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  1. #151
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    There's a "Limp Mode on the Track" thread over on E90Post & it's longer than Sticky DCT build thread. Even with the additional cooling the 335is & 1M have for the N54, those cars are still limping because of the significantly higher temps an FI car experiences (especially turbos​). IF you're gonna track, NA is the way to go.
    wow that's pretty bad. Surprising too, especially on the 1m with twin coolers.

    ED: though turbos are more efficient compressors than superchargers, so especially turbos doesn't make much sense?

  2. #152
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    ED: though turbos are more efficient compressors than superchargers, so especially turbos doesn't make much sense?
    Turbos create significantly more heat than superchargers (especially when you consider how effective a twin screw is at keeping IATs low over prolonged use). You also need to be pumping oil through the turbos, oil that needs to be cooled, which is why even the 1Ms twin coolers can't keep the oil temps on an aggressive track day. If a supercharger has a very efficient IAT induction system (preferably Air/Air for track days), it's unlikely it'll "limp mode". Air/Water is more susceptible because as waters increase (from cooling IATs), it's very difficult to get the water temp back down without an ice chest or driving the car gently/pitting.
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  3. #153
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    IF you're gonna track, NA is the way to go.
    No doubt about this.

  4. #154
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    There's a "Limp Mode on the Track" thread over on E90Post & it's longer than Sticky DCT build thread. Even with the additional cooling the 335is & 1M have for the N54, those cars are still limping because of the significantly higher temps an FI car experiences (especially turbos​). IF you're gonna track, NA is the way to go.
    With proper oil coolers manual transmission cars really aren't overheating much. I have the Stett stg 2 oil cooler and no other cooling mods (besides intercooler) and my car can do 40 minute sessions on the track without overheating...

  5. #155
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    With proper oil coolers manual transmission cars really aren't overheating much. I have the Stett stg 2 oil cooler and no other cooling mods (besides intercooler) and my car can do 40 minute sessions on the track without overheating...
    ^ This

    I've had personal experience with a number of local road course junkies as well as a good number of remote guys through etuning. In terms of cooling, dual oil coolers are a MUST for serious road course action in order to keep limp mode out of the way. Yes, you can get away without them at times but eventually depending on the road course setup, you'll hit that limp again. Boost mapping also should be taken into account to customize it for road course sessions to bring down heat although meth can/does help. I'd never suggest more than 15-16psi PEAK on stock turbos at the road course with appropriate taper to redline making for nice predictable linear torque delivery. @MDORPHN and @yandyr are two of those road course guys we've road course tuned that frequent this forum off and on. Any questions you guys should reach out to them. @MDORPHN's car is participating in One Lap of America right now and he's doing really well! Click here to enlarge Good luck Neil!
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  6. #156
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    @MDORPHN 's road course beast getting ready for action at the One Lap of America:

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  7. #157
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Turbos create significantly more heat than superchargers
    No. They do not. If a supercharger is fed on the same oil system as the engine, it's going to suffer the same problems of oil overheating that turbos do. If you're talking ambient heat? Then yeah, but the ambient heat can be controlled by not running stock N54 exhaust housing-based turbos and heatshielding. As far as IATs go, turbos are significantly more efficient than superchargers. That's a fact.

    Nothing wrong with a turbo car on the road course if cooled correctly. There's nothing mystical about it. N/A motors biggest advantage over a turbo motor is response.

  8. #158
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    No. They do not. If a supercharger is fed on the same oil system as the engine, it's going to suffer the same problems of oil overheating that turbos do. If you're talking ambient heat? Then yeah, but the ambient heat can be controlled by not running stock N54 exhaust housing-based turbos and heatshielding.
    IF is a big word & chances are you'll be running a smaller sized turbo (like the stockers vs Stage 3s) to avoid unwanted turbo lag/delay, which will create very high temps. Regardless, any FI system is just going to add headaches and complicate every race build. It's higher stress on the motor (which can be built up), additional things that can break, which would be a real buzz kill if something needed to be fixed mid race (ex: rock gets stuck in an turbo compressor).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    As far as IATs go, turbos are significantly more efficient than superchargers. That's a fact.
    I never disputed what's efficient, but turbos are light years more efficient -- No parasitic loss and obviously you can actually tune a boost curve vs. being stuck with a specific pulley & target psi. But on a racecar, the goal is lightest weight and a race spec turbo system is going to add a ton of weight just in supporting cooling mods.
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  9. #159
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    IF is a big word & chances are you'll be running a smaller sized turbo (like the stockers vs Stage 3s) to avoid unwanted turbo lag/delay, which will create very high temps. Regardless, any FI system is just going to add headaches and complicate every race build. It's higher stress on the motor (which can be built up), additional things that can break, which would be a real buzz kill if something needed to be fixed mid race (ex: rock gets stuck in an turbo compressor).
    If you're at the track, and need pea shooter snails because you need tq at 3,000 RPM, then you need driving lessons. NA wins on response, but any driver worth a damn will be able to drive around the responsiveness of the turbos on a given car. But seriously...FI isn't used in motorsports because of the stress on the engine? Really? And if you want to talk about things that can break and hurt you easily in a race, a supercharger is powered by a belt. And if intercooled, requires even more plumbing than a turbo. Which can also fail if it's W/A IC. I wonder why we don't see these super cool running, super efficient SCs at the top levels of road racing? Can a wastegate get stuck closed in theory? Sure. But frankly, if that's your biggest risk, it's a risk worth taking every time for a team to be able to force more air past a restrictor plate. There are few practical reasons why a race team wouldn't go turbo, the most common being A: rule restrictions either banning turbos outright or banning teams from fitting turbos to cars that weren't equipped as such from the factory, or making the restrictions on turbos great enough to incentivize NA, or B: Cost caps (which admittedly does relate to complexity, but certainly not reliability). But come on man...additional things breaking...like a rock getting sucked up into the compressor? What kind of chicken little fearmongering crap is that? What's stopping an N/A car from sucking in debris from the front (where the intake usually is located)? Oh right, it's a filter. The same thing that those pesky, unreliable, heavy turbos have on them.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89
    I never disputed what's efficient, but turbos are light years more efficient -- No parasitic loss and obviously you can actually tune a boost curve vs. being stuck with a specific pulley & target psi. But on a racecar, the goal is lightest weight and a race spec turbo system is going to add a ton of weight just in supporting cooling mods.
    Have your lighter weight, race prepped, completely infallable because it's NA 128i. And enjoy getting destroyed by that oh so heavy 135 with upgraded twin oil coolers. The goal of race cars is optimal balance of all factors. And if taking a 75lb weight penalty on some pea shooter turbos, WG control, an IC, and a dual oil cooler kit (I'm being really generous here) means that you'll be able to have an extra 100whp RELIABLY over that super duper cammed 128i...any REAL race engineer/designer would take the weight penalty every time, because the positives outweigh the negatives. Saying that lightest weight is the singular goal of a race car, and that supporting cooling mods will add a ton of weight...that entire argument is bench racer bull$#@!. Tell that to Audi Sport or Porsche, or Peugeot, or any other race team who races in a series where turbos aren't either banned or massively penalized and see what they think. Hint: expect a lot of laughter.

    Back on topic: While these are likely not going to be super helpful on stock turbos (at least in terms of peak HP), it'll be interesting to see what a set of cams would do on a VTT S3 car. I would imagine that a fair amount of power would stand to be made throughout the entire RPM range. I just wonder if it makes business sense for Renntech to pursue them at this point, particularly on a platform that's no longer current.
    Click here to enlarge

  10. #160
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    IF is a big word & chances are you'll be running a smaller sized turbo (like the stockers vs Stage 3s) to avoid unwanted turbo lag/delay, which will create very high temps. Regardless, any FI system is just going to add headaches and complicate every race build. It's higher stress on the motor (which can be built up), additional things that can break, which would be a real buzz kill if something needed to be fixed mid race (ex: rock gets stuck in an turbo compressor).
    Again that's not true. You can run turbos that are medium sized and run them within spec and they will not put out as much heat as the tiny turbos on the N54.

    "Regardless, any FI system is just going to add headaches and complicate every race build."
    Complicated for you maybe, and complicated for others; but not complicated for everyone. FI has been used in racing for a long long time.

    "It's higher stress on the motor (which can be built up),"
    Not really. An equivalent high revving N/A motor (unless you're running a much larger displacement low-rev engine) will probably have more stress TBH.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    But on a racecar, the goal is lightest weight and a race spec turbo system is going to add a ton of weight just in supporting cooling mods.
    No more than a supercharged system. And race spec cars have weight limits. They usually have to add back weight to come up to spec. And turbo setups don't weigh THAT much.

  11. #161
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    every record holding car on the track's over here at least are definitely FI...

    The current fastest timeattack car is an 800-900whp (or something) evo 6 (technically at least..).. and every fastest for the last 5 years if not more has also been an evo (sierra sierra, cyber etc.).. then over in japan it's a turbo NSX, also some crazy SR20DET S15... i believe in the states the buttonwillow record was recently taken by a turbo NSX...

    record holding hillclimb car in scotland (every one i believe) is a twincharged evo 5/6

  12. #162
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DefactoM6 Click here to enlarge
    Tell that to Audi Sport or Porsche, or Peugeot, or any other race team who races in a series where turbos aren't either banned or massively penalized and see what they think. Hint: expect a lot of laughter.
    Let's look at the DTM cars: BMW, Audi & Mercedes all run some variant of their V8s. Let's look at the LMS cars (GT Class): Again BMW + Mercedes all run their V8s, then you also have Corvette + Ferrari runnings V8s, Porsche with their NA Flat-6 and Audi/Lamborghini runs a V10. NOT until you look at the FIA GT3 cars do you find two turbo cars: the Nissan GTR (which runs a V8-TT) & McLaren MP4. Meanwhile, you have 2 Aston Martins V12s, 2 Audi R8s with V10s, BMW runs the Z4 V8, Alpina runs the 6-series with a V8, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Ford & Mercedes all runs V8s, AND Porsche with the Flat-6. And in the ENTIRE 2012 FIA GT3, neither of the turbo'd cars finished in the 10.
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  13. #163
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Let's look at the DTM cars: BMW, Audi & Mercedes all run some variant of their V8s. Let's look at the LMS cars (GT Class): Again BMW + Mercedes all run their V8s, then you also have Corvette + Ferrari runnings V8s, Porsche with their NA Flat-6 and Audi/Lamborghini runs a V10. NOT until you look at the FIA GT3 cars do you find two turbo cars: the Nissan GTR (which runs a V8-TT) & McLaren MP4. Meanwhile, you have 2 Aston Martins V12s, 2 Audi R8s with V10s, BMW runs the Z4 V8, Alpina runs the 6-series with a V8, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Ford & Mercedes all runs V8s, AND Porsche with the Flat-6. And in the ENTIRE 2012 FIA GT3, neither of the turbo'd cars finished in the 10.
    Class racing organizations hate turbos because they are much harder to equalize, which is the point of that type of racing.

  14. #164
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Let's look at the DTM cars: BMW, Audi & Mercedes all run some variant of their V8s. Let's look at the LMS cars (GT Class): Again BMW + Mercedes all run their V8s, then you also have Corvette + Ferrari runnings V8s, Porsche with their NA Flat-6 and Audi/Lamborghini runs a V10. NOT until you look at the FIA GT3 cars do you find two turbo cars: the Nissan GTR (which runs a V8-TT) & McLaren MP4. Meanwhile, you have 2 Aston Martins V12s, 2 Audi R8s with V10s, BMW runs the Z4 V8, Alpina runs the 6-series with a V8, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Ford & Mercedes all runs V8s, AND Porsche with the Flat-6. And in the ENTIRE 2012 FIA GT3, neither of the turbo'd cars finished in the 10.
    that's just class rules, inlet restrictors, safety reasons (f1 used to be turbo but it was deemed unsafe for the most part as the reasoning i believe).. and in things like GT3.. you can either have a BIG n/a.. or a small displacement turbo, sometimes it just doesn't work in their favour, not a fair comparison imo.

    pretty sure the LMP winners are V12 turbo diesels for the last how many years?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Let's look at the DTM cars: BMW, Audi & Mercedes all run some variant of their V8s. Let's look at the LMS cars (GT Class): Again BMW + Mercedes all run their V8s, then you also have Corvette + Ferrari runnings V8s, Porsche with their NA Flat-6 and Audi/Lamborghini runs a V10. NOT until you look at the FIA GT3 cars do you find two turbo cars: the Nissan GTR (which runs a V8-TT) & McLaren MP4. Meanwhile, you have 2 Aston Martins V12s, 2 Audi R8s with V10s, BMW runs the Z4 V8, Alpina runs the 6-series with a V8, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Ford & Mercedes all runs V8s, AND Porsche with the Flat-6. And in the ENTIRE 2012 FIA GT3, neither of the turbo'd cars finished in the 10.
    LOL, are we REALLY having this conversation? DTM- Yeah, every manufacturer in the series made the choice to not use turbos! Oh wait, that's right, they're required to use 4.0L V8s that are NA and restricted to the 470ish HP range. Sorry, no turbos allowed. Nice try.

    LMS Cars (GT Class)? What are you talking about? Are you trying to say LMGTE? If so, guess what...they're restricted to NA as well. Next.

    FIA GT3- Frankly, we're talking about a gentleman's racing series here (pay to race). And it's a series where the cars are all homologated, and manufacturers who bring in more $ get preferential treatment. So take a good hard look at manufacturer support and development $. That's where the beginning of the win is determined. The rest of it is determined by which gentleman has the deepest pocket. Reaching into the depths of Wikipedia on that one, or just enamored by the glitzy names and shiny cars?

    Take a step back, and look at some real evidence...say, the pinnacle of sports car racing, LMP1. Where one can choose to work with restrictions set forth on nearly any possible engine combination possible (with the exception of Wankel powered vehicles, which were banned after Mazda's massive , and nobody has been stupid enough to try anything jet powered). Here are the rules, ironically taken from Wikipedia: "Naturally aspirated engines limited to 3400 cc (207.5 ci). Turbochargers and superchargers allowed for petrol engines with a maximum displacement of 2000 cc (122 ci) and for diesel engines with a maximum displacement of 3700 cc (225.8 ci), restrictor-limited to around 520 bhp. No limits on the number of cylinders for any type of engine. Fuel tank size of 75 litres (16.5 gallons) for petrol engines, 73 litres (16 gallons) for hybrid petrol engines, 60 litres (13.2 gallons) for diesel engines and 58 litres (12.8 gallons) for hybrid diesel engines.

    Alrighty, tell me when the last time an NA car won Le Mans? Seriously man, I do appreciate your enthusiasm, but spewing what other people have written with absolutely zero critical thought involved is colossally lame.
    Click here to enlarge

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    The last time a naturally aspirated car won Le Mans was BMW in 1999.

    The reason people see forced induction cars winning Le Mans is because you will make more power with forced induction. There is no real way to balance it as forced induction will have the advantage considering the cars can exceed VE limits that NA cars hit due to... well, not forcing air in.

    And nobody is challenging Audi really so we are going to see diesel and now diesel hybrid turbo dominating but that doesn't mean hybrid is better than turbo or naturally aspirated for the roadcourse now does it just because hybrids are winning Le Mans?

    The fact is naturally aspirated cars have won Le Mans plenty of times and more than any other engine configuration. Additionally, benefits are given these days for running hybrid setups due to a green emphasis and desire to push the technology so they get advantages. Furthermore, in the other ALMS series NA is run because naturally aspirated motors offer better response, are more reliable, and generate less heat / less susceptible to heat soak.

    In endurance racing this matters. A Porsche GT3 offers are much more road race ready setup than a 911 turbo. And an E39 M5 can probably beat the F10 M5 in a race with more than a couple laps because the F10 M5 will just limp home.

    There are pluses and minuses and looking at things as a whole saying one or the other is better offers little critical thought.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The last time a naturally aspirated car won Le Mans was BMW in 1999. The reason people see forced induction cars winning Le Mans is because you will make more power with forced induction. There is no real way to balance it as forced induction will have the advantage considering the cars can exceed VE limits that NA cars hit due to... well, forcing air in. And nobody is challenging Audi really so we are going to see diesel and now diesel hybrid turbo dominating but that doesn't mean hybrid is better than turbo or naturally aspirated for the roadcourse now does it just because hybrids are winning Le Mans?The fact is naturally aspirated cars have won Le Mans plenty of times and more than any other engine configuration. Additionally, benefits are given these days for running hybrid setups due to a green emphasis and desire to push the technology so they get advantages. Furthermore, in the other ALMS series NA is run because naturally aspirated motors offer better response, are more reliable, and generate less heat / less susceptible to heat soak.In endurance racing this matters. A Porsche GT3 offers are much more road race ready setup than a 911 turbo. And an E39 M5 can probably beat the F10 M5 in a race with more than a couple laps because the F10 M5 will just limp home. There are pluses and minuses and looking at things as a whole saying one or the other is better offers little critical thought.
    true, le mans is also about fuel efficiency and reliability a lot too

    ED: sticky, i had to edit this post because it posted totally blank besides the quote... mentioning just in case it's a thing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    @MDORPHN 's road course beast getting ready for action at the One Lap of America:
    Click here to enlarge
    I know this place too well Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge


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    bump for cams

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dietcoke Click here to enlarge
    bump for cams
    i sent another email to catcams a week or so ago... no reply

    time for another another email...

    this + single + head... relatively small percentage gains are starting to really add up, do want.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    i sent another email to catcams a week or so ago... no reply

    time for another another email...

    this + single + head... relatively small percentage gains are starting to really add up, do want.
    I just want some cams and valvesprings or w/e so I can rev her out more. That ported head yea but not for 4k. I'd probably save that for when the motor will be built if the head has to come off....
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  22. #172
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    People always say cams are easy to do but when it comes to BMW's it seems to be only Schrick that can get it done.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    I just want some cams and valvesprings or w/e so I can rev her out more. That ported head yea but not for 4k. I'd probably save that for when the motor will be built if the head has to come off....
    What do you think you'd be able to safely rev out to? 7400-7500? More?

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    Bump for cams
    @renntech @lenny@renntech I'm local
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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