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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Believe it or not there is very low margin in the SLS BS. It's a matter of pride, hence why I respect AMG for it. I also respect them for always giving us all the Black Series cars even if they lose money on them.

    BMW doesn't respect us, they treat us like sheep. I'm over it. I'm stick of fighting their enthusiast battle for them.
    There is no margin in any BS, they are built for a handful of enthusiest and built as a marketing tool tomsell other AMG and non AMG Mercedes. It is called a loss leader, google the term.

    MB has it figured out, BMW used to have it figured out but they have become content and now they are slipping.
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    1000+WHP WEISTEC 2008 CLK63 Black Series
    790WHP WEISTEC 2012 C63 Black Series
    725WHP WEISTEC 2014 SLS Black Series

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    There is no margin in any BS, they are built for a handful of enthusiest and built as a marketing tool tomsell other AMG and non AMG Mercedes. It is called a loss leader, google the term.
    Like I said, they show they have pride in their product by building it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    MB has it figurednout, BMW used to have it figuredmout but they have become content and now they are slipping.
    I've been sounding the alarm for a while. Nobody has listened.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Believe it or not there is very low margin in the SLS BS. It's a matter of pride, hence why I respect AMG for it. I also respect them for always giving us all the Black Series cars even if they lose money on them.
    Race on Sunday, sell on Monday (as it were).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Inconspicuous Click here to enlarge
    I'm cheating, because you couldn't buy it here. But she is a looker.

    Attachment 27395

    I always thought this Mercedes body style was ugly. It must just be me.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Maybe BMW just does not care about the American market, no CSL, no GTS....just their run of the mill M cars here in the states. With mecedes you can opt for a C63 or up the ante to the uber enthusiest Black Series, Audi you can opt for an S5 or the higher performing an more rare RS5. AMG has built a mystique arounf the Black Series name, in just a few year the words "Black Series" has become a household name for enthusiests.

    Now lets discuss BMWs answer to the AMG SLS.........or SLS Black Series....where are the BMW marketing people??? AMG has a waiting list a mile long with peoplemwanting to plunkmdown $300,000 for an SLS BS, you think anyone at BMW has taken notice? Where is BMWs answer to the Audi R8?
    BMW does care about it's US market. Once again, the US F10 M5 has a manual transmission option. The reason the CSL, the CRT, the M3 Evo, and the M3 GTS never made it to the US is because of the crash testing and high costs involved to make them road legal in the US. I guess to BMW it was not worth it. I can see why. No one would buy it. People would complain about how it lacks in torque, or how it's too loud, or maybe even how it's too track worthy and not a good daily driver. People will nitpick about every possible thing about a car. Look at Z4M sales, the 1M coupe sales, M3 sales vs X5M sales etc and you will see that people who claim this is what they want, are an incredibly small market. The people who hate the X6M don't realize it sells better than the M3. The same people admire the rare true driver enthusiast cars, but never actually buy them. They are just all talk. None of you bought the Z4M, none of you bought the 1M coupe, and none of you probably purchased an E46 M3 ZCP. So, it's really pointless to sit here and explain why BMW will not build them. NO ONE IS BUYING THEM. Sad part is, they are excellent cars.

    Going back to the lightweight Euro only variants, they actually lossed a lot of weight compared to their standard models; so drastic, it would cause them to need to be re crash tested to comply with US standards. The BS weighs 4044 lbs vs the base coupes 3990 according to Edmunds. So yea, so much for that weight loss. The CSL is 400 lbs lighter than my M3 ZCP. Coming in at 3420 my car is a pig compared to the 3094 lb CSL. The M3 GTS weighs 3550 lbs vs the standard coupes 3704. If BMW really wanted to destroy the BS, they could. We would have yet another aftermath of E30 M3 vs 190E. We all know who won that category. It was a bloodbath for Mercedes.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Inconspicuous Click here to enlarge
    Race on Sunday, sell on Monday (as it were).
    Thinking of the 1950's this quote made sense. Now adays, it does nothing. Mercedes was huge in the 1950's with their 300SLR. That car performed phenominally and really made Mercedes a benchmark for the 24 Hours of Le Mans. You could literally go to a Mercedes dealer and purchase your own SLR. That's when racing cars were a direct reflection of sales. Now a days racing cars are not even close to their production siblings. With the exception of some GT cars and the Continental Challenge cars, which are really heavily overlooked compared to the LMP1/2 cars. This term means nothing anymore.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    There is no margin in any BS, they are built for a handful of enthusiest and built as a marketing tool tomsell other AMG and non AMG Mercedes. It is called a loss leader, google the term.

    MB has it figured out, BMW used to have it figured out but they have become content and now they are slipping.
    BMW's so called enthusiasts are not purchasing the rare true driver cars. So why do they need an SLR competitor? Why do they need a V12 to compete with the 65's? There is no point. BMW's loss, comes from the M division. They have been hammered since the beginning. Their sales always drop in the end. There is BMW's losing market right there. As I said before, we should be glad to even have the opportunity to purchase M cars.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Like I said, they show they have pride in their product by building it.



    I've been sounding the alarm for a while. Nobody has listened.
    How many other M cars have you purchased prior to your E92? BMW's are still incredibly great cars. You're over reacting, staring at numbers and figures all day long. Yes, they are potent cars. But they still suffer from flaws as well. I guess you're so blinded by the AMG badge you're losing your vision. I wonder how you felt seeing the ESS M3 vs Weistec C63 race you just posted on the main page? Hm, makes me think. The torqueless, low displacement, heavy, and terrible M3 is able to match it up perfectly.

    So all in all, BMW's are still winning. They may not walk away with the highest hp ratings, or the most wins in magazine articles, but at heart, BMW still builds excellent cars. I look forward to the debut of the new M3 as I plan to purchase it, instead of the E92 M3.
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  5. #30
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    Just want to toss in the discussion that car manufacturers no longer make their big profits on new car sales but on maintenance and repairs.

    Porsche is proud that the % between 911's ever built and those still in running condition is amongst the highest for any car manufacturer. Shows how important the enthusiasts are because it's those who still keep the cars after the 3 year leases end and continue to invest in them...

    That explains why Porsche keeps fulfilling the wishes of the enthusiasts, except maybe for the price tag.
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  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    I always thought this Mercedes body style was ugly. It must just be me.




    BMW does care about it's US market. Once again, the US F10 M5 has a manual transmission option. The reason the CSL, the CRT, the M3 Evo, and the M3 GTS never made it to the US is because of the crash testing and high costs involved to make them road legal in the US. I guess to BMW it was not worth it. I can see why. No one would buy it. People would complain about how it lacks in torque, or how it's too loud, or maybe even how it's too track worthy and not a good daily driver. People will nitpick about every possible thing about a car. Look at Z4M sales, the 1M coupe sales, M3 sales vs X5M sales etc and you will see that people who claim this is what they want, are an incredibly small market. The people who hate the X6M don't realize it sells better than the M3. The same people admire the rare true driver enthusiast cars, but never actually buy them. They are just all talk. None of you bought the Z4M, none of you bought the 1M coupe, and none of you probably purchased an E46 M3 ZCP. So, it's really pointless to sit here and explain why BMW will not build them. NO ONE IS BUYING THEM. Sad part is, they are excellent cars.

    Going back to the lightweight Euro only variants, they actually lossed a lot of weight compared to their standard models; so drastic, it would cause them to need to be re crash tested to comply with US standards. The BS weighs 4044 lbs vs the base coupes 3990 according to Edmunds. So yea, so much for that weight loss. The CSL is 400 lbs lighter than my M3 ZCP. Coming in at 3420 my car is a pig compared to the 3094 lb CSL. The M3 GTS weighs 3550 lbs vs the standard coupes 3704. If BMW really wanted to destroy the BS, they could. We would have yet another aftermath of E30 M3 vs 190E. We all know who won that category. It was a bloodbath for Mercedes.




    Thinking of the 1950's this quote made sense. Now adays, it does nothing. Mercedes was huge in the 1950's with their 300SLR. That car performed phenominally and really made Mercedes a benchmark for the 24 Hours of Le Mans. You could literally go to a Mercedes dealer and purchase your own SLR. That's when racing cars were a direct reflection of sales. Now a days racing cars are not even close to their production siblings. With the exception of some GT cars and the Continental Challenge cars, which are really heavily overlooked compared to the LMP1/2 cars. This term means nothing anymore.



    BMW's so called enthusiasts are not purchasing the rare true driver cars. So why do they need an SLR competitor? Why do they need a V12 to compete with the 65's? There is no point. BMW's loss, comes from the M division. They have been hammered since the beginning. Their sales always drop in the end. There is BMW's losing market right there. As I said before, we should be glad to even have the opportunity to purchase M cars.



    How many other M cars have you purchased prior to your E92? BMW's are still incredibly great cars. You're over reacting, staring at numbers and figures all day long. Yes, they are potent cars. But they still suffer from flaws as well. I guess you're so blinded by the AMG badge you're losing your vision. I wonder how you felt seeing the ESS M3 vs Weistec C63 race you just posted on the main page? Hm, makes me think. The torqueless, low displacement, heavy, and terrible M3 is able to match it up perfectly.

    So all in all, BMW's are still winning. They may not walk away with the highest hp ratings, or the most wins in magazine articles, but at heart, BMW still builds excellent cars. I look forward to the debut of the new M3 as I plan to purchase it, instead of the E92 M3.
    So you are OK with BMW settling for second or third or fourth best? The point people are making is at one point not too long ago BMW was the dominant force, now MB, Audi are beating them big and companies like Ford and Chevy which would never be mentioned in the same sentence as BMW are even nipping at their heels with vehicles like the ZL1, the Boss 302 and Shelby GT500, and BMW offered nothing to compete with standard Corvette let alone a Z06 or the might ZR1.

    One just needs to take a peek at the years lightening lap results to see How far BMW has fallen from grace.....they got beat by a $#@!ing Jaguar, need I say more?
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    1000+WHP WEISTEC 2008 CLK63 Black Series
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    725WHP WEISTEC 2014 SLS Black Series

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    You know, I am a huge fan of Porsche and have been for more years than BMW. However, here's what I will say about that. 911's are excellent cars. Great quality, great performance, and offer an impeccable amount of ways to customize your 911. However, with the exception of the Cayman and Boxster, every other 911 has increased performance, increased their efficiency, and also increased their price. What you pay for a well optioned Carrera base now, is what the 911 GT3 based cost in 2007. Nearly identical performance figures albeit, but the GT3 is something, better. So with the added performance and efficiency, you now have a car that costs nearly 1/3 more than a previous gen. Compare the new prices of the 996's. You could have a well optioned 996 Carrera for under $80k and a Turbo for somewhere between $90k to $100k. Now a days if you don't bring $130k to the table, you're just barely climbing into 911 Turbo range. So, with that added performance, there's a cost; and it's a hefty cost.

    BMW on the other hand, has increased its range of efficiency, increased performance, and on the negative side, increased weight marginally. As expected, BMW is trying to find ways to get the weight under control. It shows with their moves in Carbon engineering with Boeing and their aluminum plants vigorously trying to find ways to cut costs on aluminum production.

    We must understand that while we want these fast cars, the manufacturers developing them are still major businesses. They rely on money and a well established economy to make money. Right now, it's costing a lot of money to manufacture cars in an awful economy. I would expect Porsche to be able to figure out ways to save weight as their cars are geared towards a much lower demographic. BMW sells probably 3 times as many 3 series as Porsche 911's. Something to think about.

    Now, on a personal note. I have driven a couple 996 911's, a 2009 997 C4S, a couple of Boxsters and a 06 Cayman S. Neither of which did I really fall in love with. At the time I drove the 996, I owned a 350Z. While the interior quality was better, the ride was too soft compared to my Z. The car did not turn as well and this is just driving around. The suspension absorbed bumps better, but the settings I felt were too soft for a performance oriented 911.

    I drove a Cayman S a few years later. Love the look and styling of the Cayman S, but I am still not sold on them. Something about it. At this time I owned my current E46 M3. Something about it just was not right. I don't know what it is, or how to describe the feeling but it did not give me that smile like my M3 does. This one even was modified with an exhaust for that pure boxer 6 sound. It didn't lack in feel, but something about it I just did not like more than my M3. Maybe it was because I am over 2 seaters after owning my M3. But I was in it and comfortable.

    A week or two after driving this, I drove the 997 C4S. A 2008 model. I loved looking at this car, and once again something about when I drove it I just did not like. Maybe it was the $66k price tag. But it was not nearly as engaging as my $30k M3. It didn't have that intake sound my M3 has. It did not have the power my M3 had. Mind you it was an 08 and in 2009 they bumped the power to 385. Something about this 911 was missing.

    Now that we're finished explaining my lack of experience in Porsche's, let's focus on the enthusiasts. The 996 to me was a huge let down. I remember days when I sat up thinking of how lovely it would be when I own one and how awesome that car will be. Then I drove it. I felt like James May when he finally drove the Countach. Completely let down. I left driving that car like, that's it? I figured you know what, Porsche is by far my number 2 favorite brand, let's try some others. Then drove the Cayman. Once again, I was let down. I said you know what, I love the 997/987, let's try the Carrera S with some power. Once again, I was let down. To me, for the cost, every last gen 911 S, will cost the same as a brand new M3. The current 911, is always too expensive to be considered a true rival for the M3. Although they are cross shopped, should the buyer purchase the 911, it will be a previous gen 911 every time. In my eyes, with the M cars you get a very well refined car that is well put together, performance oriented, spacious, ergonomical, and beautiful. With every 911, it's the same, but the price is always higher. Too many options. For instance, why am I paying $400 for you to remove the Porsche badge on my 911? To me they are better.

    I will have to say, I agree with you both on the fact that Porsche stays true to their enthusiasts. I cannot argue with something I agree with. I've always wanted to own a Porsche for this simple fact but just have not found the right one. The drastic change to water cooled changed them forever, however, enabled them to go to levels they have never seen before. But I can also see this view from BMW's standpoint.

    Concerning the 3.8l and 475 hp. If you truly believe that is conservative, you're out of your mind. The 3.8l is on it's last leg hp wise. The only option for more power is 4.0 in the standard GT3, and bump the RS up to 4.5 and then you're maxxed out displacement wise. The 4.0 is literally maxxed out. 13.1:1 c/r and still able to run pump gas? That's incredible, but unless you're tuned and running race fuel, there is no more power to be made. RUF has built a 4.5l RGT-8, and it makes 550 hp. That's nearly maxxed out, unless there is some design or engineering flaw I am unaware of. There is only so much more power they can add to the 911 GT3.

    I am done with my spiel. I do have to admit though, I am in love with Porsche a little less than BMW but it's still a ridiculous amount. Porsche is my next move.
    Thanks for your detailed reply.

    Yes, Porsche does raise the pricing on each gen, but then so does BMW. I recall sitting in a stripped E46 M3 with a $50k sticker price back in '02 or '03. Now a stripped E92 M3 runs you $64k. Porsche also builds their enthusiast product to what they project will sell, as they make a huge margin on each car. Even more for the guys that order leather wrapped this and embossed crest that. I don't recall ever seeing a national sales campaign for year-end deals from Porsche; we get it every year now from BMW.

    As for the 3.8l's 475hp being conservative. I'm going by what the head engineer stated in the interview by evo magazine. We won't really know for sure until the thing hits the dyno when customers take delivery of their cars.

    Seems we have a difference in opinion between whether Porsche is more satisfying to drive than BMW, and that's fine. I drove a 996 C4S before ordering my 335is, and I admit that it wasn't "all that" for me, either. Totally different story with the Cayman. Comparing Porsche to BMW isn't really the point of this thread though, other than your claim that anyone leaving the BMW fold would regret it.

    I have an E30 325ix that I can't seem to bring myself to sell even though it's a total PITA and money pit. But driving it back to back with my E92, I really enjoyed the E30 driving experience more than the E92, even being down 250 hp or more and with the AWD drivetrain that I tend to hate in general except when needed for weather concerns. The E30 tells you everything happening with the road, and responds immediately to inputs. In comparison, the E92 reminds me of the original 'Airplane!' movie: sloppy, like a wet sponge.

    Being fair to BMW, I'm sure the 930 guys feel the same about the later generation 996, 997 and now 991 911's. But while Porsche has kept up with it's contemporary competitors as time has progressed, and indeed continued to raise the bar in their segment, BMW now finds itself being beaten by Merc and Audi. Yes, they have invested in CF and aluminum technologies, but a 4200lb M5 with engine noise piped in through the speakers? My FJ Cruiser weighs less than an M5. Think about that for a moment and tell me honestly that BMW hasn't lost the plot in a big way.
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  8. #33
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    So you are OK with BMW settling for second or third or fourth best? The point people are making is at one point not too long ago BMW was the dominant force, now MB, Audi are beating them big and companies like Ford and Chevy which would never be mentioned in the same sentence as BMW are even nipping at their heels with vehicles like the ZL1, the Boss 302 and Shelby GT500, and BMW offered nothing to compete with standard Corvette let alone a Z06 or the might ZR1.

    One just needs to take a peek at the years lightening lap results to see How far BMW has fallen from grace.....they got beat by a $#@!ing Jaguar, need I say more?
    How are they settling? Once again because of mag times? Because a magazing article said that Mercedes is better? I know BMW has defeated AMG/Mercedes for decades. Why should I be worried when the next M3/4 has not even been released yet? For years these same companies struggled to keep up with BMW. The E92 destroyed everything Audi, Mercedes, GM, and Ford had. Why expect anything less from the F30? In recent years since the E92's launch, it has taken them how many years to be considered a threat? 5 years for Audi since the S4 was not on the same level as the E92 M3, 4 years for Ford and GM since the 11 GT didn't quite cut the cake on lap times, nor does it have the luxurious interior, nor does it have the right suspension, but it does match it in straight line performance. GM's ZL1 is obviously another troll car input because someone suggested having something like a ZR1 but not a ZR1. It took Mercedes 4 years as well to debut something equivalent to the E92 M3 in terms of overall performance. Straight line it's fast, but around a track it lacks.

    I love lightning lap. I love what they do. But what you need to look at, is specific figures from model to model. Finally, the Camaro has been able to compete. The recent 1LE and ZL1 prove that GM has been doing their homework. But, before we jump on that band wagon, BMW's M5 and M6 improved drastically over the E60 variants as well. By an incredible 6 seconds. Previous Gen M6 did a 3:10 lap time at VIR. The F13 does a 3:04. Exactly 5.3 seconds of a difference. And I should be upset? No. One thing that confuses me, is the 4 mph difference in trap speed on the straight. Moving forward. The BS improved over the coupe quite a bit. The C63 Coupe did it in 3:06 to the BS' 2:58.

    So, finally in 2013 they have caught up to BMW. Let's see here, let's try to match previous BMW's that have done the lightning lap that all of you have forgotten in the light of these AMG's.

    C63 Coupe 3:06.3

    1M Coupe 3:06.6

    Hm. That's from 2009. Weird how all of a sudden band wagon jumpers are all over BMW for finally losing something in 2013. Let's dig deeper.

    Oh, I love this one.

    RS4 3:11.2

    B8 S4 3:10.8

    335i 3:10.5

    X5M 3:11.1

    Wonder what happened there? An SUV as quick as their RS4 and S4? I thought they were mighty beasts?

    Next on the list to beat. Going off the new M5/6 times, the new M3 will not have an issue beating this one out. Very fast time indeed though.

    Audi TTRS 3:04.6

    Ford Boss 302 3:02.8

    Ford Mustang GT500 (4)

    3:11.0

    3:07.4

    3:05.9

    3:04.0

    After all of these changes, including the last one finally at 662 hp, you would think it would be a lot easier to muster past the torqueless wonder M3.

    Two M3 times, 3:05.4 and 3:05.6. I have all the issues, and the reason for the rerun was because they felt the DCT trans on the 3:05.6 run was malfuctioning so the following year they ran another DCT and ran the 3:05.4. For a car built and sold in 2007 for Euro markets and 2008 for the US market. I say not bad at all.

    Yes there are some other cars that are faster. For instance some Vettes, the CLS63 was even faster than the M3, but the point is, it doesn't matter. BMW is still building excellent cars. Hopefully using these lap times you will see some light and that BMW is not doing bad at all. Let the new M3/4 debut and then begin your assessment. Until then, you're comparing 2011 cars to one built in 2007. Four year difference. The M3 is the benchmark, so yes, eventually other manufacturers will catch up, another M3 will debut, they will struggle, and finally catch back up again. It's a cycle and happens every M3 model change. The standard 3 series segment is always, always a close a battle. In that aspect, you really cannot go wrong with any of them. They are all great. It's like shopping for a motorcycle. Pick a color, options, and ride.
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  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for your detailed reply.

    Yes, Porsche does raise the pricing on each gen, but then so does BMW. I recall sitting in a stripped E46 M3 with a $50k sticker price back in '02 or '03. Now a stripped E92 M3 runs you $64k. Porsche also builds their enthusiast product to what they project will sell, as they make a huge margin on each car. Even more for the guys that order leather wrapped this and embossed crest that. I don't recall ever seeing a national sales campaign for year-end deals from Porsche; we get it every year now from BMW.

    As for the 3.8l's 475hp being conservative. I'm going by what the head engineer stated in the interview by evo magazine. We won't really know for sure until the thing hits the dyno when customers take delivery of their cars.

    Seems we have a difference in opinion between whether Porsche is more satisfying to drive than BMW, and that's fine. I drove a 996 C4S before ordering my 335is, and I admit that it wasn't "all that" for me, either. Totally different story with the Cayman. Comparing Porsche to BMW isn't really the point of this thread though, other than your claim that anyone leaving the BMW fold would regret it.

    I have an E30 325ix that I can't seem to bring myself to sell even though it's a total PITA and money pit. But driving it back to back with my E92, I really enjoyed the E30 driving experience more than the E92, even being down 250 hp or more and with the AWD drivetrain that I tend to hate in general except when needed for weather concerns. The E30 tells you everything happening with the road, and responds immediately to inputs. In comparison, the E92 reminds me of the original 'Airplane!' movie: sloppy, like a wet sponge.

    Being fair to BMW, I'm sure the 930 guys feel the same about the later generation 996, 997 and now 991 911's. But while Porsche has kept up with it's contemporary competitors as time has progressed, and indeed continued to raise the bar in their segment, BMW now finds itself being beaten by Merc and Audi. Yes, they have invested in CF and aluminum technologies, but a 4200lb M5 with engine noise piped in through the speakers? My FJ Cruiser weighs less than an M5. Think about that for a moment and tell me honestly that BMW hasn't lost the plot in a big way.
    I really do wish I would have flaunted the 335i I drove around more. January of last year I found myself, like always, car shopping. Had my eyes, mind, and heart set on an E46 M3. Fresh home from a deployment ready to buy. My wife strongly suggested I test drive some other cars to be sure. I test drove 3 or 4 E46 M3's in one day at the same place. Headed down to Carmax, and drove a 335i. Auto trans with low miles. I will admit, I only drove it on the highway and kept the revs below 4-5k. I never felt a spongy feeling. I hear a lot of people mention how spongy they feel, but not once did I feel that way. I should have driven it longer and really put it through its paces. Really do wish I did.

    I know I said people will regret it, but now I am beginning to regret saying it. Not everyone will drive how I drive, or drive what I like so it can be true for some but not true for others. I can't dictate what you would like to drive or tell you what you would like to drive. Only you know that. But like I said, I love Porsche too much to say anything bad about them, but I just have not found the right one.

    It's funny you mention the E30. I have this weird love, for a red, has to be red with tan interior, 4 door, E36 325i. I have no idea why, but I am absolutely in love with them for some reason. Something about them. Something about the smile I get when I'm flogging that 180 hp engine along, I just love it. Sure my M3 is a lot faster. Sure my M3 looks better, but something about having a red E36 325i, in my driveway next to my E46 puts a smile on my face every time. So I see where you're coming from with your E30.
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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    BMW does care about it's US market.
    As evidenced by the CSL they made sure we had. As evidenced by the GTS they made sure we had. As evidenced by the CRT they made sure we had. As evidenced by the diesel M cars they made sure we had. As evidenced by... um, what? We're skipped over on EVERYTHING enthusiast related. Oh, yay, we get the M3 limerock edition which is just a kick to the balls.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    US is because of the crash testing and high costs involved to make them road legal in the US.
    Yes Porsche pulls it off with the GT3 RS, Audi with the TT-RS, and AMG with all the Black Series cars? It's an excuse for them to not spend money and that shows their priority is dollars over the enthusiast. WAKE UP.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    That car performed phenominally and really made Mercedes a benchmark for the 24 Hours of Le Mans.
    Mercedes has been out of Le Mans as a sign of respect to those lost in the infamous Le Mans crash decades ago. They are in something called Formula 1 though that BMW quit.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    BMW's so called enthusiasts are not purchasing the rare true driver cars. So why do they need an SLR competitor?
    The SLR isn't even production any longer. But BMW doesn't need a $500k car. How about they start with, oh, even a lowly Z4 M? They race one in ALMS but don't build one for actual sale. They circumvent the rules, it's pathetic.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    How many other M cars have you purchased prior to your E92? BMW's are still incredibly great cars. You're over reacting
    I'm on my fourth BMW. My first M car was an E46 M3. That was the last, true, great M car and when BMW was on top. I'm not over-reacting at all. You simply don't get how far they have fallen off.

    As I said, take a look at the S65 motor and look at how cheap BMW went with parts. They could have made it dry sump, they didn't. They could have used higher quality parts, they didn't. They mass produced it as cheaply as possible and it isn't up to their own standards.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    So all in all, BMW's are still winning. They may not walk away with the highest hp ratings, or the most wins in magazine articles, but at heart, BMW still builds excellent cars. I look forward to the debut of the new M3 as I plan to purchase it, instead of the E92 M3.
    No, BMW is starting to lose hard. They are losing comparisons. The cars have gotten incredibly fat. They have gone cheap using the same motors in multiple cars and just changing the software and not even the hardware as the 320i and 328i show. It's bad, you just don't get how bad it is.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    I always thought this Mercedes body style was ugly. It must just be me.
    We can't all have good design sense. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Thinking of the 1950's this quote made sense. Now adays, it does nothing. Mercedes was huge in the 1950's with their 300SLR. That car performed phenominally and really made Mercedes a benchmark for the 24 Hours of Le Mans. You could literally go to a Mercedes dealer and purchase your own SLR. That's when racing cars were a direct reflection of sales. Now a days racing cars are not even close to their production siblings. With the exception of some GT cars and the Continental Challenge cars, which are really heavily overlooked compared to the LMP1/2 cars. This term means nothing anymore.
    Does the term "tongue-in-cheek" still mean something?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    As evidenced by the CSL they made sure we had. As evidenced by the GTS they made sure we had. As evidenced by the CRT they made sure we had. As evidenced by the diesel M cars they made sure we had. As evidenced by... um, what? We're skipped over on EVERYTHING enthusiast related. Oh, yay, we get the M3 limerock edition which is just a kick to the balls.



    Yes Porsche pulls it off with the GT3 RS, Audi with the TT-RS, and AMG with all the Black Series cars? It's an excuse for them to not spend money and that shows their priority is dollars over the enthusiast. WAKE UP.



    Mercedes has been out of Le Mans as a sign of respect to those lost in the infamous Le Mans crash decades ago. They are in something called Formula 1 though that BMW quit.



    The SLR isn't even production any longer. But BMW doesn't need a $500k car. How about they start with, oh, even a lowly Z4 M? They race one in ALMS but don't build one for actual sale. They circumvent the rules, it's pathetic.



    I'm on my fourth BMW. My first M car was an E46 M3. That was the last, true, great M car and when BMW was on top. I'm not over-reacting at all. You simply don't get how far they have fallen off.

    As I said, take a look at the S65 motor and look at how cheap BMW went with parts. They could have made it dry sump, they didn't. They could have used higher quality parts, they didn't. They mass produced it as cheaply as possible and it isn't up to their own standards.



    No, BMW is starting to lose hard. They are losing comparisons. The cars have gotten incredibly fat. They have gone cheap using the same motors in multiple cars and just changing the software and not even the hardware as the 320i and 328i show. It's bad, you just don't get how bad it is.
    Good thing that 190E Evolution made it here, or the RS2, or the RS4 avant, or let's even mention some stripper Mercedes....Um, um, there are none with the exception of the BS and the 190E. Where's the rest of them? In that link the guy posted that never came to the US. Get over it, every Euro manufacturer does it. Ford doesn't sell a Mustang in the UK. Their best damn car.

    Over to Le Mans. Mercedes made a comeback in 1999. Surprisingly, the same year the BMW LMR took the win. Hm, what happened to Mercedes. Oh, they were banned from racing because they could not figure out their cars aerodynamics. Two bad crashes. Yup, google it.

    Here's a question Sticky. Where's the market at for these cars? Have you seen the Z4's sales lately? They are selling a mere 2k per year? Why homologate that car? Why? It does not make sense. The sales are too low for them to consider it. The same thing went for the previous gen Z4, except they tried it, and failed. Sales for the Z4M were terribly low. So it's not a smart decision. The driver's cars, no one is buying them. But yet, it's all people want them to build. Like I said, at least we have M cars.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Good thing that 190E Evolution made it here, or the RS2, or the RS4 avant, or let's even mention some stripper Mercedes....
    It's 2013.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Over to Le Mans. Mercedes made a comeback in 1999. Surprisingly, the same year the BMW LMR took the win. Hm, what happened to Mercedes. Oh, they were banned from racing because they could not figure out their cars aerodynamics. Two bad crashes. Yup, google it.
    Um GT class rules changed so production based cars could be used so private teams entered Mercedes GT cars. This has what to do with competing in LMP1 categories? Wow, what a great point.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Here's a question Sticky. Where's the market at for these cars? Have you seen the Z4's sales lately?
    That's the WHOLE POINT. All BMW cares about is sales, they have no pride. They sold off their testicles and now they are just a bunch of money grubbing women. Mercedes still sells the high margin cars but still has enough pride to offer enthusiast vehicles that compete on the highest level. You know, the kind of cars M used to give us centered around the driving experience?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Sales for the Z4M were terribly low. So it's not a smart decision.
    Then don't be hypocrites and race what you don't sell when everyone else actually does.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's 2013.



    Um GT class rules changed so production based cars could be used so private teams entered Mercedes GT cars. This has what to do with competing in LMP1 categories? Wow, what a great point.



    That's the WHOLE POINT. All BMW cares about is sales, they have no pride. They sold off their testicles and now they are just a bunch of money grubbing women. Mercedes still sells the high margin cars but still has enough pride to offer enthusiast vehicles that compete on the highest level. You know, the kind of cars M used to give us centered around the driving experience?



    Then don't be hypocrites and race what you don't sell when everyone else actually does.

    Sticky, sticky, sticky.... You clearly said, Mercedes has not made a comeback to Le Mans in decades since the crash in 1955 that killed a lot and injured a lot. I was simply stating without saying, Mercedes did indeed make a comeback in 1999, and failed miserably. The same year BMW won.

    You're mentioning Mercedes and enthusaists as if they have done this their entire time in the auto industry. Why is there no manual option for the C63? I get it for the Ferrari. I even understand it on the new GT3. Why is there no manual option for the base C63 coupe, if it's so much geared towards enthusiasts?

    Yes, I realize it's 2013, but wtf have they been doing the past 5 decades? Aboslutely nothing. It's my point. BMW has been on top for how long? And I'm going to band wagon jump on Mercedes dick because they all of a sudden have their bricks in the right spot? No. I'm not going to. When they prove they can claim records in production sales, DTM championships, Magazine titles, Le Mans, 24 Hours of the Nurburgring, WSBK titles, motorcycle production sales, ALMS, F1 and whatever else BMW does better than them and has been doing better. Then maybe I will consider them a threat. Until then, Mercedes is merely closing a very large gap between them and BMW. Audi, on the other hand is a lot closer than Mercedes.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Sticky, sticky, sticky.... You clearly said, Mercedes has not made a comeback to Le Mans in decades since the crash in 1955 that killed a lot and injured a lot. I was simply stating without saying, Mercedes did indeed make a comeback in 1999, and failed miserably. The same year BMW won.
    Ya because that's true. You yourself bringing up the BMW overall victory clearly means a full fledged factory effort to win it doesn't it? So the last time Mercedes did that was the year of the crash which resulted in a self-imposed ban. Don't try to play Motorsport historian with me.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    You're mentioning Mercedes and enthusaists as if they have done this their entire time in the auto industry. Why is there no manual option for the C63? I get it for the Ferrari. I even understand it on the new GT3. Why is there no manual option for the base C63 coupe, if it's so much geared towards enthusiasts?
    Exactly my point. Mercedes-Benz is catering to enthusiasts better TODAY. You are living BMW's past.

    No manual option for the C63, yep. They still aren't perfect. But the SLS and Black Series have DCT's...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Yes, I realize it's 2013, but wtf have they been doing the past 5 decades? Aboslutely nothing. It's my point. BMW has been on top for how long?
    BMW WAS on top. They fell off. It's over.

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    And I forgot to bring up another topic. How is the S65 cheap? The S65 is an excellent engine compared to the S54. You always talk about how terrible it is. At least you don't have to worry about when your next valve adjustment is. Or if those Vanos bolts might eek out the next time you hit 8600 rpm. Your problems with the S65 are so small it's quite ridiculous. Complain about the 997.1's IMS, the 996's IMS/RMS, complain about the VQ35's oil consumption, the LS3's oil issues, the LS2's oil issues, the LSA's heat soaking, Audi's 4.2 V8 and its carbon buildup, etc. All these engines have real issues. Get over the small little bit of torque issues you have with your engine. The S65 is an excellent engine bar none.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    And I forgot to bring up another topic. How is the S65 cheap?
    Where to begin... no dry sump. Block material flexes. Factory oiling system SUCKS. Struggles to keep the freaking bearings oiled under high cornering. The tight bore spacing leaves little material.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    The S65 is an excellent engine compared to the S54.
    As long as you don't push it. The S54 is the better forced induction platform. The S54 was built to a higher standard.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    You always talk about how terrible it is. At least you don't have to worry about when your next valve adjustment is. Or if those Vanos bolts might eek out the next time you hit 8600 rpm.
    Um no I talk about how awesome the S65 is. You just haven't seen the disassembly versus the S54. The S65 is a mass produced motor and the quality of materials isn't up to BMW's own standard. It's architecture allows great power due to its redline, heads, etc., but I'm disappointed with how cheap BMW went with it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Your problems with the S65 are so small it's quite ridiculous.
    Um I've had to spend how much time and money getting that motor right? Ya, small problems. Uh, huh.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Get over the small little bit of torque issues you have with your engine. The S65 is an excellent engine bar none.
    It's an awesome motor as I always state it is. But it isn't torque issues that are the problem.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Where to begin... no dry sump. Block material flexes. Factory oiling system SUCKS. Struggles to keep the freaking bearings oiled under high cornering. The tight bore spacing leaves little material.



    As long as you don't push it. The S54 is the better forced induction platform. The S54 was built to a higher standard.



    Um no I talk about how awesome the S65 is. You just haven't seen the disassembly versus the S54. The S65 is a mass produced motor and the quality of materials isn't up to BMW's own standard. It's architecture allows great power due to its redline, heads, etc., but I'm disappointed with how cheap BMW went with it.



    Um I've had to spend how much time and money getting that motor right? Ya, small problems. Uh, huh.



    It's an awesome motor as I always state it is. But it isn't torque issues that are the problem.
    I can't win this argument with you. Obviously you have a lot more experience when it comes to the S65. However, in terms of stock form, I do not see an issue. When it comes to F/I and high hp, I do not doubt even for a second, what you're saying is incorrect. I do wish that BMW stuck with a dry sump setup, as for track cars, it's really a big deal. A lot of people track M3's and I see it as a huge benefit. I agree with you there. As mentioned earlier, it's the same issues the LS2 and LS3's are having on track days. Oil not scavenging through properly and causing them to run dry and pop goes the bearings.

    How are you handling your F/I oil issues? Are these issues only because you're shooting for 700+hp? I know the S54 is a lot more basic, than the F1/S85 derived S65 is, but the S65 cannot possibly be worse than the S54. I just cannot see how or why. More displacement, less vulnerabilities, and a better flowing system.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    I can't win this argument with you.
    No you can not.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Obviously you have a lot more experience when it comes to the S65. However, in terms of stock form, I do not see an issue. When it comes to F/I and high hp, I do not doubt even for a second, what you're saying is incorrect. I do wish that BMW stuck with a dry sump setup, as for track cars, it's really a big deal.
    Let's forget forced induction and even just to the track performance that the M3 is supposed to be good at. The oiling system is severely under-par even for that. The cooling system for the DCT even though it puts out more heat is the exact same thing as the manual transmission and simply not up to par. This is BMW M we're talking about?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    How are you handling your F/I oil issues? Are these issues only because you're shooting for 700+hp? I know the S54 is a lot more basic, than the F1/S85 derived S65 is, but the S65 cannot possibly be worse than the S54. I just cannot see how or why. More displacement, less vulnerabilities, and a better flowing system.
    Upgraded pumps, better bearings, better cooling. But really I should be going dry sump but I don't want to spend another $7k and wait around for 6 more months. The S65 when it comes to being built to handle big HP is worse than the S54. The S65 when it comes to naturally aspirated potential craps all over the S54.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    997.1's IMS, the 996's IMS/RMS.
    True on the Carrera and 986/987 models at that time, not true on the Turbo and GT* cars that ran the Mezger block that was developed for the LeMans winning GT1. Mezger-engined cars are practically bullet-proof, even pushing 200-300hp more than their stock output levels. Certainly a price tier above an M3 to get that motor, but it shows that Porsche makes that level of engineering available to their customers, while BMW doesn't.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Good thing that 190E Evolution made it here, or the RS2, or the RS4 avant, or let's even mention some stripper Mercedes....Um, um, there are none with the exception of the BS and the 190E. Where's the rest of them? In that link the guy posted that never came to the US. Get over it, every Euro manufacturer does it. Ford doesn't sell a Mustang in the UK. Their best damn car.

    Over to Le Mans. Mercedes made a comeback in 1999. Surprisingly, the same year the BMW LMR took the win. Hm, what happened to Mercedes. Oh, they were banned from racing because they could not figure out their cars aerodynamics. Two bad crashes. Yup, google it.

    Here's a question Sticky. Where's the market at for these cars? Have you seen the Z4's sales lately? They are selling a mere 2k per year? Why homologate that car? Why? It does not make sense. The sales are too low for them to consider it. The same thing went for the previous gen Z4, except they tried it, and failed. Sales for the Z4M were terribly low. So it's not a smart decision. The driver's cars, no one is buying them. But yet, it's all people want them to build. Like I said, at least we have M cars.

    I have read through all of this thread - and I completely understand your POV (I think)... In the last paragraph - where you mention the Z4M - that's the part I think you are missing. Yes, it might cost BMW more money to not make a Z4 with an S65 shoved in it - pay for all the needed testing, legal issues, etc. and instead make a Z4 sDrive35is as the high performance "alternative". You are most likely accurate in that they have probably analyzed the cost vs. sales of doing both - and have used that analysis to choose to build/sell 5000 Z4 sDrive35is instead of build/sell 1000 Z4 Ms with an S65 (made up numbers)...

    That's the entire problem. I WANT to buy an M roadster or coupe. In fact, if I were buying another BMW right now - today - for track/weekend use, I would LOVE BMW to offer me this choice. However, they unfortunately do not; because they have decided that most people are fine with the adequate power they are getting with the N54/55 and are also fine with the non-M-yet-good-enough-sport-suspension... They know people will buy these cars over say an S65 powered M Z4 costing much more. They know what will sell, what won't and what costs what - there is no denying this. However - they are not thinking of the true enthusiast any longer IMO. If you look back 5-10 years ago, we had an S54 powered coupe, an S54 powered Z4 Coupe and Roadster and these things are mechanical jewels... Independent throttle bodies, high revving almost bulletproof engine you could use everyday - and still take to the track on the weekends without issue. A suspension that works wonders on the street or track - one that might be overly stiff for some people, and might give magazines reason to complain - but someone knowing what M stands for will not care, and shouldn't. They are getting the best car for track/street (for a rational price) - not just a good car + another 1 psi of boost thrown in.

    Today, we have an array of cars that are "sporty" but not up to par with what I would equate with a BMW M should be. We have special designations, like the "1M", or the "is" or the Lime Rock Edition M3 (paint color for 10k). Instead of going well above and beyond what others are doing, they are just fluffing up their cars with a fancy badge, and people are buying them up. Instead of selling 10k M3s, they can sell 5k M3s - but make 10x more sales $ making things like the 335is, or the 1M. This is the entire problem. Instead of focusing SOLELY on sales, they need to start giving us laser focused, ridiculously engineered marvels like they used to. Give me an option to buy an M3 CSL weighing 350 pounds less - and having more power? Sure! Make me pay an extra 10 grand for this? Sure! However, instead of providing us with these options, we are barraged with a ridiculous array of vehicles sporting "M" badges when they aren't what one would really consider an M, or are given a new model designation "is" for the "sport" version. I think it needs to be more black and white, whereas BMW is playing in the grey area.

    People who want a true sports car should be given a true sports car - no compromises - a street legal race car if you will (a la M3 CSL). People who want a fast sedan can buy a standard BMW 335i - and it will be perfect for them (or buy the completely different powerplanted car BMW 335is - this is a good example of where resources could be better spent btw). For a true enthusiast, or someone wanting the best BMW has to offer, we are left with this hybrid option; almost forced into what they think both groups of people want most. It's garbage, and I am not happy with this direction. The current generation of the M3 is better than the last - but is SURE as hell less focused, less over-engineered, less almost everything except comfort and more power. It's a shame. I almost wish they DID give us an improved S54 instead of the S65 - just like Porsche has done. Continue down the road of improvement as opposed to cheaping out and throwing in a V8 (no matter how good it is) because they had no time/money/etc. to make a similar powered and improved upon S54/I6. Porsche has done this with their latest GT3 (and other models), it's almost ridiculous they can wring out this much power. I know a P-car costs more money than an M3, but the point is - continuous improvement and no shortcuts seem to give great results. Throwing a turbo on a M car to satisfy customer need for low end torque is a cop out. Instead of investing money on cars like the X5/X6M, or making "is" variants, give us ALL YOU HAVE - let's see you engineer something awesome/improve upon something already awesome. Instead of 3 different model designations for a 3 series, how about two? Instead of 3 SUVs - each having multiple levels of "sport", make one great one. That's the thing - they are all over the place, and need to focus on what made them special before...

    In other words, I feel they used to give the customer the option of having the best engineered car they could make. Now they don't offer this - and instead make choices based on sales $. No fuel efficient diesels that blow hybrids out of the water, while being fun and sporty at the same time. They don't think we will buy them, and don't think we care about serious engineering. Not sure how to change their perception except not to buy their cars. It's sad... I am sure the next M3 will be great - don't get me wrong - but I have a feeling it's not going to be very "special" in the manner they used to be.

    This email is long - and I wrote it throughout the last couple hours... Excuse any and all rambling Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I have read through all of this thread - and I completely understand your POV (I think)... In the last paragraph - where you mention the Z4M - that's the part I think you are missing. Yes, it might cost BMW more money to not make a Z4 with an S65 shoved in it - pay for all the needed testing, legal issues, etc. and instead make a Z4 sDrive35is as the high performance "alternative". You are most likely accurate in that they have probably analyzed the cost vs. sales of doing both - and have used that analysis to choose to build/sell 5000 Z4 sDrive35is instead of build/sell 1000 Z4 Ms with an S65 (made up numbers)...

    That's the entire problem. I WANT to buy an M roadster or coupe. In fact, if I were buying another BMW right now - today - for track/weekend use, I would LOVE BMW to offer me this choice. However, they unfortunately do not; because they have decided that most people are fine with the adequate power they are getting with the N54/55 and are also fine with the non-M-yet-good-enough-sport-suspension... They know people will buy these cars over say an S65 powered M Z4 costing much more. They know what will sell, what won't and what costs what - there is no denying this. However - they are not thinking of the true enthusiast any longer IMO. If you look back 5-10 years ago, we had an S54 powered coupe, an S54 powered Z4 Coupe and Roadster and these things are mechanical jewels... Independent throttle bodies, high revving almost bulletproof engine you could use everyday - and still take to the track on the weekends without issue. A suspension that works wonders on the street or track - one that might be overly stiff for some people, and might give magazines reason to complain - but someone knowing what M stands for will not care, and shouldn't. They are getting the best car for track/street (for a rational price) - not just a good car + another 1 psi of boost thrown in.

    Today, we have an array of cars that are "sporty" but not up to par with what I would equate with a BMW M should be. We have special designations, like the "1M", or the "is" or the Lime Rock Edition M3 (paint color for 10k). Instead of going well above and beyond what others are doing, they are just fluffing up their cars with a fancy badge, and people are buying them up. Instead of selling 10k M3s, they can sell 5k M3s - but make 10x more sales $ making things like the 335is, or the 1M. This is the entire problem. Instead of focusing SOLELY on sales, they need to start giving us laser focused, ridiculously engineered marvels like they used to. Give me an option to buy an M3 CSL weighing 350 pounds less - and having more power? Sure! Make me pay an extra 10 grand for this? Sure! However, instead of providing us with these options, we are barraged with a ridiculous array of vehicles sporting "M" badges when they aren't what one would really consider an M, or are given a new model designation "is" for the "sport" version. I think it needs to be more black and white, whereas BMW is playing in the grey area.

    People who want a true sports car should be given a true sports car - no compromises - a street legal race car if you will (a la M3 CSL). People who want a fast sedan can buy a standard BMW 335i - and it will be perfect for them (or buy the completely different powerplanted car BMW 335is - this is a good example of where resources could be better spent btw). For a true enthusiast, or someone wanting the best BMW has to offer, we are left with this hybrid option; almost forced into what they think both groups of people want most. It's garbage, and I am not happy with this direction. The current generation of the M3 is better than the last - but is SURE as hell less focused, less over-engineered, less almost everything except comfort and more power. It's a shame. I almost wish they DID give us an improved S54 instead of the S65 - just like Porsche has done. Continue down the road of improvement as opposed to cheaping out and throwing in a V8 (no matter how good it is) because they had no time/money/etc. to make a similar powered and improved upon S54/I6. Porsche has done this with their latest GT3 (and other models), it's almost ridiculous they can wring out this much power. I know a P-car costs more money than an M3, but the point is - continuous improvement and no shortcuts seem to give great results. Throwing a turbo on a M car to satisfy customer need for low end torque is a cop out. Instead of investing money on cars like the X5/X6M, or making "is" variants, give us ALL YOU HAVE - let's see you engineer something awesome/improve upon something already awesome. Instead of 3 different model designations for a 3 series, how about two? Instead of 3 SUVs - each having multiple levels of "sport", make one great one. That's the thing - they are all over the place, and need to focus on what made them special before...

    In other words, I feel they used to give the customer the option of having the best engineered car they could make. Now they don't offer this - and instead make choices based on sales $. No fuel efficient diesels that blow hybrids out of the water, while being fun and sporty at the same time. They don't think we will buy them, and don't think we care about serious engineering. Not sure how to change their perception except not to buy their cars. It's sad... I am sure the next M3 will be great - don't get me wrong - but I have a feeling it's not going to be very "special" in the manner they used to be.

    This email is long - and I wrote it throughout the last couple hours... Excuse any and all rambling Click here to enlarge
    I really appreciate your response, as well as everyone else's input. It's all obviously experience and knowledge based. Keep it coming.

    I cannot stress enough to say....This is how I feel. I bought my E46 M3 because it was overengineered. Because everything it offers is that much better than anything in its time. The S54 was a masterpiece. The S54 is the best straight 6 to ever hit the market. Then when BMW put it in to the Z3M and created the coupe. I lost my mind. I remember when I was like 10-12 and would just drive by this BMW dealer and just say how bad I wanted one. I never knew what it was or what powered it but the shoebox will forever be in my heart as one of the best coupes ever made.

    I want the same as all of you do. I truly want that special feeling you get when you drive an M car. I have not driven any M cars built beyond 2006 and I apologize for that; however, I have driven an extensive list of cars and still am able to admire where BMW is heading. I have driven a 128i and absolutely loved it. It was a 2010 model and I loved that car so much, it made me quiver to think about how much better the 135i is. I want that mechanical feel input between the car and driver just as much as the next guy. I want the individual throttle body sound. When I get my car into a tunnel, it's pure adrenaline pumping. I cannot see myself without my E46. It's what brought me into the world of BMW.

    Now, when it comes to other manufacturers. Nothing impresses me. Either it's too expensive or just not enough. BMW to me is still doing it right. Granted the N54 has replaced the M54 and I will not complain. I am just trying to maintain focus on why BMW is doing what they're doing.

    The N54 is a masterpiece. BMW made a mistake releasing this engine in non M cars. It is superb and highly acclomated in every test and review. That engine is too good. It can be a lot better, and I see how the M3 will take it to the next level. Just need to wait on the rest of the car to be built. It worked wonders in the 1M coupe and I do not expect anything less from the M3. The 1M coupe is highly overlooked because it's rare and a lot of people do not consider it a true M car. But, realistically, it's exactly what we want. Compact, light weight, lots of power, true LSD, great transmission, and built in low numbers for a great price. But not many people talk about them. Not many people mention it. It is a fantastic car for the price. Can we stop overlooking the 1M Coupe? There will be another as well all know so let's just hope BMW builds it similar to the previous one, but better. That's your modern day CSL. That car is a masterpiece. Pure 6 cylinder sound and it has two turbochargers to boot. Granted, the engine is in the regular 1/3 series, but it's a better functioning car. LSD, bigger brakes, oil cooler upgrade, and massive wheels and tires is what sets this car apart. Please do not lose sight of this. Where is Mercedes at? They do not have one. Audi has the RS3, but it's not even close. Chris Harris did a well conducted review of them both. Check that out on youtube. I like Chris Harris as his reviews are unbiased and I feel he is a true enthusiast.

    Now regarding the S54 vs S65. I do not believe that BMW updating the S54 would have been a smart decision. Even with the S65 people complain about it's lack of torque and low end. I do not know if updating the S54 would have been a good decision. As well all know the S54 is capable of 500+ hp in NA racing form, but is that what the M3 needs? I think so. I think you're right. I guess I just changed my own mind within this sentence. I gave it enough thought to change my mind, you're absolutely correct. I will not edit this.

    The S54 would have made more power and torque, granted the efficiency would have dropped, but who cares it's an M car right? Thus, BMW could have saved weight. But then again, the S65 weighs less than the S54 allowing better weight distribution over the front wheels. Who knows man, who knows. I would love to see a dry sumped S54 powered E92 pushing 400 hp. That would be incredible. Maybe Sticky should build that instead.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    The N54 is a masterpiece. BMW made a mistake releasing this engine in non M cars. It is superb and highly acclomated in every test and review. That engine is too good. It can be a lot better, and I see how the M3 will take it to the next level.
    The N54 wasn't released as an M engine & it magically didn't become an M engine when it got put in the 1M. The N54 is a very good engine, but it only becomes an S65 beater when we add a tune that basically doubles the OEM boost levels, add some safe timing and other bolt-ons (intake, aftermarket FMIC & catless DPs).

    The N54 is def a road motor, not an M motor. What I mean by that can easily be illustrated by taking an E92 M3 to a track with a 335is (both can be MT or DCT), but the M3 will smoke the 335is. Even besides factoring the M3s better drivability (suspension, LSD), the S65 is better designed for a track -- It's N/A and won't overheat after ~3 tough laps (while the N54 will) and inherently is designed as a track motor (high revving, N/A motor, being N/A there's NO lag and power input is direct). M motors, and motorsport motors in general, are all best when they can be kept N/A -- Most recent interpretations in the Z06 LS7, the E9x M3 S65, the motors in the Porsche GT3s, etc. Turbos are great for road cars, Why? A lot of them will never see the same abuse a tracked car's motor will, it greatly increases MPG (can use a smaller displacement motor to get similar power, off boost MPG, etc).


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Now regarding the S54 vs S65. I do not believe that BMW updating the S54 would have been a smart decision. Even with the S65 people complain about it's lack of torque and low end. I do not know if updating the S54 would have been a good decision. As well all know the S54 is capable of 500+ hp in NA racing form, but is that what the M3 needs? I think so. I think you're right. I guess I just changed my own mind within this sentence. I gave it enough thought to change my mind, you're absolutely correct. I will not edit this.
    The people who cares about the "lack" of the S65 (or S54) low-end TQ, are the people who've NEVER tracked or aggressively canyon-driven (back-roads, etc) their M3. These are the same people that get upset that they have to rev out their S65 off a light, while an N54/N55 car can easily roll off a stop light with TQ available ~2k RPMs. IMO, M3s should always be straight-6, high revving motor that yield ~100 HP for every liter of displacement. They should be heavily engineering motors that (outside of normal maintenance) are nearly bullet proof (the BMW M motors have their bearing problems, the LS7s have problems with valves dropping, no motor is "perfect"). These are street legal track cars with some modern comforts, MPG and making sales with the M cars should NOT be the priority. If the M3 happens to be the top selling car in the 3-series product line, it should happen & sell itself ON ITS OWN MERITS.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    The N54 wasn't released as an M engine & it magically didn't become an M engine when it got put in the 1M. The N54 is a very good engine, but it only becomes an S65 beater when we add a tune that basically doubles the OEM boost levels, add some safe timing and other bolt-ons (intake, aftermarket FMIC & catless DPs).

    The N54 is def a road motor, not an M motor. What I mean by that can easily be illustrated by taking an E92 M3 to a track with a 335is (both can be MT or DCT), but the M3 will smoke the 335is. Even besides factoring the M3s better drivability (suspension, LSD), the S65 is better designed for a track -- It's N/A and won't overheat after ~3 tough laps (while the N54 will) and inherently is designed as a track motor (high revving, N/A motor, being N/A there's NO lag and power input is direct). M motors, and motorsport motors in general, are all best when they can be kept N/A -- Most recent interpretations in the Z06 LS7, the E9x M3 S65, the motors in the Porsche GT3s, etc. Turbos are great for road cars, Why? A lot of them will never see the same abuse a tracked car's motor will, it greatly increases MPG (can use a smaller displacement motor to get similar power, off boost MPG, etc).



    The people who cares about the "lack" of the S65 (or S54) low-end TQ, are the people who've NEVER tracked or aggressively canyon-driven (back-roads, etc) their M3. These are the same people that get upset that they have to rev out their S65 off a light, while an N54/N55 car can easily roll off a stop light with TQ available ~2k RPMs. IMO, M3s should always be straight-6, high revving motor that yield ~100 HP for every liter of displacement. They should be heavily engineering motors that (outside of normal maintenance) are nearly bullet proof (the BMW M motors have their bearing problems, the LS7s have problems with valves dropping, no motor is "perfect"). These are street legal track cars with some modern comforts, MPG and making sales with the M cars should NOT be the priority. If the M3 happens to be the top selling car in the 3-series product line, it should happen & sell itself ON ITS OWN MERITS.
    Truth.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Truth.
    Agreed. Good post. Repped for truth. Click here to enlarge

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