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  1. #51
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    I give it 2 yrs, if they dont have a bigger T and smoking N54's by then ill forget about the n54 and n55 and get the M.. Hopefully's Sticky's when he is ready to sell.

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Hopefully's Sticky's when he is ready to sell.
    Mine is going to be a bit more modified than your average SC M3.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  3. #53
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    I think this means flash tunes will be getting the bigger gains than piggy backs on the N55.
    Why is this? Does flashing allow control over more parameters?

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vwrefugee Click here to enlarge
    Why is this? Does flashing allow control over more parameters?
    Yes and you are directly altering the factory DME.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  5. #55
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    Interesting. My past modding experience has all been on the VW side and I know that back in the early days of the 1.8T there were some piggybacks on the market but they soon fell out of favour versus the flashes from GIAC, APR, REVO et al. The 1.8T (and the newer 2.0T) also uses a MAF sensor so I wonder if that had anything to do with it.

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vwrefugee Click here to enlarge
    Interesting. My past modding experience has all been on the VW side and I know that back in the early days of the 1.8T there were some piggybacks on the market but they soon fell out of favour versus the flashes from GIAC, APR, REVO et al. The 1.8T (and the newer 2.0T) also uses a MAF sensor so I wonder if that had anything to do with it.
    Interesting, I think the N55 will take the same path.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  7. #57
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    I too, hope that direct flashing is made available for the N55.

  8. #58
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    Well, flashing is the "neater" approach and if it addresses more parameters then it is theoretically superior. I guess the one big disadvantage is if flashing is visible to the dealer where the piggyback is not. The popular flashes for VWs have always claimed to be "invisible" but maybe BMW has a more sophisticated detection system. Still, it's hard to imagine that tuners would not be able to get around this eventually with some study.

  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vwrefugee Click here to enlarge
    Well, flashing is the "neater" approach and if it addresses more parameters then it is theoretically superior. I guess the one big disadvantage is if flashing is visible to the dealer where the piggyback is not. The popular flashes for VWs have always claimed to be "invisible" but maybe BMW has a more sophisticated detection system. Still, it's hard to imagine that tuners would not be able to get around this eventually with some study.
    Now that OE Tuning offers EZ flash just flash it back to stock at home, simple.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Now that OE Tuning offers EZ flash just flash it back to stock at home, simple.
    hopefully they'll have a N55 solution soon

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Now that OE Tuning offers EZ flash just flash it back to stock at home, simple.
    good point!

  12. #62
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I have had a lengthy discussion with my tuner who is working on various stages of the N55. At this stage in the flash game there is a special tool that is required to flash it and at the moment no one is releasing results. There are two companies that I know that has this ability, one with success and one without success. The running information is stored on two seperate DME's.
    The engine on overall has more potential as it stands for bolt on application. This is if bolt on turbos is considered a bolt on because modifying a junky single turbo is a far easier job than twins. Its far easier to work on for this reason and all the intake resistance of intake plumbing running either side of the motor is nulified.
    The only unknown is that the no one knows the limitation of the DI injectors. Unlike the N54 which shares its injectors with the X5, X6 M and is known to max out at around 85whp/cylinder the N55 has completely different injectors. So again the limit will be known once larger turbos are added.
    As for strength of the motor I would imagine that it is stronger as my sources tell me it is the basis for the new M3.
    The strange thing of all of this though is that this motor was developed prior to the N54. I have read a VDO Seimens document (thousands of pages) where the initial motor was single turbo.

    For the guys that say the N54 motor is better because its used in this and that keep in mind that when BMW develops its motors not all components are built in house. There are certain items that are procured from other companies and contracts are in place for minimum quantities and time periods. Therefore they do not just stop the engine dead in its tracks and move to N55 as they have a certain amount of N54 motors that have to be rolled out. The bread and butter cars such as the 1er and 3er four door shells are retooled to accept the N55 but the smaller production cars such as the Z4 and E92 continue because retooling the production line will not make economic sense so far into the production or due to the low production numbers. The 335is might have even been old stock that they needed to move by beefing them up. Does anyone one know if one could configure these cars to exact spec?

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    The engine on overall has more potential as it stands for bolt on application. This is if bolt on turbos is considered a bolt on because modifying a junky single turbo is a far easier job than twins. Its far easier to work on for this reason and all the intake resistance of intake plumbing running either side of the motor is nulified.
    This is my reasoning as well and I agree with it completely.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  14. #64
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    +2

  15. #65
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    N54 is used in the 335is and 1M (listen the bimmerfile podcast where they say Valvetronic has not yet been mastered for high-power applications and thus N54 will be used). Saying they put N54 in the is model because it was cheaper is hilarious.

    N55 was developed to be cheaper and have better fuel economy, but not for ultimate performance. Also, N55 was developed after BMW overengineered the N54 in order to ensure their first turbo engine after such a long time is strong enough.

    N55 does NOT have 6 more hp than the N54. The difference is because the Euro rating is 306hp and the US rating is 300hp and some people are mixing them.

    N55 has more lag according to numerous BMS posts. And really, a single bigger turbo will always have more lag than 2 smaller ones given a 5 years technology timeframe. It's just physics.

    Oh, and drive a 340hp/overboost Z4 sDrive35is with DCT and you will see what N54 is all about Click here to enlarge If the 1M will have this engine it will be enough...

  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    N55 was developed to be cheaper and have better fuel economy, but not for ultimate performance. Also, N55 was developed after BMW overengineered the N54 in order to ensure their first turbo engine after such a long time is strong enough.
    Proof? What are you basing this on? How was the N55 developed to be cheaper? Of course it has better fuel economy, it has valvetronic. That also means it is more complex as it has more parts. It also should have better response.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    N55 does NOT have 6 more hp than the N54. The difference is because the Euro rating is 306hp and the US rating is 300hp and some people are mixing them.
    We have dyno results posted of a broken in N54 vs. a brand new N55 and the N55 made slightly more peak power at the wheels. No point in getting caught up with crank ratings, BMW fudges them a bit anyway.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    N55 has more lag according to numerous BMS posts. And really, a single bigger turbo will always have more lag than 2 smaller ones given a 5 years technology timeframe. It's just physics.
    A single bigger turbo won't always have more lag than 2 smaller turbos. It completely depends on the setup, applications, and tuning. It is not absolute as you put it. Many single turbo supras have setups more efficient and with less lag than twins.

    You can take a look at direct dyno comparison to see the powerband for yourself, the curves are shockingly similar: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...6261#post16261

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    Oh, and drive a 340hp/overboost Z4 sDrive35is with DCT and you will see what N54 is all about If the 1M will have this engine it will be enough...
    The next gen M3, which will annihilate anything coming out with an N54 any time soon, will be an N55 variant. What does that tell you?
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  17. #67
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    N55 was developed to be cheaper and have better fuel economy, but not for ultimate performance. Also, N55 was developed after BMW overengineered the N54 in order to ensure their first turbo engine after such a long time is strong enough.
    Proof? What are you basing this on? How was the N55 developed to be cheaper? Of course it has better fuel economy, it has valvetronic. That also means it is more complex as it has more parts. It also should have better response.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    N55 does NOT have 6 more hp than the N54. The difference is because the Euro rating is 306hp and the US rating is 300hp and some people are mixing them.
    We have dyno results posted of a broken in N54 vs. a brand new N55 and the N55 made slightly more peak power at the wheels. No point in getting caught up with crank ratings, BMW fudges them a bit anyway.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    N55 has more lag according to numerous BMS posts. And really, a single bigger turbo will always have more lag than 2 smaller ones given a 5 years technology timeframe. It's just physics.
    A single bigger turbo won't always have more lag than 2 smaller turbos. It completely depends on the setup, applications, and tuning. It is not absolute as you put it. Many single turbo supras have setups more efficient and with less lag than twins.

    You can take a look at direct dyno comparison to see the powerband for yourself, the curves are shockingly similar: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...6261#post16261

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    Oh, and drive a 340hp/overboost Z4 sDrive35is with DCT and you will see what N54 is all about If the 1M will have this engine it will be enough...
    The next gen M3, which will annihilate anything coming out with an N54 any time soon, will be an N55 variant. What does that tell you?
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  18. #68
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The next gen M3, which will annihilate anything coming out with an N54 any time soon, will be an N55 variant. What does that tell you?
    The next gen M3 will most certainly have larger displacement because BMW cannot generate 420-440hp from a 3 liter engine reliably heat-wise and without lag. 3.4-3.6 liter is my guess but it could also be a smaller than 4l V8 (I remember a 3.5l V8 in the BMW past) in order to keep the V8 sound and dynamics, or even the 4l V8 with 2 turbines added and lower compression ratio in order to not need high revs and thus reduce fuel consumption.

    I don't think (it's just my opinion) that Valvetronic will ever be used in an M car. If you remember, the e46 M3 engine did not have valvetronic but there were Valvetronic engines in BMW lineup at that time. The e92 M3 does not have Valvetronic. The current Bimmerfile podcast talks about the same issue: Valvetronic has not yet been mastered for high power applications (http://www.bimmerfile.com/2010/08/11...k-in-our-bmws/)

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge

    I don't think (it's just my opinion) that Valvetronic will ever be used in an M car. If you remember, the e46 M3 engine did not have valvetronic but there were Valvetronic engines in BMW lineup at that time. The e92 M3 does not have Valvetronic. The current Bimmerfile podcast talks about the same issue: Valvetronic has not yet been mastered for high power applications (http://www.bimmerfile.com/2010/08/11...k-in-our-bmws/)
    Valvetronic does not like high rpms, not high power. So if the new M3 is a low reving turbocharged motor it will most certainly be valvetronic.

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    N55 was developed to be cheaper and have better fuel economy, but not for ultimate performance. Also, N55 was developed after BMW overengineered the N54 in order to ensure their first turbo engine after such a long time is strong enough.
    I have to take issue with this statement as well. In theory a single turbo setup should be cheaper to manufacture than a twin, but Valvetronic is said to be pretty expensive itself, so is the N55 really any cheaper for BMW to manufacture? As for the N54 being overengineered, I've never seen anything definitive about the internals (forged rods, pistons, crank etc?) And assuming the N54 is as tough as nails, where has it been documented that the N55 has been cheapened/weakened? Finally, it's also unlikely that BMW worries too much about building their engines for "ultimate" performance as defined by aftermarket tuning potential. I think that when they designed the N54 they wanted 300ish HP with minimal lag, and that two small turbos seemed like the most workable solution at the time to provide both flow and spool within their development timeframe. The fact that the engine also responds well to ECU tuning is just a happy by-product of their design choice. What isn't so easy on the N54 is going to a big turbo set-up, and there's been a few posts on guys actually doing single turbo conversions. Gee, maybe BMW was thinking about ultimate performance with the N55 by easing the big turbo swap (of course not, but again, another happy by-product).

  21. #71
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    The next gen M3 will most certainly have larger displacement because BMW cannot generate 420-440hp from a 3 liter engine reliably heat-wise and without lag.
    Based on what? If Subaru can do it from a 2.0 4 banger I'm sure BMW wouldn't have trouble.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    I don't think (it's just my opinion) that Valvetronic will ever be used in an M car. If you remember, the e46 M3 engine did not have valvetronic but there were Valvetronic engines in BMW lineup at that time. The e92 M3 does not have Valvetronic. The current Bimmerfile podcast talks about the same issue: Valvetronic has not yet been mastered for high power applications
    Didn't it take a while for M motors to incorporate VANOS as well?

    If this Green thing is being pushed so hard, I think we will eventually see Valvetronic trickle in due to the efficiency gain.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  22. #72
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    Valvetronic does not like high rpms, not high power. So if the new M3 is a low reving turbocharged motor it will most certainly be valvetronic.
    I was about to make this point.

    Same reason BMW also did not do direct injection with high revs early on as well hence the M motors not having it.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vwrefugee Click here to enlarge
    I have to take issue with this statement as well. In theory a single turbo setup should be cheaper to manufacture than a twin, but Valvetronic is said to be pretty expensive itself, so is the N55 really any cheaper for BMW to manufacture? As for the N54 being overengineered, I've never seen anything definitive about the internals (forged rods, pistons, crank etc?) And assuming the N54 is as tough as nails, where has it been documented that the N55 has been cheapened/weakened? Finally, it's also unlikely that BMW worries too much about building their engines for "ultimate" performance as defined by aftermarket tuning potential. I think that when they designed the N54 they wanted 300ish HP with minimal lag, and that two small turbos seemed like the most workable solution at the time to provide both flow and spool within their development timeframe. The fact that the engine also responds well to ECU tuning is just a happy by-product of their design choice. What isn't so easy on the N54 is going to a big turbo set-up, and there's been a few posts on guys actually doing single turbo conversions. Gee, maybe BMW was thinking about ultimate performance with the N55 by easing the big turbo swap (of course not, but again, another happy by-product).
    I think you make a very good argument.

    If anything, the N54 may not have the strongest internals as I believe some pieces are cast. I'll take a look into this.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Everyone is just speculating at this point. No one knows anything. Just wait and see, I don't care which motor is better/stronger/gets me off faster. I like to see results from data, and only time will tell.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

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    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think you make a very good argument.

    If anything, the N54 may not have the strongest internals as I believe some pieces are cast. I'll take a look into this.
    Casting technology has come a long way. It used to be frowned upon for applications such as boost/nitrous. But the motor handles it well, a testament to new technological developments in manufacturing. And busting the myth once and for all that casting is the devil. It isn't soo bad...
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

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