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  1. #226
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    With a higher low pressure more fuel is pushed faster in to the HPFP cavity, which has a relatively narrow opening compared to the fuel line feeding it, effectively augmenting its capacity.
    Increasing pressure will increase flow, but thats not the issue here evident in the steady LP (depending how the actual logs look). IMO, first action is new pump and/or potentially lowering rail pressure by a 1/4 to 1/3. Let's see just the pressure logs with rpm DZ.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Increasing pressure will increase flow, but thats not the issue here evident in the steady LP (depending how the actual logs look). IMO, first action is new pump and/or potentially lowering rail pressure by a 1/4 to 1/3. Let's see just the pressure logs with rpm DZ.
    I think you're confused. We want to increase pressure at the high pressure pump inlet to more efficiently fill it's cavity, so that it can in turn provide a higher volume of high pressure fuel out.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I think you're confused. We want to increase pressure at the high pressure pump inlet to more efficiently fill it's cavity, so that it can in turn provide a higher volume of high pressure fuel out.
    If the HPFP needed more fuel it should show in a pressure drop on the LP side. As long as the pumping cavity is full, thats all that matters...which seems to be the case with steady LP. Trying to "push" fuel with pressure won't help, cause flow pontential is Xcfm per rpm/rail pressure. Anyway, I'm no engineer though.

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    I think that the single turbo spools faster than the twin-turbo, for these two particular setups. The single turbo is fed by 3 liters of exhaust flow while each of the twins is fed by 1.5 liters of exhaust flow and the combined flow of the twin-turbos is higher than the single. Basically the twin-turbo setup tested here is largely oversized for a nice balance, it's made for outright power (I suppose this isn't a bad thing for most but it is for those who seek "balance" more than power).


    My opinion is that using larger turbos compromise the trademark low-end torque of the N54 engine. The 10.2:1 compression ratio of this engine does not allow timing advance to be raised too much at lower RPMs (as I found out by playing with ATR on RBs), and the turbos do not provide the necessary pressure. So the low-end becomes weak. Even with RBs. I would say that's why Alpina chose a lower compression ratio for the N54 engine that they used in the previous B3 car.


    Some solutions that I would see:


    - Tune and use the "Timing (Spool)" map of the ECU (which is by default disabled in Cobb maps)
    - Choose the turbos for the exact final power target - there is technical documentation available on this
    - A twin-scroll single-turbo setup (this would be the most "correct" and also the most cost-effective solution, why hasn't this been attempted until now ? I read HPF is working on this)
    - Smaller turbos for the bi-turbo setup

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    We were heat soaking pretty bad, and at that point running up against the HPFP limit. We ran the meth for 1 run, iat's plummeted and fuel trims went -20 DME still has some control to keep things safe, it saw more fuel and cooler charge and responded with some extra power, trust me I told the people there this is not going to add any power, we just want to see if it helps with the fuel issues. Ran it up lifted at 5900 looked up and was like wtf. I'll post the graph when I get home. Just kinda let us know how much more is in there with a few small changes. LM, that's really my only reasoning as to why because it made no sense to me either. Extra fuel when you are getting close to a ceiling, and a cooler intake charge go a long way.
    I know i speak for quite a few who have zero interest in running meth in our cars for the added hassle and variables. I would personally much rather run e85. Do you plan on putting together a straight e85 package with no meth, or some variant thereof? e85>pump+meth for sure, really hoping to see this route taken with this.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    If the HPFP needed more fuel it should show in a pressure drop on the LP side. As long as the pumping cavity is full, thats all that matters...which seems to be the case with steady LP. Trying to "push" fuel with pressure won't help, cause flow pontential is Xcfm per rpm/rail pressure. Anyway, I'm no engineer though.
    This is just a theory at the moment. But, here is a diagram of the high pressure pump. #6 is the low pressure inlet. Fuel is then regulated by a control valve (which, is 100% open when high pressure is under target), through a check valve, in to the fuel chamber where it is compressed up to 2000psi+.

    I think what is limiting the pump output is the diameter of its internal low pressure passages in to the fuel chamber. At 70psi they can flow a certain amount. We've found if pressure drops to 50psi, the pump output drops. Presumably because a lower volume of fuel can make it in to the fuel chamber. So it stands to reason that upping that low pressure to 100psi will increase pump output.

    Consistent with the theory is that Tony says he is (inadvertently) running 80-90psi low pressure currently, and has a dyno showing more torque than I've never seen the stock pump supply.
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  7. #232
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    I think that the single turbo spools faster than the twin-turbo, for these two particular setups. The single turbo is fed by 3 liters of exhaust flow while each of the twins is fed by 1.5 liters of exhaust flow and the combined flow of the twin-turbos is higher than the single. Basically the twin-turbo setup tested here is largely oversized for a nice balance, it's made for outright power (I suppose this isn't a bad thing for most but it is for those who seek "balance" more than power).


    My opinion is that using larger turbos compromise the trademark low-end torque of the N54 engine. The 10.2:1 compression ratio of this engine does not allow timing advance to be raised too much at lower RPMs (as I found out by playing with ATR on RBs), and the turbos do not provide the necessary pressure. So the low-end becomes weak. Even with RBs. I would say that's why Alpina chose a lower compression ratio for the N54 engine that they used in the previous B3 car.


    Some solutions that I would see:


    - Tune and use the "Timing (Spool)" map of the ECU (which is by default disabled in Cobb maps)
    - Choose the turbos for the exact final power target - there is technical documentation available on this
    - A twin-scroll single-turbo setup (this would be the most "correct" and also the most cost-effective solution, why hasn't this been attempted until now ? I read HPF is working on this)
    - Smaller turbos for the bi-turbo setup
    The reason the single seems to spool "faster" is because its max airflow is around 650whp, These are the largest twins available from VTT, they are capable of pushing 850whp, they have been "detuned" because of the 91 oct. Fuel that was used.

    If you want more low end torque you can choose one of the smaller twin options and have even faster spool!




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    These are the largest twins available from VTT,
    Pretty sure there is one size larger that he is offering which will present a 950 potential.
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  9. #234
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Pretty sure there is one size larger that he is offering which will present a 950 potential.
    I was un-aware of this. Thanks!




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    I was un-aware of this. Thanks!
    You've already quoted me on it but I'm pretty sure Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    You've already quoted me on it but I'm pretty sure Click here to enlarge
    I thought these were the largest he was offering, I'm not sure why I thought that.

    These were the GTX2863R's right?




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    I thought these were the largest he was offering, I'm not sure why I thought that.

    These were the GTX2863R's right?
    Yes, these are 63R's. You were thinking that probably because these are way too big for most of us already. However, you could plug in a pair of GTX2867R as well for 950hp.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    Yes, these are 63R's. You were thinking that probably because these are way too big for most of us already. However, you could plug in a pair of GTX2867R as well for 950hp.
    Good to know! +1 rep for you! lol




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    Good to know! +1 rep for you! lol
    So I'm not crazy... Today. Now, it looks like we await ProEFI and the port injection, which I've been advocating for years from the piggies with batch fire injection. Even one injector somewhere around the TB with a spacer of some kind could do wonders. Potentially difficult to tune however. At this point, i think buying a spacer and some fueling lines would be a simpler solution than dancing around this wacky HPFP that seems to never be solved. Also easier than buying a brand new manifold and the whole ProEFI unit which is going to be costly. In fact I think I'm going to make a thread about it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    This is just a theory at the moment. But, here is a diagram of the high pressure pump. #6 is the low pressure inlet. Fuel is then regulated by a control valve (which, is 100% open when high pressure is under target), through a check valve, in to the fuel chamber where it is compressed up to 2000psi+.

    I think what is limiting the pump output is the diameter of its internal low pressure passages in to the fuel chamber. At 70psi they can flow a certain amount. We've found if pressure drops to 50psi, the pump output drops. Presumably because a lower volume of fuel can make it in to the fuel chamber. So it stands to reason that upping that low pressure to 100psi will increase pump output.

    Consistent with the theory is that Tony says he is (inadvertently) running 80-90psi low pressure currently, and has a dyno showing more torque than I've never seen the stock pump supply.
    The diagram is not so easy for me to understand. But simply fuel enters chamber when there's a differential (piston downward position) and displaced into the rail (piston upward). Check valves keep the fuel flowing in 1 direction. Large swings in pressure could point to a flow issue, not pressure. Reducing the restrictions would help flow of course, but no need and no advantage in increasing pressure setpoint. A fluid dynamics person could easily add some helpful insight.

    It would be fairly simple to increase LP though as an experiment.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    The diagram is not so easy for me to understand. But simply fuel enters chamber when there's a differential (piston downward position) and displaced into the rail (piston upward). Check valves keep the fuel flowing in 1 direction. Large swings in pressure could point to a flow issue, not pressure. Reducing the restrictions would help flow of course, but no need and no advantage in increasing pressure setpoint. A fluid dynamics person could easily add some helpful insight.

    It would be fairly simple to increase LP though as an experiment.
    The low fuel sensor is located before the pump assembly so it won't see much of a pressure swing. A better way for you to think of it might be if you could imagine the low fuel pressure sensor located inside the fuel chamber instead. In that scenario you would see a big pressure drop on the low pressure side. The idea behind raising low pressure above the factory levels is to allow more fuel to flow through the pump assembly in to the fuel chamber. Remember the passages are fixed so the only way to get more fuel through those fixed openings is to push it in at a higher fuel pressure. Or to open the pump and port them out. The latter would be ideal but until someone offers that our options are limited.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Let's see just the pressure logs with rpm DZ.
    Given you ever so sneakly wrote PMs directly to Tony about me never being able to do this I doubt I'd like to provide you with data on request like this anymore. To do that without even giving the courtesy and waiting for some preliminary results is/was very low.

    Going forward, I'm sorry, but you'll just have to sign a cheque for one of these and get your own data for discussion purposes. I won't entertain your keyboard battles/curiosity further. Hope you understand.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 03-17-2013 at 09:06 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    I think that the single turbo spools faster than the twin-turbo, for these two particular setups. The single turbo is fed by 3 liters of exhaust flow while each of the twins is fed by 1.5 liters of exhaust flow and the combined flow of the twin-turbos is higher than the single. Basically the twin-turbo setup tested here is largely oversized for a nice balance, it's made for outright power (I suppose this isn't a bad thing for most but it is for those who seek "balance" more than power).


    My opinion is that using larger turbos compromise the trademark low-end torque of the N54 engine. The 10.2:1 compression ratio of this engine does not allow timing advance to be raised too much at lower RPMs (as I found out by playing with ATR on RBs), and the turbos do not provide the necessary pressure. So the low-end becomes weak. Even with RBs. I would say that's why Alpina chose a lower compression ratio for the N54 engine that they used in the previous B3 car.


    Some solutions that I would see:


    - Tune and use the "Timing (Spool)" map of the ECU (which is by default disabled in Cobb maps)
    This table isn't disabled and is actually being used all the time by us.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    - Choose the turbos for the exact final power target - there is technical documentation available on this
    This goes against your reasoning above on spool. The initial comment was flawed in its approach to explanation/reasoning as it compares differently flowing setups. Spool just comes down to volume of the exhaust manifold runners, heat and pre-turbine restriction. Yes, tuning certain things will certainly help in all situations but those three are key and make the most impact to spool.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    - A twin-scroll single-turbo setup (this would be the most "correct" and also the most cost-effective solution, why hasn't this been attempted until now ? I read HPF is working on this)
    This is also a bit flawed as its discussing "correctness". There's simply no such thing as "correct". There's exhaust restriction/design and there's top end flow potential. Let's leave twin scroll discussions until we see them in action though and get some data. They're coming soon too.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    - Smaller turbos for the bi-turbo setup
    That is an option for everyone including stock frame hybrid setups. Its all a matter of what power band your butt prefers at the end of the day and what you like to use your car for (i.e. individual hp/tq curve goals).
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    You were thinking that probably because these are way too big for most of us already.
    Hey, hey, hay hay. Speak for yourself. I want big, usable power. This isn't my DD, so I want to be in KILL MODE 24x7 Click here to enlarge

    I don't bother with the stickers as there is no kill mode on them, lol.
    Change is constant

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Here is the graph overlay from the one meth run. I literally turned the system on, and did a run. Nothing else, I lifted at like 5600 cause we were just testing IAT reaction and fuel recovery. Needless to say, the results were very interesting. We have a lot left in the 91 tune if we just get the fuel as you can see.
    In my humble an inexperienced opinion, a comparison like that, tells me that boost was too high, and timing was still being pulled.
    If simple octane and.cooling bumped and.smoothed power like that, i woukd think we woukd have to be a bit more conservative.
    Now.before I get labelled a troll by real trolls, don't take the above as jab. If anything, ut shows justhow much power is left on the table. Im really excited for the development of this.

    Can someone with more tangible tuning.experience debunk my thought process?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    In my humble an inexperienced opinion, a comparison like that, tells me that boost was too high, and timing was still being pulled.
    If simple octane and.cooling bumped and.smoothed power like that, i woukd think we woukd have to be a bit more conservative.
    Now.before I get labelled a troll by real trolls, don't take the above as jab. If anything, ut shows justhow much power is left on the table. Im really excited for the development of this.

    Can someone with more tangible tuning.experience debunk my thought process?
    I think the understanding is that this was an all out 91 pump run... Safe... who knows? Did it prove a point? Well, yes.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    I think the understanding is that this was an all out 91 pump run... Safe... who knows? Did it prove a point? Well, yes.
    I could.understand that. I applaud them.for giving us what we aksed.for.
    Understandably, NOONE is or should run just 91 pisswater with these, that would be dumb, Hell, look at what 91/meth did for it. A proper meth failsafe and thats sick DD power. 93+meth really intrigues me, as that's what I would be running, as would most people. 600+ on pump meth would.be crazy, not to mention E85..
    .

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    I could.understand that. I applaud them.for giving us what we aksed.for.
    Understandably, NOONE is or should run just 91 pisswater with these, that would be dumb, Hell, look at what 91/meth did for it. A proper meth failsafe and thats sick DD power. 93+meth really intrigues me, as that's what I would be running, as would most people. 600+ on pump meth would.be crazy, not to mention E85..
    .
    Weird how that's exactly the opposite of what you was arguing a couple a couple weeks ago when I said 93 + meth was what I was interested in seeing. Ohh and the DME pulls timing in response to CATs without it being corrections, you can easily lose several degrees of timing advance in response to CATs and not have a single correction. That's how the DME can compensate for a fairly aggressive tune and it still be safe in hot weather.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    This is just a theory at the moment. But, here is a diagram of the high pressure pump. #6 is the low pressure inlet. Fuel is then regulated by a control valve (which, is 100% open when high pressure is under target), through a check valve, in to the fuel chamber where it is compressed up to 2000psi+.

    I think what is limiting the pump output is the diameter of its internal low pressure passages in to the fuel chamber. At 70psi they can flow a certain amount. We've found if pressure drops to 50psi, the pump output drops. Presumably because a lower volume of fuel can make it in to the fuel chamber. So it stands to reason that upping that low pressure to 100psi will increase pump output.

    Consistent with the theory is that Tony says he is (inadvertently) running 80-90psi low pressure currently, and has a dyno showing more torque than I've never seen the stock pump supply.
    I'd start with opening the inlet a tad and I'd also run a wider line to the HPFP as well as between the LPFP and the regulator to get that part out of the way.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Weird how that's exactly the opposite of what you was arguing a couple a couple weeks ago when I said 93 + meth was what I was interested in seeing. Ohh and the DME pulls timing in response to CATs without it being corrections, you can easily lose several degrees of timing advance in response to CATs and not have a single correction. That's how the DME can compensate for a fairly aggressive tune and it still be safe in hot weather.
    we start here and move on... no need to jump the ship a'la another tuner...
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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