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View Poll Results: Your preferred Methanol Injection Kit

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  1. #76
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    I wish this was a 3.4 or a 3.6L motor Click here to enlarge that'd sugar coat it
    Click here to enlarge

  2. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    LOL Not in that slow ass ride of yours they don't
    I suppose a car that you couldn't tune properly without assistance of the alpina flash would be slow. Click here to enlarge

    With all due respect, the point of that post was to point out spinning 3rd gear isn't impressive especially on blowers twice the size of stock turbos. Its more expected than surprising.

  3. #78
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Anyone who has tuned these cars on 91 knows it will make any turbo kit look pretty tame in comparison to even pump 93 octane. I just can't imagine anyone running larger turbos on 91 octane alone in the real world. It's going to be slower than factory turbos on an E85 mix. For RBs if they want to run 91 they need our pump flash (which is around 8 degrees advance peak), and 14.5psi, which makes something like 400-420rw. Sure there is another 20-30rw in there if someone wants to push it but pushing things on 91 octane is basically begging to crack a piston IMHO. These days it's rare I come across an RB customer wanting to run 93 octane alone too. It's always pump + meth, or E85, or most common E85 + meth.

    They can do it however they want but publishing pump gas numbers first is horrible for marketing and more of a PITA to tune for. First 91 octane is volatile and when you're feeling a setup out it's easy to melt something. For my money you'd want to optimize the boost and fuel curves first on very high octane so you know what you're dealing with turbo hardware wise and then once you have a benchmark roll back advance and boost as needed for lower octane levels.
    Agreed, you're octane limited at those airflow levels, similar to how we cant make too much over 400 safely on RB's with pump gas, even more so for ACN91.

    CR needs to be dropped for starters.

  4. #79
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    RB turbo like power band on a kit that has 860hp worth of air (more than the VFF700 PTE6262 that's rated for 700hp) with turbines much larger than the RBs? Are you nuts? Click here to enlarge I don't believe you're being honest with that Godspeed comment...you realize these are .64 AR housings on each of the GTX2863R right?
    I have not been following along closely so I'm not sure what compressors are actually mounted. Last I read there were 12 options? Sounds like it's a setup intended for 27-30psi as built now?

    I meant the godspeed comment. I personally could not care less whether or not we sell an extra 10 JB4s from people who buy this kit over the next year. But I know using a piggyback for boost control (whether it's a JB4 or the procede) will give the project the best chance for success. I understand the customer already has a procede on the car? So just use that. Works basically the same way.
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  5. #80
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I have not been following along closely so I'm not sure what compressors are actually mounted. Last I read there were 12 options? Sounds like it's a setup intended for 27-30psi as built now?

    I meant the godspeed comment. I personally could not care less whether or not we sell an extra 10 JB4s from people who buy this kit over the next year. But I know using a piggyback for boost control (whether it's a JB4 or the procede) will give the project the best chance for success. I understand the customer already has a procede on the car? So just use that. Works basically the same way.
    There are 7 options this is the next to the biggest. We tried boost control with the procede before the AP came. To say boost was erratic and overshoots common, would be putting it mildly. Since Dzenno figured out a work around with COBB, looks like we will have no problem running as much boost as we want. I know I for one am very interested in 91 numbers as are quite a few people I talked to. Getting nice numbers on pump gas and throwing in meth or E85 when you really want to push it is an attractive option for people IMO. Either way we are starting at 91 and working out way up. Boost control pretty much done as of last night. We should be seeing some numbers very soon.

  6. #81
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I have not been following along closely so I'm not sure what compressors are actually mounted. Last I read there were 12 options? Sounds like it's a setup intended for 27-30psi as built now?

    I meant the godspeed comment. I personally could not care less whether or not we sell an extra 10 JB4s from people who buy this kit over the next year. But I know using a piggyback for boost control (whether it's a JB4 or the procede) will give the project the best chance for success. I understand the customer already has a procede on the car? So just use that. Works basically the same way.
    GTXs support a lot more boost than 27-30psi. Take a look at their compressor maps. It doesn't mean we'll run 30psi, at least not on ACN 91 Click here to enlarge

    Thanks for the godspeed comment, please keep sending us good Karma we sure can use any/all of it. I'm not sure I believe that not caring part. We all enjoy hp, sales or not...not sure why you implied I was talking about you making large volume sales of the jb4 if you added support to it for this kit? In fact I said to Tony the other day that tune wise this will be a much lower volume thing than stock turbo tunes...however, with a smaller gt or gtx turbo on the car, like say twin GT25s that might very well change

    In terms of stacking a jb4 or procede I've already mentioned we'll do that if necessary...at the moment since our testing this weekend it doesn't seem as necessary as it looked before
    Click here to enlarge

  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Agreed, you're octane limited at those airflow levels, similar to how we cant make too much over 400 safely on RB's with pump gas, even more so for ACN91.

    CR needs to be dropped for starters.
    Airflow is one thing, backpressure and heat another when it comes to octane..stock/hybrid turbos are simply more prone to knock at lower boost levels as already discussed by the ST camp
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I run 555Rs and I never loose grip in 3rd unless I hit a bump. Spins a bit in 2nd though. I ran factory rims / OEM runflats a few months ago just to remember what it was like and it would spin them through 3rd @ 17psi, lol. You can't tune properly when traction is an issue. Moral of the story: upgrade your tires. Click here to enlarge
    Car has nothing near stock run flats on it. I honestly hate these forums sometimes, people just assume and assume and assume assume. Also comparing these things to running RB's on 91 is like comparing apples to oranges. RB's are limited in HP no matter what fuel, timing, boost you throw at them. These are not. I am really starting to rethink my strategy for anything else we build. Just build it, don't say anything and post numbers. All this nitpicking, really don't care for it.

    Signing out of this convo, I got too much other stuff to do. D feel free to post for me. You might have more time on your hands then I do.

  9. #84
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Agreed, you're octane limited at those airflow levels, similar to how we cant make too much over 400 safely on RB's with pump gas.
    You're only octane limited at those airflow levels because of the heads VE compounded by the VE restriction of the stock manifold increasing cylinder temperatures and as such knock. A different turbo system is going to change the VE tables of the engine substantially, so you really cannot compare to anything based on the stock frame turbos.

    Something I learned once that really helps me visualize things, and I think would really help you too @themyst and others following this thread as you are very versed in cars, I may have said it before but it's a good example. Internal combustion engines, including diesels, are heat engines. It is virtually all that matters. That being said... think some parts through with that mindset.

    1) An aircharge comes in 2) It combusts when it is exposed to enough heat and pressure, or helped by a spark. 3) Some of that energy pushes the piston down, the rest exits the engine as waste. A turbo is a heat recycler, running off wasted heat.

    All of this energy is conserved throughout. Adding heat to the intake charge will increase heat as the charge is compressed, leading to a faster combustion (thus the need for intercooling or higher octane to prevent knock). How fast an engine can cycle fresh aircharge with old is considered the VE of the engine. If you block the exhaust, heat will linger in the chamber, increasing fresh aircharge temperature and increasing knock same as if the heat was from the intake. If you open the exhaust fully, then the restriction becomes the head design. Since RB's are stock frame, they had virtually the same restriction as stock, thus the same thermal limits are encountered from residual heat in the combustion chamber (more, actually, due to the increase power). This manifold will substantially increase engine VE to closer to the engines maximum natural VE as limited by head design, by increasing scavenging of heat from the cylinder you could say.

    Gasoline of X octane can only take so much heat before it combusts. By using a DI system, you delay this because the fuel charge takes nearly 90% of its latent heat out of the aircharge as it phase changes as opposed to cylinder walls, heads, intakes, etc. Sadly, with gasoline that isn't much though.

    If you think of an engine as a heat engine it makes more sense how methanol fueled turbo'd dragsters can run with no intercooler for thousands of horsepower. The latent heat of methanol removes so much heat while being compressed, that an intercooler becomes a restriction, also the octane of the fuel can resist combustion properly at those heats and pressures. It's no different for 91 octane, just a lower thermal limit. It is all 100% about heat management.

    What we will learn from these dyno's is how much opening up the exhaust helps the engine's VE above 400hp, where we have been finding problems on stock frames. If the head was a major restriction before is the only way that these will make similar numbers to RB.

    Sorry for the long post. Waiting on Western Blots.

  10. #85
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    You're only octane limited at those airflow levels because of the heads VE compounded by the VE restriction of the stock manifold increasing cylinder temperatures and as such knock. A different turbo system is going to change the VE tables of the engine substantially, so you really cannot compare to anything based on the stock frame turbos.

    Something I learned once that really helps me visualize things, and I think would really help you too @themyst and others following this thread as you are very versed in cars, I may have said it before but it's a good example. Internal combustion engines, including diesels, are heat engines. It is virtually all that matters. That being said... think some parts through with that mindset.

    1) An aircharge comes in 2) It combusts when it is exposed to enough heat and pressure, or helped by a spark. 3) Some of that energy pushes the piston down, the rest exits the engine as waste. A turbo is a heat recycler, running off wasted heat.

    All of this energy is conserved throughout. Adding heat to the intake charge will increase heat as the charge is compressed, leading to a faster combustion (thus the need for intercooling or higher octane to prevent knock). How fast an engine can cycle fresh aircharge with old is considered the VE of the engine. If you block the exhaust, heat will linger in the chamber, increasing fresh aircharge temperature and increasing knock same as if the heat was from the intake. If you open the exhaust fully, then the restriction becomes the head design. Since RB's are stock frame, they had virtually the same restriction as stock, thus the same thermal limits are encountered from residual heat in the combustion chamber (more, actually, due to the increase power). This manifold will substantially increase engine VE to closer to the engines maximum natural VE as limited by head design, by increasing scavenging of heat from the cylinder you could say.

    Gasoline of X octane can only take so much heat before it combusts. By using a DI system, you delay this because the fuel charge takes nearly 90% of its latent heat out of the aircharge as it phase changes as opposed to cylinder walls, heads, intakes, etc. Sadly, with gasoline that isn't much though.

    If you think of an engine as a heat engine it makes more sense how methanol fueled turbo'd dragsters can run with no intercooler for thousands of horsepower. The latent heat of methanol removes so much heat while being compressed, that an intercooler becomes a restriction, also the octane of the fuel can resist combustion properly at those heats and pressures. It's no different for 91 octane, just a lower thermal limit. It is all 100% about heat management.

    What we will learn from these dyno's is how much opening up the exhaust helps the engine's VE above 400hp, where we have been finding problems on stock frames. If the head was a major restriction before is the only way that these will make similar numbers to RB.

    Sorry for the long post. Waiting on Western Blots.
    Wasn't trying to compare these twins to a set of RB's. The only reason I used Rb's as a baseline is due to the fact you can't make big reliable power out of them on pump gas, certainly not the levels given the fuel they need to hit 500whp.

    My point is for similar maximum numbers given the increased airflow characteristics of these stage 3s, you need adequate octane to accomplish that.

  11. #86
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Airflow is one thing, backpressure and heat another when it comes to octane..stock/hybrid turbos are simply more prone to knock at lower boost levels as already discussed by the ST camp
    Backpressure is far less on RB's compared to stock turbos due to the larger turbine, which is why as you said, they're less knock prone than stockers. Given the stage 3 hardware i surmise this issue will be even less of a factor. Point is you are still octane limited at the end of the day regardless of what blower you slap on it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Car has nothing near stock run flats on it. I honestly hate these forums sometimes, people just assume and assume and assume assume. Also comparing these things to running RB's on 91 is like comparing apples to oranges. RB's are limited in HP no matter what fuel, timing, boost you throw at them. These are not. I am really starting to rethink my strategy for anything else we build. Just build it, don't say anything and post numbers. All this nitpicking, really don't care for it.

    Signing out of this convo, I got too much other stuff to do. D feel free to post for me. You might have more time on your hands then I do.
    Thats what forums are all about. You take the good with the bad thats the nature of the business. We haven't given you a hard time since you've been for the most part transparent about status updates and progress.

    But you need to understand you are on a FORUM. We never take things at face value. Go look at any other forum, its all the same thing. You may not like what you perceive to be pettiness but at the end of the day these are all questions someone may ask you face to face.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Wasn't trying to compare these twins to a set of RB's. The only reason I used Rb's as a baseline is due to the fact you can't make big reliable power out of them on pump gas, certainly not the levels given the fuel they need to hit 500whp.

    My point is for similar maximum numbers given the increased airflow characteristics of these stage 3s, you need adequate octane to accomplish that.
    So many assumptions Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  14. #89
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Backpressure is far less on RB's compared to stock turbos due to the larger turbine, which is why as you said, they're less knock prone than stockers. Given the stage 3 hardware i surmise this issue will be even less of a factor. Point is you are still octane limited at the end of the day regardless of what blower you slap on it.
    Everything is always octane limited. I don't have time to argue these time waster posts today sorry, just really busy...
    Click here to enlarge

  15. #90
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Thats what forums are all about. You take the good with the bad thats the nature of the business. We haven't given you a hard time since you've been for the most part transparent about status updates and progress.

    But you need to understand you are on a FORUM. We never take things at face value. Go look at any other forum, its all the same thing. You may not like what you perceive to be pettiness but at the end of the day these are all questions someone may ask you face to face.
    One also has a choice of answering or not answering a question too especially when the one asking the question is full of assumptions turned facts.
    Click here to enlarge

  16. #91
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Backpressure is far less on RB's compared to stock turbos due to the larger turbine, which is why as you said, they're less knock prone than stockers. Given the stage 3 hardware i surmise this issue will be even less of a factor. Point is you are still octane limited at the end of the day regardless of what blower you slap on it.
    Very true. But probably higher than most people suspect when compared to stock and stock frame turbo's. The main reason why I'm looking forward to the 91 is to evaluate the rest of the engine flow characteristics versus what we already know under a real world example. The only way you would max these turbo's on 91 would be to drastically increase the engine RPM.

    My post wasn't meant to be directed at you, simply to address the root of many interrelated questions for anybody interested.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Everything is always octane limited. I don't have time to argue these time waster posts today sorry, just really busy...
    Might want to backtrack and read what my original statement was. Sounds like you wanted to start an argument for the sake of arguing.

    Post 78.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Might want to backtrack and read what my original statement was. Sounds like you wanted to start an argument for the sake of arguing.
    A lot of your statements above are simply based on assumptions based on what's been said before around these forums... Let's not do that, all i'm asking for. Now that I actually get to see things happen with a bigger than stock frame turbos, things in general are looking quite different than you might think or assume
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Might want to backtrack and read what my original statement was. Sounds like you wanted to start an argument for the sake of arguing.

    Post 78.
    Post 78 was fundamentally flawed though... I mean your intention was right on, but

    you're octane limited at those airflow levels
    waaat? airflow has nothing to do with octane... simply power potential

    similar to how we cant make too much over 400 safely on RB's with pump gas, even more so for ACN91.

    CR needs to be dropped for starters


    Did you even read my post before you quoted it?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    One also has a choice of answering or not answering a question too especially when the one asking the question is full of assumptions turned facts.
    The vendor absolutely has that right, which isn't the case here. We are dealing with a vendor publicly stating he can't handle the forums, well it is the nature of the business. You know it, Shiv knows it, terry knows it, EVERY vendor knows it.

    We can only discuss what information was given to us. You give us very little, its hard not to make assumptions. Think back to the old days when you picked apart everything Shiv posted.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Post 78 was fundamentally flawed though... I mean your intention was right on, but



    waaat? airflow has nothing to do with octane... simply power potential



    Did you even read my post before you quoted it?
    Power levels you are right, thanks for catching that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    The vendor absolutely has that right, which isn't the case here. We are dealing with a vendor publicly stating he can't handle the forums, well it is the nature of the business. You know it, Shiv knows it, terry knows it, EVERY vendor knows it.

    We can only discuss what information was given to us. You give us very little, its hard not to make assumptions. Think back to the old days when you picked apart everything Shiv posted.
    I picked it apart because I was "RUNNING" the setup I was talking about, had factual real world data gathered and presented. That is very different my friend.

    Not many vendors CAN handle the forums well having to defend things that sometimes require no defending or haven't even been released yet.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    The vendor absolutely has that right, which isn't the case here. We are dealing with a vendor publicly stating he can't handle the forums, well it is the nature of the business. You know it, Shiv knows it, terry knows it, EVERY vendor knows it.

    We can only discuss what information was given to us. You give us very little, its hard not to make assumptions. Think back to the old days when you picked apart everything Shiv posted.
    We give you very little? We don't have to give you anything. I am posting progress because people are curious, that's the only reason. You guys going bdck and forth does nothing to move things forward.The progress posted now will be numbers. You guys can hem and haw to your hearts content in the mean time. Cheers

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Power levels you are right, thanks for catching that.
    Octane also has nothing to do with power levels either, airflow has to do with power potential sorry if that was confusing... octane only deals with heat management on a fundamental level. themyst you're letting me down from your usual self Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I picked it apart because I was "RUNNING" the setup I was talking about, had factual real world data gathered and presented. That is very different my friend.

    Not many vendors CAN handle the forums well having to defend things that sometimes require no defending or haven't even been released yet.
    You ran a FFTEC single turbo?

    Anyway, look back to how this $#@!fest started. You made cute little blanket statements about breaking loose in 3rd gear with nothing else to back it up, similar to how Shiv teases developments. You seriously expected less of a reaction?

    I think I speak for all when we say give us hard data and results, and no one can dispute. Not statements about breaking traction.

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