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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    The amount of force to the wheels, however - is much higher in 1st/2nd/etc. - so average power used is MUCH higher.
    This is where the math and multiplication comes in.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    Exactly, and what we're both saying here that shifting before redline is benefical on our car especially when they're tuned but it's a general rule. It definitely correlates directly to how the powerband looks like.

    In my case, I got the fastest performance when shifting around 6200
    Yeah. It depends on the t gear you're changing from as well

    low 6xxx is soooo low though! Guess that's what you get for good response lol

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Yeah. It depends on the t gear you're changing from as well

    low 6xxx is soooo low though! Guess that's what you get for good response lol
    loool
    But it does sound low, thing is I'm boosting 20.5 psi in the midrange and tons of timing on E50 + meth (Well used to Click here to enlarge ), and when you're north of 20 psi in the midrange, your taper is pretty steep up there, so i'd rather shift to go back to the crazy midrange
    SOLD --'07 E90 335i, PTF COBB E50, HFS4, ER CP, ETS 7", AA DP, Vishnu Exhaust, DCI, ACT, Nitto Nt555

    '10 E92 335i M, 6MT COBB v3, ER IC, ER CP, VRSF DP, Fuel-it st2
    installing soon: Mfactory LSD, , powerflex subrframe bushings

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RnmEvo9 Click here to enlarge
    What were your times?

    I personally saw no difference if I shifted at 6k or let the trans shift itself at 6800rpms. If I shifted early, I would flatline and if I didn't shift early, I wouldn't flatline...
    12.7 to 12.5 on average. Was experimenting & following Terry’s recommendations for a 6K shift. There were a number of runs with different shifts so it was not well planned for future reporting. I used a 2nd gear start & don’t think I have an auto shift in manual mode. 60ft were consistently bad at 2+

    I have not been to the track this year with the G5/ISO or E85 yet. A guy I have been working with that has my cars twin just posted some good numbers today at N54tech for a number of dyno runs. Since our Dynojet baselines are within 4WHP & our logs are almost an overlay I am looking forward to testing the G5 with E85.
    Kevin
    2011 335is 7DCT/JB4 G5-ISO BMS Flash
    2013 135is 6MT - JB4 G5-ISO
    FF Cobra Mk-IV work in progress

  5. #30
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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Executive Summary:
    Based on the theory in Flinchy's link, as most people predicted a stock car is best to shift at redline, whereas a modded car will vary based on the torque curves.

    Data:
    I finally got some time tonight after the kids went down to take the formulas from Flinchy's link and put them in to a spreadsheet that is actually useful. There are a couple assumptions in the link that can skew the data slightly, but not enough to probably matter (the biggest assumption being you can fit a standard slope to a torque curve - not always the case).

    I started with a stock dyno. Using the peak HP and torque values from that (along with the torque at redline) it showed that it is best to shift all gears at redline.

    For a highly modded car (I used Dzenno's record dyno graph) it showed the following ideal shift points:
    Click here to enlarge

    Not surprising for a car that is very peaked in the midrange.

    I also looked at the graph that Torqus posted. It was a little tough to read, but based on what I could make out, it appears that it is best to shift that particular car at redline. This intuitively makes sense to me as it seems to hold its horsepower out to redline.

    I've attached my spreadsheet (pretty basic) so you can play with this too. It allows you to look at the optimal shiftpoints for both an auto and a manual (sorry - I didn't do a DCT yet). All you have to do is input the peak HP (and RPM), the peak torque (and RPM) and the torque at redline (or wherever your dyno graph maxes out).

    In the end, I totally get that this is theoretical and that theory doesn't always play out in practice. But I thought it was an interesting way to look at how to get the most performance out of our cars.

    -Rich

    Optimum Shift Point.zip

  6. #31
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    password
    2015 - Cayman GTS - Stock
    2011 - 335is e92 - Cobb PTF E40/Rob Beck/AR/Helix (458 rwtq and 479 rwhp) - Retired
    2007 - 911 Turbo - EP1/AMS (617 awtq and 500 awhp) - Retired
    2008 - 335i e92 - Cobb/AR/Helix/OSS (384 rwtq and 356 rwhp) - Retired
    2003 and 2005 330i/ci zhp - Stock - Retired

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mithiral67 Click here to enlarge
    password
    Shouldn't need it for the 6 editable fields (numbers under "value" and "rpm").

    Let me know if you can't edit those.

    -Rich

  8. #33
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    Oh, i just like to poke around in the data.
    2015 - Cayman GTS - Stock
    2011 - 335is e92 - Cobb PTF E40/Rob Beck/AR/Helix (458 rwtq and 479 rwhp) - Retired
    2007 - 911 Turbo - EP1/AMS (617 awtq and 500 awhp) - Retired
    2008 - 335i e92 - Cobb/AR/Helix/OSS (384 rwtq and 356 rwhp) - Retired
    2003 and 2005 330i/ci zhp - Stock - Retired

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mithiral67 Click here to enlarge
    Oh, i just like to poke around in the data.
    Gotcha. I'll post up an unlocked version tomorrow.

    -Rich

  10. #35
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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    no worries, i got in Click here to enlarge

    Cheers
    2015 - Cayman GTS - Stock
    2011 - 335is e92 - Cobb PTF E40/Rob Beck/AR/Helix (458 rwtq and 479 rwhp) - Retired
    2007 - 911 Turbo - EP1/AMS (617 awtq and 500 awhp) - Retired
    2008 - 335i e92 - Cobb/AR/Helix/OSS (384 rwtq and 356 rwhp) - Retired
    2003 and 2005 330i/ci zhp - Stock - Retired

  11. #36
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    I like it rep to that.
    2015 - Cayman GTS - Stock
    2011 - 335is e92 - Cobb PTF E40/Rob Beck/AR/Helix (458 rwtq and 479 rwhp) - Retired
    2007 - 911 Turbo - EP1/AMS (617 awtq and 500 awhp) - Retired
    2008 - 335i e92 - Cobb/AR/Helix/OSS (384 rwtq and 356 rwhp) - Retired
    2003 and 2005 330i/ci zhp - Stock - Retired

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mithiral67 Click here to enlarge
    no worries, i got in Click here to enlarge

    Cheers
    Scary Click here to enlarge Was the password that easy to guess? Rep'd regardless - that's pretty impressive Click here to enlarge

    -Rich

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    Executive Summary:
    Based on the theory in Flinchy's link, as most people predicted a stock car is best to shift at redline, whereas a modded car will vary based on the torque curves.

    Data:
    I finally got some time tonight after the kids went down to take the formulas from Flinchy's link and put them in to a spreadsheet that is actually useful. There are a couple assumptions in the link that can skew the data slightly, but not enough to probably matter (the biggest assumption being you can fit a standard slope to a torque curve - not always the case).

    I started with a stock dyno. Using the peak HP and torque values from that (along with the torque at redline) it showed that it is best to shift all gears at redline.

    For a highly modded car (I used Dzenno's record dyno graph) it showed the following ideal shift points:
    Click here to enlarge

    Not surprising for a car that is very peaked in the midrange.

    I also looked at the graph that Torqus posted. It was a little tough to read, but based on what I could make out, it appears that it is best to shift that particular car at redline. This intuitively makes sense to me as it seems to hold its horsepower out to redline.

    I've attached my spreadsheet (pretty basic) so you can play with this too. It allows you to look at the optimal shiftpoints for both an auto and a manual (sorry - I didn't do a DCT yet). All you have to do is input the peak HP (and RPM), the peak torque (and RPM) and the torque at redline (or wherever your dyno graph maxes out).

    In the end, I totally get that this is theoretical and that theory doesn't always play out in practice. But I thought it was an interesting way to look at how to get the most performance out of our cars.

    -Rich

    Optimum Shift Point.zip
    wow that's even lower than i expected!

    low to mid 5xxx for dzenno's.. they really REALLY run out of breath up high, in comparison even moreso if you're pushing them in the mid as far as they go lol. 2000 off redline in 5th>6th is such a waste of potential

    i take it it assumes linear torque drop from peak to redline?... how does it know that it's dropping back to the right point as torque builds rather rapidly, it's not a linear increase is it?.. or for this purpose, is it assuming a linear increase?

    thanks for that, +rep Click here to enlarge (i especially like how you present it in a proper business report format haha) - will have a play with it after work tomorrow Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    Scary
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge Was the password that easy to guess? Rep'd regardless - that's pretty impressive Click here to enlarge

    -Rich

    got a laugh out of me for that haha

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    wow that's even lower than i expected!

    low to mid 5xxx for dzenno's.. they really REALLY run out of breath up high, in comparison even moreso if you're pushing them in the mid as far as they go lol. 2000 off redline in 5th>6th is such a waste of potential

    i take it it assumes linear torque drop from peak to redline?... how does it know that it's dropping back to the right point as torque builds rather rapidly, it's not a linear increase is it?.. or for this purpose, is it assuming a linear increase?

    thanks for that, +rep Click here to enlarge (i especially like how you present it in a proper business report format haha) - will have a play with it after work tomorrow Click here to enlarge

    Those shift points are pretty low, but I think dzenno’s is an extreme example where the HP and Torque both peak in the midrange (both around 4,500RPMs). Even most highly modified stock turbos don’t peak that strongly for HP in the midrange.


    And yes, you are right that it is a linear drop from peak to redline. That is why I chose the torque at redline as a value – you could choose any value you want, we just have to create the slope off of that line. While it isn’t perfect, it should give a pretty accurate look at area under the curve, even with a less than smooth drop off. For dzenno’s, it is fairly sensitive to what peak value you put in, but I think it does a good job of showing the most obvious example of where shortshifting would be beneficial.


    You are also right that it is creating a linear increase for the build-up of torque. Again, it should be pretty close to the area under the curve, and the formula is even less susceptible to this being off since our cars build up to peak torque so fast. Most of the area under the curve is later in the RPM range.


    Thanks for the rep on the executive summary. I HATE long posts (and emails) without a quick summary up front. Notice I said “up front” – it is almost as bad when people put a summary at the bottom Click here to enlarge



    -Rich

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    Scary Click here to enlarge Was the password that easy to guess? Rep'd regardless - that's pretty impressive Click here to enlarge

    -Rich
    Ha I PM you how I did, it is less hackers and more accounting nerd
    2015 - Cayman GTS - Stock
    2011 - 335is e92 - Cobb PTF E40/Rob Beck/AR/Helix (458 rwtq and 479 rwhp) - Retired
    2007 - 911 Turbo - EP1/AMS (617 awtq and 500 awhp) - Retired
    2008 - 335i e92 - Cobb/AR/Helix/OSS (384 rwtq and 356 rwhp) - Retired
    2003 and 2005 330i/ci zhp - Stock - Retired

  16. #41
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    Yes I saw the formulas that determines the tq slope based off of the RPM where the peak torque and your ending torqued ht. This can be thrown off if they have an uneven tq curve at the beginning. Might be better to note tq and rpms where tq linearly declines. At the end of the day, that slope over the last 2k rpms is the meat of your calc.
    2015 - Cayman GTS - Stock
    2011 - 335is e92 - Cobb PTF E40/Rob Beck/AR/Helix (458 rwtq and 479 rwhp) - Retired
    2007 - 911 Turbo - EP1/AMS (617 awtq and 500 awhp) - Retired
    2008 - 335i e92 - Cobb/AR/Helix/OSS (384 rwtq and 356 rwhp) - Retired
    2003 and 2005 330i/ci zhp - Stock - Retired

  17. #42
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    That is cool.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    I also looked at the graph that Torgus posted. It was a little tough to read, but based on what I could make out, it appears that it is best to shift that particular car at redline. This intuitively makes sense to me as it seems to hold its horsepower out to redline.

    That dyno is with RBs from Ghost135s for sale thread: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...35-s-2008-135i

    So is this right:
    stock tune and stock twins rev to redline
    modified tune and stock twins FBO or no BO's short shift
    modified tune and upgraded twins rev to redline

  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    That is cool.
    Yes, it's a great little website, preset car in there is a modded 335i with old XEDE tool.
    Click to match your dyno graph & it'll tell you when to shift Click here to enlarge

    Performance Metrics
    Modified BMW 335i
    Peak Power (HP) 353 @ 6000 RPM
    Peak Torque (ft-lbf) 405 @ 3000 RPM
    Top Speed (mph) 179
    30-60 time (s) 2.35
    Start in gear 2
    30-90 time (s) 6.3
    Start in gear 2
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 6792 RPM
    30-120 time (s) 12.55
    Start in gear 2
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 6792 RPM
    Shift gear 3 to 4 @ 6581 RPM
    60-90 time (s) 3.9
    Start in gear 3
    60-120 time (s) 10.1
    Start in gear 3
    Shift gear 3 to 4 @ 6578 RPM
    Cruising RPM
    at 80mph
    2885
    Performance Metrics
    Stock BMW 335i
    Peak Power (HP) 276 @ 5600 RPM
    Peak Torque (ft-lbf) 288 @ 3400 RPM
    Top Speed (mph) 168
    30-60 time (s) 3.05
    Start in gear 1
    Shift gear 1 to 2 @ 7000 RPM
    30-90 time (s) 8.25
    Start in gear 1
    Shift gear 1 to 2 @ 7000 RPM
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 7000 RPM
    30-120 time (s) 16.8
    Start in gear 1
    Shift gear 1 to 2 @ 7000 RPM
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 7000 RPM
    Shift gear 3 to 4 @ 6809 RPM
    60-90 time (s) 5.25
    Start in gear 2
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 7000 RPM
    60-120 time (s) 13.75
    Start in gear 2
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 7000 RPM
    Shift gear 3 to 4 @ 6815 RPM
    Cruising RPM
    at 80mph
    2885
    LEMANS BLUE M-TECH E92->PROCEDE REV3::ETS 7" FMIC::RACELAND DPS::WAVETRAC DIFF::DEFIV DIFF LOCKDOWN::DEFIV OCC::DEFIV INTAKE::RB PCV

  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    That dyno is with RBs from Ghost135s for sale thread: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...35-s-2008-135i

    So is this right:
    stock tune and stock twins rev to redline
    modified tune and stock twins FBO or no BO's short shift
    modified tune and upgraded twins rev to redline
    I think that is probably fair. Of course, there is always the old disclaimer "your mileage may vary". But intuitively, it makes sense too (we know the stock twins run out of breath at the high end when modded, but RBs, etc breath better to redline).

    -Rich

  21. #46
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    Bummed I missed this earlier. I'll have to check it out! Sounds sweet!

    -Rich

  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    Yes, it's a great little website, preset car in there is a modded 335i with old XEDE tool.
    Click to match your dyno graph & it'll tell you when to shift Click here to enlarge

    Performance Metrics
    Modified BMW 335i
    Peak Power (HP) 353 @ 6000 RPM
    Peak Torque (ft-lbf) 405 @ 3000 RPM
    Top Speed (mph) 179
    30-60 time (s) 2.35
    Start in gear 2
    30-90 time (s) 6.3
    Start in gear 2
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 6792 RPM
    30-120 time (s) 12.55
    Start in gear 2
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 6792 RPM
    Shift gear 3 to 4 @ 6581 RPM
    60-90 time (s) 3.9
    Start in gear 3
    60-120 time (s) 10.1
    Start in gear 3
    Shift gear 3 to 4 @ 6578 RPM
    Cruising RPM
    at 80mph
    2885
    Performance Metrics
    Stock BMW 335i
    Peak Power (HP) 276 @ 5600 RPM
    Peak Torque (ft-lbf) 288 @ 3400 RPM
    Top Speed (mph) 168
    30-60 time (s) 3.05
    Start in gear 1
    Shift gear 1 to 2 @ 7000 RPM
    30-90 time (s) 8.25
    Start in gear 1
    Shift gear 1 to 2 @ 7000 RPM
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 7000 RPM
    30-120 time (s) 16.8
    Start in gear 1
    Shift gear 1 to 2 @ 7000 RPM
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 7000 RPM
    Shift gear 3 to 4 @ 6809 RPM
    60-90 time (s) 5.25
    Start in gear 2
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 7000 RPM
    60-120 time (s) 13.75
    Start in gear 2
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 7000 RPM
    Shift gear 3 to 4 @ 6815 RPM
    Cruising RPM
    at 80mph
    2885
    Yeah I played around a bit with the info from Dzenno's record run at 650 wtq and Ghost135's dyno posted earlier in the thread. It recommend short shifting Dzenno's dyno and taking Ghost135's to red line.

    You can tell looking at Dzenno's 650 wtq dyno that short shifting is necessary as HP takes a dive toward red line, but Ghost135's dyno shows flat horsepower at red line so you could take that car all the way to the 6800 shift point (if auto) or red line if manual (probably slightly below to avoid bouncing off the rev limiter).

  23. #48
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    I like to see Ghost135's dyno out to 7500 or 8000...be interesting to see when the RBs start to fall off. It would be nice to have 475whp from 5200-8k...

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    it should also be noted that while dzennos example is better to shift before redline, it still carries the same or greater power than other cars to the same RPM's, and would still accelerate faster than other N54's all the way to redline, just LESS efficiently.

    one thing i'm slightly confused about - just using dzennos car again... going from 1st to 2nd results in a 40% reduction in gearing, so an (as far as i'm aware of how it works) 40% reduction in torque to the wheels

    6000rpm in 1st gear is , taking into account gearing, 1786.4.. peak torque in second at 4500rpm would be 1514.26 - even at ~6500rpm in first, you're making 1533.75tq, which is more than PEAK in second

    maybe i'm overthinking this.. but this math points out a further 500rpm in first is more effective than shifting at 6000 to second gear.

    i'm not entirely sure at 6500rpm if you shift to second, what RPM you end up at, i haven't bothered working that out

    BUT if it's below 4500rpm (which i don't think it is) it would even still be more effective to carry it through to 6600-6700.

    i'm not sure what RPM
    ED: ok yep according to http://vlsicad.ucsd.edu/~sharma/Potpourri/perf_est.html with a semi accurate plot

    Start in gear 2
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 6489 RPM
    Shift gear 3 to 4 @ 5815 RPM
    Last edited by Flinchy; 03-13-2013 at 08:40 PM.

  25. #50
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    final drive also changes calculations on that site so you can see what lower speeds are like for shifting in first- for dzenno's, when he had 2.56 final drive,

    Start in gear 1
    Shift gear 1 to 2 @ 6915 RPM
    Shift gear 2 to 3 @ 6472 RPM - so first gear is optimum until near redline with the particular curve i entered (with a fair bit of tweaking it's PRETTY CLOSE

    this site is GREAT

    thanks @uniter Click here to enlarge

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