getting stage 3's so I will be keeping in contact. PM me with idea's
    The idea has already been posted. Hook up the box and set up the injectors. Pm me when you're ready to do it and we'll talk about it more.

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    personally i'm keen for the option 1 it just sound like a great potential package, and the best overall for my personal goals..

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I'm not familiar with our fuel system design so much, how far up do the LPFP lines go before it meets with the HPFP? I'd assume it goes right up to the engine and there must be a place we could put a Y onto that as long as the LPFP could keep pressure up? Outside of the controller, is there an option for external boost sensor as I think they internal sensor is only good for 2.5bar.
    riiight up to about 30cm back from the HPFP so yes.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    The hardware costs aren't the outrageous part of Option 1. Let's just say a conservative estimate for the ProEFI Standalone, Custom Cast Manifold, 6 Port Injectors & all the Fuel Lines costs ~$5k. Labor just to have it installed & wired properly sets you back another $2k, so now you're at $7k. NOW you face the expensive part: tuning the ProEFI standalone for the N54. That's not just WOT tuning, that's also idle tuning, partial throttle & off throttle tuning. That alone will set you back another $5k, adding insult to injury is the fact that the car will only be able to be tuned by a ProEFI tuner/vendor. Luckily you're ProEFI vendors include a long list of very reputable shops: Jotech, Boost Logic, South Side Performance, Late Model Racecraft, D3 Performance Engineering, Saad Racing, Undercover Performance, Maximum PSI, Bradan/Bradan Group, Hennessy Performance, and last but not least, FFTEC (how pist would Shiv be to see a VTTS3 getting tuned for kill mode on the ProEFI right in his backyard).


    BUT you're "thousands of price" has easily passed $10k just to get a fueling solution for the Vargas Stage 3s (which on their own will add a couple more thousands). Is it probably the BEST option to go with that will maximize performance, absolutely. But assuming people start picking up 135/335's for around ~$20k to add VTTS3, people who want to go the ProEFI route are going to nearly double their initial investment.
    $2k for install sounds a bit much assuming you go on $80/hr.. 25 hours? :/ but yes install *IS* an added cost
    plug in of new ECU/route cables depending on where you want it all installed (i'm guessing it will have to be long enough to run to the trunk?), running of new fuel lines, install of new manifold.

    bonus feature wise, i assume there'll be some sort of package for the N54 (especially with the 112) that will have exactly what you need at less than the price of ECU+addons, especially as a proper flex-fuel setup is a big card. everyone will want one of those or why bother lol.

    and from what i've gathered of the proEFI as it's programmed SPECIFICALLY for the N54 (as in why it's not just plug and play right now), idle, throttle conditions etc.. won't be like starting from scratch in other platforms - every other platform gets some base maps

    add to that it WILL be a 100% plug and play with all the factory N54 stuff..


    and after said quick google search (also on the proEFI forums), you'll find some vendors themselves stating there is software for the end user that isn't locked down for tuning anything, so i assume the same will be be the case for N54.

    so $5k for tuning is a bit on the ultra ultra high side too.

    a total of a solid $8-$10k assuming it's all pretty smooth could be realistic to expect though...



    for #2 though - the BRZ/FRS/GT86 all do it! well.. the have DI and PI, an for the turbo applications, they let the DI be done by the stock ECU and put a haltech on the upgraded PI injectors for more fuel Click here to enlarge

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