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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    KC had the cpe CATTED dps for those runs, just sayin'
    He posted AR Design Cattless DPs http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-335i-Timeslip-24793.html

  2. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BuraQ Click here to enlarge
    you're right, deleted my previous post...had someone else in mind Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    It's funny how people say you are having timing corrections without seeing your logs. BuraQ sends me his logs all the time. He rarely has any timing corrections. Something to remember is that there are compensation tables in the dme, and they are editable. A lot of timing a corrections you guys are seeing may be from getting into certain parts of those maps rather than actually knocking. Everybody knows this dme is overly sensitive. Maybe his compensations tables have been edited, which is common practice with other platforms that are overly sensitive. I don't a actually know. All I know is that he rarely gets corrections, and his knock voltage shows no sign of knock.

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    Vanos can play a very large role when it comes to timing corrections too..its not just boost and timing here...it would be if vanos didnt exist
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    It's funny how people say you are having timing corrections without seeing your logs. BuraQ sends me his logs all the time. He rarely has any timing corrections. Something to remember is that there are compensation tables in the dme, and they are editable. A lot of timing a corrections you guys are seeing may be from getting into certain parts of those maps rather than actually knocking. Everybody knows this dme is overly sensitive. Maybe his compensations tables have been edited, which is common practice with other platforms that are overly sensitive. I don't a actually know. All I know is that he rarely gets corrections, and his knock voltage shows no sign of knock.
    Do his logs actually show all 6 cylinders timing corrections? Or just actual timing?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BuraQ Click here to enlarge
    PTF's ProTune has a FBO 335is running cattless DPs. It was the first 335is to break 11s. http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-335i-Timeslip-24793.html

    Here is a slip for slips between his and mine with the same speed trap in the 11s

    Cobb PTF ProTune / DA 990 - 70° with 18 PSI

    Attachment 28292

    RENNtech / DA 579 @ 70° with 17 PSI
    Attachment 28296

    The Cobb Protune by PTF also hit a 12.0 ET @ 119 mph. Either way they did an excellent job on KC's 335is. It should be noted that when KC broke 11s he didnt have the windows rolled up.
    Wow. You got better times with less mods...DAMN congrats on #.
    Are you shifting at better points then he is?
    335xi Sedan 6AT || Weather(45-60°F)
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  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AltecBX Click here to enlarge
    Wow. You got better times with less mods...DAMN congrats on #.
    Are you shifting at better points then he is?
    Thanks...

    I do believe we are shifting differently as our tunes are tackling RPMs differently. Most of the 335is DCT logs I have seen their RPMs drop about 1k during each shift and mine drops about 500 rpms during each shift

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    BuraQ, what's with that post-shift AFR on bank 2 ? It seems quite lean and much different from the bank 1 AFR.
    E90 335i 6MT
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    The following was a random log which was done in Jan 2013 in 83°+ in the humid inferno of south Florida on regular 93 octane. This is the same log @lul_m3 made reference to in previous posts that was orignally posted on e90

    Attachment 28220

    What's with that post-shift AFR on bank 2 ? It seems quite lean and much different from the bank 1 AFR.
    E90 335i 6MT
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    Something to remember is that there are compensation tables in the dme, and they are editable. A lot of timing a corrections you guys are seeing may be from getting into certain parts of those maps rather than actually knocking. Everybody knows this dme is overly sensitive.
    Timing corrections due to other compensation tables or ECU logic are not shown as "timing corrections" if you log them. You can just see timing drops on the graphs without them being logged as corrections. So you can distinguish between "benign" and "knock-related" timing corrections.

    And I don't think it's healthy to believe the ECU is "overly-sensitive". Because it's not...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    Timing corrections due to other compensation tables or ECU logic are not shown as "timing corrections" if you log them. You can just see timing drops on the graphs without them being logged as corrections. So you can distinguish between "benign" and "knock-related" timing corrections.

    And I don't think it's healthy to believe the ECU is "overly-sensitive". Because it's not...
    It seems they are using the Bavarian Technic cable to generate these logs, which to my knowledge is not capable of seeing timing corrections, at least not for all 6 cylinders. They are making the assumption that the timing reductions are based off compensation tables, in reality they have no idea whats going on. @BuraQ, i would suggest sacrificial wine to the DME gods...
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    My honest opinion is you guys are used to seeing results from subpar tuners on this platform. So when a real tuner comes around you guys are surprised at the outcome. Look at @benzy89. Normal 270whp baseline and 460whp tuned by brenntuning. Real tuner, real results. Now BuraQ's car runs good and you claim not possible. Maybe since all of you guys are pro tooners, maybe you should tune your own cars instead of paying. Or maybe even open up your own tuning company since you guys are much better.

    Bring the negs

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Vanos can play a very large role when it comes to timing corrections too..its not just boost and timing here...it would be if vanos didnt exist
    Correct. Not sure if that's loggable with the bt, and I don't expect anybody here to understand how cam timing affects what you can do with ignition timing.

  14. #89
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    My honest opinion is you guys are used to seeing results from subpar tuners on this platform. So when a real tuner comes around you guys are surprised at the outcome. Look at @benzy89 . Normal 270whp baseline and 460whp tuned by brenntuning. Real tuner, real results. Now BuraQ's car runs good and you claim not possible. Maybe since all of you guys are pro tooners, maybe you should tune your own cars instead of paying. Or maybe even open up your own tuning company since you guys are much better.

    Bring the negs
    Brentuning seems like a great tuner, but i am speculative of his dyno reading a bit high, never said the numbers werent possible. I would just like to see the numbers backed up on an independent dyno or track times. My comments about Buraq's car are based on seeing his logs and my experience tuning my own car on Cobb, experience in the turbo honda community, and things i have read/learned from members of this forum.

    I think the issue comes down to what is considered to really "RUN GOOD" in the n54 community. We don't have a solid opinion of how bad timing corrections are, its not like we have members posting about popped motors every other day. At the end of the day, you wouldn't see me sign my name next to a tune that corrects timing on 93 octane on a 80* (read: Cold for florida) Florida day when pushing stock turbos outside of their efficiency range.
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  15. #90
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    My honest opinion is you guys are used to seeing results from subpar tuners on this platform. So when a real tuner comes around you guys are surprised at the outcome. Look at @benzy89 . Normal 270whp baseline and 460whp tuned by brenntuning. Real tuner, real results. Now BuraQ's car runs good and you claim not possible. Maybe since all of you guys are pro tooners, maybe you should tune your own cars instead of paying. Or maybe even open up your own tuning company since you guys are much better.

    Bring the negs

    I woundnt worry about it. The only people sayin BuraQs car isn't running good are people who havent seen it in person or actually seen the raw data of his logs.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Brentuning seems like a great tuner, but i am speculative of his dyno reading a bit high, never said the numbers werent possible. I would just like to see the numbers backed up on an independent dyno or track times. My comments about Buraq's car are based on seeing his logs and my experience tuning my own car on Cobb, experience in the turbo honda community, and things i have read/learned from members of this forum. I think the issue comes down to what is considered to really "RUN GOOD" in the n54 community. We don't have a solid opinion of how bad timing corrections are, its not like we have members posting about popped motors every other day. At the end of the day, you wouldn't see me sign my name next to a tune that corrects timing on 93 octane on a 80* (read: Cold for florida) Florida day when pushing stock turbos outside of their efficiency range.
    Repped for a solid response.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    I woundnt worry about it. The only people sayin BuraQs car isn't running good are people who havent seen it in person or actually seen the raw data of his logs.
    But it seems like the BT isn't logging as many important variables as a COBB AP would (multi-cylinder timing & timing corrections, VANOS timing, advance timing, boost levels & STFT/LTFTs). I'd recommend that at @BuraQ try to borrow someone's AP just to take some more in-depth logs and confirm that the car is running healthy.

    By looking at only one cylinder's activity and say the car is running fine because there's no corrections on cylinder 2, you have no idea if cylinders 4,5,6 all have corrections great than 3* (ie, timing corrections across adjacent cylinders is a clear sign that the tune is too aggressive). I haven't seen any reference to which specific cylinder you're logging, but it could also be a possibility you're logging the "quiet" cylinder that isn't displaying any timing corrections.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    But it seems like the BT isn't logging as many important variables as a COBB AP would (multi-cylinder timing & timing corrections, VANOS timing, advance timing, boost levels & STFT/LTFTs). I'd recommend that at @BuraQ try to borrow someone's AP just to take some more in-depth logs and confirm that the car is running healthy.

    By looking at only one cylinder's activity and say the car is running fine because there's no corrections on cylinder 2, you have no idea if cylinders 4,5,6 all have corrections great than 3* (ie, timing corrections across adjacent cylinders is a clear sign that the tune is too aggressive). I haven't seen any reference to which specific cylinder you're logging, but it could also be a possibility you're logging the "quiet" cylinder that isn't displaying any timing corrections.
    It's definitely the right thing to look into, but he won;t be able to do it with COBB AP since he is tune will be gone.
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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    It's definitely the right thing to look into, but he won;t be able to do it with COBB AP since he is tune will be gone.
    It's more than just boost & timing for a properly done tune. I don't think they can read the RT tune with the COBB AP =) You can only overwrite the DME with a BMW update only btw!

    Also, why need of all that mumbo jumbo of map switching, standard datalog (INCA/INPA will give you more info than just logging 1 cylinder!), meth, offroad use fuels, Cobb/BMS flash w/piggyback stacking, etc. If you can accomplish all this with a real properly done performance flash tune.

    It's so "primitive" how JB accomplish cel. delete, just increase boost, ign crank angle offset, extra wiring installation, still to day LIMP on dyno or track... that needs to spend 1/2 a day for support. I am sure Alpina, M Gmbh division & BMW Performance will spend alot of time doing support like just for their own tunes own...NOT.

    At, the end certain educated customers will know why.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by m54b25 Click here to enlarge
    It's more than just boost & timing for a properly done tune. I don't think they can read the RT tune with the COBB AP =) You can only overwrite the DME with a BMW update only btw!

    Also, why need of all that mumbo jumbo of map switching, standard datalog (INCA/INPA will give you more info than just logging 1 cylinder!), meth, offroad use fuels, Cobb/BMS flash w/piggyback stacking, etc. If you can accomplish all this with a real properly done performance flash tune.

    It's so "primitive" how JB accomplish cel. delete, just increase boost, ign crank angle offset, extra wiring installation... that needs to spend 1/2 a day for support. I am sure Alpina, M Gmbh division & BMW Performance will spend alot of time doing support like just for their own tunes own...NOT.

    At, the end certain educated customers will know why.
    That's what I meant when it comes to COBB AP logging his tune.

    I'm not trying to bash the renntech tune in anyway nor do I want to participate in that debate but in answer to a "real tune" I want to point out that the COBB AP tune does not need any sort of stacking or support to work properly. It's a full fledged flash tune as proven by the huge number of people who run it. Meth is to run even more aggressive tunes...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    That's what I meant when it comes to COBB AP logging his tune.

    I'm not trying to bash the renntech tune in anyway nor do I want to participate in that debate but in answer to a "real tune" I want to point out that the COBB AP tune does not need any sort of stacking or support to work properly. It's a full fledged flash tune as proven by the huge number of people who run it. Meth is to run even more aggressive tunes...
    Well, any right company will deploy a VALIDATED software & not use of BETA maps for customers to be a guinea pig for development. Of course, countless CAN datalog on test vehicles has been done before releasing any programs. Dyno, road course, benchmark tracks, etc are used to test. So if it's validated, no LIMP mode should be caused on the DME unless a true legitimate issue it's the cause of failure. And No, need to turn of any DME flags, like how other tuners does!

    Companies can sell tons of products at a reduced price... but it doesn't mean it's the best.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Do his logs actually show all 6 cylinders timing corrections? Or just actual timing?
    Being able to "see" all 6 cyl Ignition timing is part of Cobb's flash written to the DME to allow this.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by piele_bps Click here to enlarge
    The following was a random log which was done in Jan 2013 in 83°+ in the humid inferno of south Florida on regular 93 octane. This is the same log @lul_m3 made reference to in previous posts that was orignally posted on e90

    Attachment 28220

    What's with that post-shift AFR on bank 2 ? It seems quite lean and much different from the bank 1 AFR.
    You will find the same post-shift in the JB4 335is http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...795#post419795

    The difference is:

    I was running 93 on that log and the JB4 was running much higher octane

    The DME instantly corrected it and on JB4 it prolonged it - that only shows you one bank

    It was ran in much higher temp vs the JB4 335is in negative DA

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    It seems they are using the Bavarian Technic cable to generate these logs, which to my knowledge is not capable of seeing timing corrections, at least not for all 6 cylinders. They are making the assumption that the timing reductions are based off compensation tables, in reality they have no idea whats going on. @BuraQ , i would suggest sacrificial wine to the DME gods...
    If the BT tool is incapable of "seeing" timing corrections then how do you know there are "...some timing corrections...." (Your own words) from a BT Tool log ? In this case your are guilty of your own "assumption" allegation.

    No one here on this thread, except for RENNtech, knows how they are tuning the N54 platform. Boostaddict and dzenno suggested other methods that could affect timing corrections, in contrary to the superficial assumptions wavering to and from on this thread

    The BT Tool captures Status Knocking, Knock Signal Cyl 1 and 6 relative. These remain 0.00 ALL THE TIME under WOT. If the values here were to ever change then it would suggest that more than three cylinders "at the same time" under WOT or full load are having timing corrections to illustrate knock.

    It is pefectly normal on this platform to have timing corrections in multiple cylindar, seen in stock, so long as it does not occure with more than 3 cylindars making corrections at the same time

    Also the BT tool have Knock Voltage for each cylndar 1-6 monitoring for abnormal actvity

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    But it seems like the BT isn't logging as many important variables as a COBB AP would (multi-cylinder timing & timing corrections, VANOS timing, advance timing, boost levels & STFT/LTFTs). I'd recommend that at @BuraQ try to borrow someone's AP just to take some more in-depth logs and confirm that the car is running healthy.
    Here we go again with you, and having no clue whats going on. The BT Tool calls these by different discriptions, the Cobb AP stranslates it for those of you not aquainted with German/Europen lingo terms / metric units

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    ... I haven't seen any reference to which specific cylinder you're logging, but it could also be a possibility you're logging the "quiet" cylinder that isn't displaying any timing corrections.
    This is a perfect example of a person who has absolutely no experience with a Bavarian Technic Tool and a display of infamous conjecture.

    Conclusion: I have had the RENNtech for more than one year on my car and have beaten the piss out of it on track not to mention the amount street racing I have done.

    This car has been to the track more times in one year than most of you have done in a car's life time of owning it.

    It has been rigorously tested in Florida's extreme heat went and very well documented, and yet never a limp mode or missfire even on the orignal plugs @ 36k miles. Almost 300 launches and it still pulls like a freight.

    You can continue to make conjecture all you like in every means to find fault. In the end the product will speak for itself, and when I mean it will speak for itself it will be done very "loudly" in its accomplishments.
    Last edited by BuraQ; 03-22-2013 at 07:25 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BuraQ Click here to enlarge
    You can continue to make conjecture all you like in every means to find fault. In the end the product will speak for itself, and when I mean it will speak for itself it will be done very "loudly" in its accomplishments.
    You're absolutely right, I've never used a BT Tool because I have no need, I can log with my AccessPORT. But I'm not sure how the RENNtech tune has spoken so "loudly" when PTF utilizing COBB (I'll strictly focus on the flash tunes, so no JB4 cars) has two cars in the 11s as well, including a 135 with AT (which should be at a slight disadvantage with a 6AT instead of the DCT) that ran 11.76 @ 120. AND using your terms, that's not only quicker, but it's also faster.
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    BuraQ, I think one of the issues some of the guys are having is you were every bit as heartfelt & adamant about Dinan when that was your tune, intake etc. of choice as you are now about Renntech. Tends to blunt the overall effect of your position as a flavor of the month.

    Right now the product is not speaking “loudly” for itself its you speaking loudly on its behalf just like last time with Dinan. I am happy to see you break into the 11’s with a 335is but the reality is 135/335’s were into the mid 11’s back in 2009. Renntech has done very well with MB but still has some work to do with your car before anyone should be speaking loudly.

    While on the soap box, not directed at you, one thing I really find amusing is all the freeken world records the 135/335’s hold. World record with seats, world record with no back seat, world record with no passenger seat, world record with no back or passenger seat & so on. Really cheapens the whole “world record” concept into meaningless nonsense.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    You're absolutely right, I've never used a BT Tool because I have no need, I can log with my AccessPORT. But I'm not sure how the RENNtech tune has spoken so "loudly" when PTF utilizing COBB (I'll strictly focus on the flash tunes, so no JB4 cars) has two cars in the 11s as well, including a 135 with AT (which should be at a slight disadvantage with a 6AT instead of the DCT) that ran 11.76 @ 120. AND using your terms, that's not only quicker, but it's also faster.
    This has nothing to do with Cobb or PTF. I am a supporter of Cobb and PTF all the way. This debate was not flared up by flash vs flash it was induced by piggyback vs flash. My firm belief was a "properly" flashed and turbo efficient N54 can break 11s with No Meth, No Drag Radials, No Weight Reduction ie complete street trim that is 50 State emmission legal.

    The cars you quoted do not fit this profile to my knowledge of the cars I know about.

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