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  1. #176
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rooringhusky Click here to enlarge
    I just realized there is a "Report Post" button on e90post...I have a feeling Shiv uses this button a little too much the way posts get deleted or edited in the threads he participates in...
    That happens there a lot, have seen my posts disappear. In this case it was a good editing job since it left Vargas's thread intact as it was intended to be without the hijack.
    Kevin
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  2. #177
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I'm not getting some of the fuel system comments. My understanding is that low pressure was solid, steady and rail pressure was short of target at X HP. Some thoughts:
    1. With solid low pressure, HPFP is getting all the fuel it needs. Thus any changes to low pressure line/pressure won't have an effect on volume.
    2. The HPFP is positive displacement. Fuel is being pushed into the pumping chamber based on pressure differential and since #1 we can't increase this volume.
    3. This specific HPFP cannot support the needed volume at the requested pressure.
    4. Lowing rail pressure should increase flow slightly, but you'd have to be careful with injector IDC.

    Try a new pump for the short term. I'd like to see the fuel pressure logs.
    With a higher low pressure more fuel is pushed faster in to the HPFP cavity, which has a relatively narrow opening compared to the fuel line feeding it, effectively augmenting its capacity.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  3. #178
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    Great numbers! Congrats to PTF and Vargas.

  4. #179
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    PS. On the whole e90post bull$#@! fest. The twins are using vacuum based wastegates and thus the spool up is going to be in part a function of whatever was programmed by the tuner. With a JB4 ISO for example we'd hold the wastegates at 100% duty cycle by default during spool but that may or may not be how D has their flash programmed currently.

    And in my opinion whomever thinks fuel used, air/fuel ratio, advance, and cam timing don't have an effect on spool speed are fooling themselves. Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-16-2013 at 06:20 PM.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  5. #180
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    http://www.the370z.com/drivetrain-en...ml#post2216287

    These turbos are great. My old car responds very well to them too
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport - SOLD
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    Looking for a n54 project e90/e82

  6. #181
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    Who ever thought the guy from fantasy factory with the blurred face would take the n54 community by storm! Good work to Tony and Dzenno. Can't wait to see the potential of this kit.
    JB4 G5 ISO+BMS DCI+VRSF DPs

  7. #182
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    PS. On the whole e90post bull$#@! fest. The twins are using vacuum based wastegates and thus the spool up is going to be in part a function of whatever was programmed by the tuner. With a JB4 ISO for example we'd hold the wastegates at 100% duty cycle by default during spool but that may or may not be how D has their flash programmed currently.

    And in my opinion whomever thinks fuel used, air/fuel ratio, advance, and cam timing don't have an effect on spool speed are fooling themselves. Click here to enlarge
    I actually went over there for once today, and to my dismay missed the fun.

    What you said there is incredibly true. Turbo spool is effected by not only by exhaust "airmass" but also volume, pressure and velocity, all very related to fuel, timing, afr, egt, head flow, scavenging, etc etc. If someone doesn't understand that they missed some key facts in engineering school.

  8. #183
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    More fun shiv started a new thread now....LOL

    Single vs. Twin Turbo Spool-up Comparison

    Hi guys,
    First of all, I'd like to congradulate Vargas Turbos for their work on the Stg3 kit. I know how much time and effort it takes to do something like that. That being said, I do want to clear up a little bit of misinformation regarding thispost that Tony made regarding boost response difference between our single turbo set-up and their twin GT turbo set-up. The said that their big twins offer "identical" low end toque up to 4250rpm. But in the graph he posted, he compared a 6MT to a 6AT and a 5th gear run to a 4th gear run. With both variables having a big effect on low end torque when tested on an inertial dynamometer (Dynojet). While we have plenty of customer single turbo 6MTs dyno results, we rarely dyno the cars (with stock final drives) in 5th gear since the Dynojet we use is only rated up to 155mph. However, I did find one run file from Melissa's 62mm single turbo car that was tested in 5th gear just to illustrate the positive effects it has on turbo spool-up. Her original dyno thread can be found here.

    I rescaled both results (Vargas Stg3 Twins and Melissa's 62mm Single) to be similar and superimposed them below to illustrate low end torque/spool up differences when gear and transmission are kept equal. Please note that this is only a comparison for spool-up, NOT power since Melissa's car was tested @ 22-23psi on E85+meth while the Vargas Stg3 car was tested @ 24-25psi on 91oct. Since fuel/tune has little to no effect on turbo spool-up, that is all we are comparing so please ignore the results from 4250rpm and up:

    Click here to enlarge
    Green is VFF 62mm Single. Red/Blue is Vargas Stg3.

    At this time, this is as apples/apples as we can get. Keep in mind that we are comparing the results taken from two different dynos on two different days. I personally did not want to compare the two kits at this time since Vargas is still early in the tuning process. But I felt I had to clear up a little bit of unintentional misinformation.

    These are exciting times for the n54 and we should all be happy that there are many options to fit individual needs.

    Cheers,
    shiv

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by biz77 Click here to enlarge
    A highly oxygenated fuel, like E85, most certainly has an effect on boost onset.

    Boost response/spool-up between our single turbo cars running e85 and gasoline is virtually identical. I can provide dyno graphs comparing Melissa's 4th gear results to others running gasoline if people want to see them. The main advantage afforded by running E85 is how much advance you can run once peak cylinder pressure is achieved. This is not very relevant during spool-up.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Beemw335 Click here to enlarge
    It should be pointed out that you've had a year to perfect your kit, they've only had theirs out for a week.
    Only time will tell which one is the better "daily driver" kit.

    No doubt. Once again, Tony made this comparison first. I'm merely making the same comparison using more valid and comparable data.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AltecBX Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    Why do you think they're TT drops at 4750-5k and yours stays put?

    That's a question best left to him. I'm just comparing spool-up.

    And to everyone else, please do not turn this into a pissing match. The twins are the Vargas Stg3 car are sized to make 850+whp. So it's understandable that they will not spool-up as quickly as a single sized to only make 700whp.

    Shiv
    PERFORMANCE: Cobb AP \ JB4 \ DCI \ AR Downpipes \ CX FMIC \ ER Chargepipe \ Synapse BOV \ KW V2 \ Muffler Delete \ CDV \ ZHP Shifter \ Cyba Scoops
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  9. #184
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rooringhusky Click here to enlarge


    And to everyone else, please do not turn this into a pissing match. The twins are the Vargas Stg3 car are sized to make 850+whp. So it's understandable that they will not spool-up as quickly as a single sized to only make 700whp.

    Shiv
    I found this interesting. At least he realizes his turbo cant compete on the top end unless he slaps on a bigger snail.
    Click here to enlarge

  10. #185
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    Wait till meth, e85, and 93 Oct numbers come out....
    Click here to enlarge
    ESS 6XX kit

  11. #186
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by treadlol Click here to enlarge
    Who ever thought the guy from fantasy factory with the blurred face would take the n54 community by storm! Good work to Tony and Dzenno. Can't wait to see the potential of this kit.
    Not just a pretty blurred face.lol

  12. #187
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmw335iguy Click here to enlarge
    How much boost can these turbos take? If your running 24-25psi already on 91 is there still plenty of head room once you start testing with e85/meth? I know timing was keep low during the 91 tune, just curious how much more you can crank these baby's up to.
    These turbos are still in their efficiency range at 30 PSI. As far as the 91 tune the guys at PTF can answer that. My understanding is, they chose a lot of boost and basically no timing at all to get the great numbers on 91. Timing is usually what hurts motors not boost. So now with the ultra conservative low timing maps in place for high numbers on low octane. We just start adding timing and boost for the higher fuels. Obviously laymans terms and the tuners can elaborate more on the subject. I will say for one of the last runs for fun we turned on the meth, did not touch the map, I lifted early and we still made 602 doing nothing else. But there is so much more there, we just left it for another day.

  13. #188
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    PS. On the whole e90post bull$#@! fest. The twins are using vacuum based wastegates and thus the spool up is going to be in part a function of whatever was programmed by the tuner. With a JB4 ISO for example we'd hold the wastegates at 100% duty cycle by default during spool but that may or may not be how D has their flash programmed currently.

    And in my opinion whomever thinks fuel used, air/fuel ratio, advance, and cam timing don't have an effect on spool speed are fooling themselves. Click here to enlarge
    Terry, you are more correct then you know on these vacuum gates. I will leave it for D to really get into, but when we started tuning. The DME was expecting stock spool and would fight us tooth and nail to open the gates EARLY. Thus dropping boost. D wrangled it into place and the spool became brilliant. I made mention on the other site, that since we are using ultra low timing and very conservative tune to keep things safe on the 91 map, we could only work on spool so much. It was denied over there that tuning can help spool by leaps and bounds. Bottom line is, we are not near done with tuning for spool. We were seeing what we could get on 91 and honestly, we feel there is still more left in it on that fuel. I apologize for getting into the banter over there though. To many of your dismay I actually do respect Shiv and what he has done for the platform. He has moved it along quite a bit.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    First off these are GREAT numbers. They are very nice and there is obviously ALOT of room to grow from here. As many of us know who come from the platforms outside this one these types of setups finally put us up where we belong... closer to being alongside everyone else.



    As for this comment, not sure what you mean. We can send shuttles to space, we can cure terminal illness in medicine, yet RB said we can not bolt other than factory framed turbos to an N54? Odd. I think what you are confusing is what was said as simply not worth it (to me), therefore I could not endorse them personally. As an installer, mechanic, designer, and a front liner so to speak; my thoughts were that a setup like this it is like mashing 100lbs of potatoes into a 50lb sack. Can it be done? Sure. Is there a solution that could offer the same or similar performance with better fitment, a cleaner look, for less cost? Absolutely. There are pros and cons to everything, and to each their own how they wish to weigh each factor. Way back when (before Tony even presented himself) we had discussions on doing this and had discovered that this line of Garrets were very short turbos, which definitely helped mitigate some of the potato mashing. I give Tony mad props as he did a MAGNIFICENT job with this project. I do believe he did the best that can be done with the design and in my eyes once he gets a good induction on these turbos for the production round it will be a very complete and a very elegant kit which with further tuning will be an amazing street car.

    Back on topic, I sincerely send out congrats to Vargas, and looking forward to further advancements. Without setups like this the platform would definitely remain stagnant as we have known it for years now, so this is an excellent opportunity for more pioneers to jump in there and figure out how to push things along even further much like those running ST kits. With that all respects are given.

    Rob
    RB, I appreciate the kind words. We worked long and hard on this project. Put a lot of nights and weekends into it, and thats before the tuning. For the first dyno day we are beyond pleased and know there is a lot left in there. Thanks again

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory Click here to enlarge
    Geez Shiv is in full whine mode trying to step on Vargas's results thread on the other site. He would have been better served just keeping is mouth shut. Really like the part about dumping the fuel tanks & verifying a 91 octane fill. Isn't there are story floating around about someone getting caught with a hidden fuel bladder?
    Shiv shows his true colors again...I figured for awhile it was just how he was with Terry but he's just a grade A douche with anyone that threatens his bread and butter.

    Tony, once you've test fitted this on a 335xi you can sign me up for a set of stage 3s. I've been lusting after a 4 door, AWD car that can hit 130mph traps, even if I do have to soft launch it because of the drivetrain Click here to enlarge

  16. #191
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Terry, you are more correct then you know on these vacuum gates. I will leave it for D to really get into, but when we started tuning. The DME was expecting stock spool and would fight us tooth and nail to open the gates EARLY. Thus dropping boost. D wrangled it into place and the spool became brilliant. I made mention on the other site, that since we are using ultra low timing and very conservative tune to keep things safe on the 91 map, we could only work on spool so much. It was denied over there that tuning can help spool by leaps and bounds. Bottom line is, we are not near done with tuning for spool. We were seeing what we could get on 91 and honestly, we feel there is still more left in it on that fuel. I apologize for getting into the banter over there though. To many of your dismay I actually do respect Shiv and what he has done for the platform. He has moved it along quite a bit.
    Yes, that is part of the reason I wanted you guys to start with isolated boost control. Rather than spending 90% of the time on boost you spend only 10% of the time on boost and the rest on fine tuning. But seems like D has a handle on it now so take it as far as you can. And once I get a set going I'll work my magic on this end with the JB4. I asked Cobb a few weeks ago to redo our account so any "maps" we make can be opened by anyone (they have it set to lock by default) and I'll have no issues posting whatever I come up with in case the flash only guys can find some of it useful.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  17. #192
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Yes, that is part of the reason I wanted you guys to start with isolated boost control. Rather than spending 90% of the time on boost you spend only 10% of the time on boost and the rest on fine tuning. But seems like D has a handle on it now so take it as far as you can. And once I get a set going I'll work my magic on this end. I've asked Cobb to redo our account so any "maps" we make can be opened by anyone (they have it set to lock by default) and I'll have no issues posting whatever I come up with in case the flash only guys can find some of it useful.
    Thats awesome man, we appreciate it. I am gonna get you a kit as soon as I can, you are number 2. We did it this way because we really wanted to see how a set of aftermarket turbos with vacuum gates would do with full boost control by the DME and while a pain at first. Now that D got it figured out. Give the DME a couple runs to adapt after making a change and literally in a very sensitive datalog grapher the boost ramps straight up and looks like this to redline_________________________
    Its pretty amazing how well it can hold the boost once we got it there.

  18. #193
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Sure for glory runs it's OK. But they are limited by fuel currently so I think they need to address that before considering raising boost higher. At the very least with more octane they could run more advance which should dramatically improve things. I have not seen the current curves posted, no timing data, no solid afr data, no EGT data, etc. They may be keeping much of the data under wraps as its all a work in progress which I understand. But ultimately without all the data in my fingertips it's hard to suggest where they go next. Click here to enlarge
    Agreed. They may be limited on fuel, but there should be substantial room to ramp up the timing and make quite a bit more. Even with this being the limit for fuel, it is a very high limit. How many cars can you name with THIS kind of fuel ceiling with just a simple fuel pump upgrade; with regards to the stock power output? Not many.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Nah, just go to ebaymotors, search for low mileage New M5/M6 Pumpkin from a wreck (Should be around $599). If you're handy with a wrench, bingo just swap in in for a <$600 3.65 LSD upgrade.
    they bolt straight on 100%? that's... pretty tempting? i mean.. 3.65 is a bit short though unless you want to do ridiculous skids haha

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    Twice the RWHP from these changes is hugely impressive.
    Excellent work.
    What a machine...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory Click here to enlarge
    Geez Shiv is in full whine mode trying to step on Vargas's results thread on the other site. He would have been better served just keeping is mouth shut. Really like the part about dumping the fuel tanks & verifying a 91 octane fill. Isn't there are story floating around about someone getting caught with a hidden fuel bladder?
    i missed it... could you recap it for me by any chance? Click here to enlarge

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    2JZ anyone..? Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    These turbos are still in their efficiency range at 30 PSI. As far as the 91 tune the guys at PTF can answer that. My understanding is, they chose a lot of boost and basically no timing at all to get the great numbers on 91. Timing is usually what hurts motors not boost. So now with the ultra conservative low timing maps in place for high numbers on low octane. We just start adding timing and boost for the higher fuels. Obviously laymans terms and the tuners can elaborate more on the subject. I will say for one of the last runs for fun we turned on the meth, did not touch the map, I lifted early and we still made 602 doing nothing else. But there is so much more there, we just left it for another day.
    Glad my meth kit is being put too good use! That's crazy by just turning meth on and not making any changes to the map you were able to pick up 30hp AND you let off early. Hopefully when Jake comes out in 3 weeks I'll be able to stop by the dyno Click here to enlarge
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    damn e90post deleting my comments on shiv's comparison thread
    -__-

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Terry, you are more correct then you know on these vacuum gates. I will leave it for D to really get into, but when we started tuning. The DME was expecting stock spool and would fight us tooth and nail to open the gates EARLY. Thus dropping boost. D wrangled it into place and the spool became brilliant. I made mention on the other site, that since we are using ultra low timing and very conservative tune to keep things safe on the 91 map, we could only work on spool so much. It was denied over there that tuning can help spool by leaps and bounds. Bottom line is, we are not near done with tuning for spool. We were seeing what we could get on 91 and honestly, we feel there is still more left in it on that fuel. I apologize for getting into the banter over there though. To many of your dismay I actually do respect Shiv and what he has done for the platform. He has moved it along quite a bit.
    it's logical that tuning can?

    more low down timing = bigger bang = better spool

    hurrdurr to those who say otherwise?

    ED: i think shiv could be a little scared of the pricing on these turbos for similar spool and better potential power Click here to enlarge

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