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    Apparently BMW does care about its enthusiast

    Check this out... 99% of the cars are modified examples with the pictures taken from another great BMW forum. Really good exposure for these excellent shots. My favorite is the E46 M3. Click here to enlarge

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    Sweet, they should put it on television as well.

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    Edited OP to embed video and moved to general BMW.

    And I don't see how this means BMW cares about its enthusiast, it no longer does.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Edited OP to embed video and moved to general BMW.

    And I don't see how this means BMW cares about its enthusiast, it no longer does.
    They do. Just have read between the lines.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    They do. Just have read between the lines.
    Mmm, if I read between the lines of this video I read: See, we used to build great cars, so Buy a $#@!ing 320i NOW!

    I don't see how that proves BMW cares at all.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Mmm, if I read between the lines of this video I read: See, we used to build great cars, so Buy a $#@!ing 320i NOW!

    I don't see how that proves BMW cares at all.
    Some people. What's the difference between how BMW used to build cars and now? More weight? Every manufacturer with the exception of a few have added weight. More technology? Even the M535i was considered to have too many electronics. More power? Why argue that one. Better handling. Why argue that one. Better use of power. Why argue that one. The F30 320i is a much better performer than the E36 328i or E46 328. Bigger. Sure name a manufacturer that hasn't enlarged their cars. You can't. Even the top marques have enlarged their cars. Compare a C4 Corvette to the C6. Older gen viper to the new one. 997 vs 993. More ergonomical and easier to use. Idrive is simply fantastic compared to the older models. Transmissions are incredibly smooth. DCT vs SMG. Who wins that debate?

    Sure we're upset with the fat belly pig of the M5. But it's still worlds ahead of the E60. 1/4 mile and around a track. 5 seconds faster at VIR but it's too big. It's too comfortable. Eventually BMW will cut down weight on their cars. With the G whatever 7 series, they have talked about weight savings over the newest model 7 series through the extensive use of aluminum in the chassis and body. A new day is coming and all I hear is how great Mercedes is. Do you realise a BS is 300 lbs heavier than a Lime Rock Edition M3? No one complains about those weight savings. But no, because the C63 puts out 451 bhp it's this monstrosity of a monster with tuning capability out of this world. I'm always going to be a huge car enthusiast but man, is it tough to argue with some people who can't understand manufacturers as a whole.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Some people. What's the difference between how BMW used to build cars and now?
    Huge difference in the approach and quality of materials. BMW doesn't give a $#@!, they just want to make money.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Some people.
    I'm not gonna argue with you on these points you state.
    I just don't see how BMW is caring about us based on the 320i commercial videoclip you posted.
    Yes, the 320i is way better than the E36 328i (I owned one of these). But it is also bigger than the E34 5 series of the time,so really no comparisen there.
    And it is 20 years later, so yeah, innovation. Heck ,if you compare the cars from 20 years ago with cars now you can state the same for every Hyundai, Kia, Checrolet even, you name it.
    All car companies "Care"...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Huge difference in the approach and quality of materials. BMW doesn't give a $#@!, they just want to make money.
    BMW does care. It's the reason we can still equip the cars to our liking. It's the reason the F10 M5 was sold with a manual transmission in the US only. People just want to complain that we're not getting enough. Remember the E36 M3? You know, the stroked out M52 for the US? Could you imagine if all we recieved here was an updated version of the S54 in the E92? Or how about going back to when most assume BMW built great cars and remember the E28 M5 for the US. Remember how Europe received the M88 and all we were left with was a boring less equivalent S38? For years it has been like this. Finally, BMW has been delivering great cars and all we "enthusiasts" do is complain about how BMW does not care. They could be like Audi and not bring any of their great models.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    I'm not gonna argue with you on these points you state.
    I just don't see how BMW is caring about us based on the 320i commercial videoclip you posted.
    Yes, the 320i is way better than the E36 328i (I owned one of these). But it is also bigger than the E34 5 series of the time,so really no comparisen there.
    And it is 20 years later, so yeah, innovation. Heck ,if you compare the cars from 20 years ago with cars now you can state the same for every Hyundai, Kia, Checrolet even, you name it.
    All car companies "Care"...
    That's the point. Every manufacturer is doing it. Not just BMW. However, it's the likes of standard transmissions and improving each model that makes BMW show its enthusiasm. That's my two cents.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM
    Check this out... 99% of the cars are modified examples with the pictures taken from another great BMW forum. Really good exposure for these excellent shots. My favorite is the E46 M3.
    This def doesn't mean/communicate that BMW cares about the aftermarket community. More than anything, it shows how much the aftermarket community cares about their BMW -- that they maintain cars that ~20 years to still look new & spend money to make noticeable visual mods (wheels, body kits, etc)

    ALL I see from this video, is that BMW is looking to consistently deliver a quality, top performing 3-series that will continue to dominate it's category -- THAT'S IT. BMW isn't putting a turbo-4, 8-speed ZF auto and/or more wheel options because they care about the enthusiast, they're doing it because that's WHAT SELLS CARS. It's the natural evolution to put newer, better performing (higher MPGs) and more convenient items into the vehicle, it's not because the enthusiasts cried for a turbo-4 or an 8-speed trans. Your example with the M5 is also flawed -- BMW put the 6MT in the E50 & F10 M5s because people cancelled their pre-orders when they found out there was no 6MT (and when it was retroactively added to both cars, it still sucks in comparison to the 6MT in the E39 M5).

    IF BMW cared about the enthusiasts, the 6MT would still be the default option in the F10 M5 and would be given a lot more R&D to make sure a proper manual trans came in the car from the beginning.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge

    This def doesn't mean/communicate that BMW cares about the aftermarket community. More than anything, it shows how much the aftermarket community cares about their BMW -- that they maintain cars that ~20 years to still look new & spend money to make noticeable visual mods (wheels, body kits, etc)

    ALL I see from this video, is that BMW is looking to consistently deliver a quality, top performing 3-series that will continue to dominate it's category -- THAT'S IT. BMW isn't putting a turbo-4, 8-speed ZF auto and/or more wheel options because they care about the enthusiast, they're doing it because that's WHAT SELLS CARS. It's the natural evolution to put newer, better performing (higher MPGs) and more convenient items into the vehicle, it's not because the enthusiasts cried for a turbo-4 or an 8-speed trans. Your example with the M5 is also flawed -- BMW put the 6MT in the E50 & F10 M5s because people cancelled their pre-orders when they found out there was no 6MT (and when it was retroactively added to both cars, it still sucks in comparison to the 6MT in the E39 M5).

    IF BMW cared about the enthusiasts, the 6MT would still be the default option in the F10 M5 and would be given a lot more R&D to make sure a proper manual trans came in the car from the beginning.
    I see where you're coming from about the F10 M5 regarding its Manual transmission. However, considering what you said, does that mean Ferrari doesn't care about its enthusiasts because they know there are plenty of customers who want a manual trans 458? Back on track, what you said about the M5 is correct. Based on demand from owners/enthusiasts BMW added the manual transmission as an option. Now in this sense I can agree to disagree and say that BMW wanted to keep it's purists and sales and saw having a manual transmission as a benefit rather than flop. The F10 M5 has a standard manual transmission in the US. Figuratively speaking, the DCT is much faster and performs a worlds better than the 6MT. 1/4 mile testing, track testing, and daily driving it is more ergonomical. Going back to Ferrari, it's the reason Ferrari no longer sells a manual transmission. A dual clutch is simply better. How is the E39 transmission better than the F10? Explain this one please. Because it was only sold with a manual trans?

    Thinking critically though, BMW is a lot about sales. Truth be told. However, with recent models like the 1M, the Lime Rock Edition M3, Alpina B7, and seeing N54's are still available to every market and not just the N55, etc. There are still enthusiasts inside BMW's core. You really have to read between the lines and understand every upgrade on every new BMW. For instance the M6 now has Carbon Ceramics. Not great for strenuous track duty, but they will do just fine and it's a huge plus. Also having the ability to really build a car to your exact liking. My only beef and it makes sense why they don't, but my only beef with BMW is why isn't there an LSD option for the 135/335/535 and up? Makes sense because, at that point what would you need to buy an M3 for? Widened tires, wider wheel arches, stiffer chassis? We're not talking race cars here but for daily duties, I think an LSD optioned 335i would suffice for my normal days.

    Lastly, no auto manufacturer is focused purely on its enthusiasts. None of them are. Mention the BRZ and I will say, where's the supposed turbocharger that every enthusiast expected? Where's the 300 hp? Asking the same why's everyone here asks out of BMW. Why is there no Z4M like the race car? Why does the M5 heat soak? Why is the M5 so heavy? Why does an M3 cost as much as a Vette but offer a lot less performance? Keep asking the why's and move on to another forum. Then you will see the same trend. I posed the same questions to Nissan about the new Z. Then I bought it and understood it. Then sold it a month later realizing how much further in time I went behind what BMW sells. Step out of the BMW enthusiast seat for a second and step into another. You will miss your BMW. I guarantee.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    BMW does care. It's the reason we can still equip the cars to our liking.
    What are you talking about man? M3 CSL, M3 GTS, ever heard of these? Nope, because we instead get special editions that are BS.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    It's the reason the F10 M5 was sold with a manual transmission in the US only. People just want to complain that we're not getting enough. Remember the E36 M3? You know, the stroked out M52 for the US? Could you imagine if all we recieved here was an updated version of the S54 in the E92?
    The E46 M3 S54 basically was just a massaged S50. The E92 had to get a V8.

    Have you seen the S65 versus the S54 though? The S65 isn't built to the same standard.

    BMW doesn't care any more man, what are you seriously talking about?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    E28 M5 for the US. Remember how Europe received the M88 and all we were left with was a boring less equivalent S38? For years it has been like this. Finally, BMW has been delivering great cars and all we "enthusiasts" do is complain about how BMW does not care. They could be like Audi and not bring any of their great models.
    What are you talking about? The M88 was the predecessor to the S38 and the S38 was the first real "S" named BMW motor. BMW didn't have their naming convention down yet or their M motors as the E28 M5 was the first model. Only natural to go from M88 to S38. And that was in the freaking 80's.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    That's the point. Every manufacturer is doing it. Not just BMW.
    Uh, no. Mercedes is delivering Black Series world wide, not screwing over their enthusiasts. Porsche just produced an epic new GT3 without going turbo. BMW has gone cheap and doesn't deliver top of the line enthusiast models any longer. It IS just BMW.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    I see where you're coming from about the F10 M5 regarding its Manual transmission. However, considering what you said, does that mean Ferrari doesn't care about its enthusiasts because they know there are plenty of customers who want a manual trans 458?
    But we're focusing on BMW, not 1/4 million dollar sports. Percentage wise, BMWs prob see a significantly more track time then the Ferrari's. SO percentage wise, Ferrari owners tend to be people who want a status symbol, which is why a switch to an automated gearbox was a seamless, unchallenged change.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Back on track, what you said about the M5 is correct. Based on demand from owners/enthusiasts BMW added the manual transmission as an option. Now in this sense I can agree to disagree and say that BMW wanted to keep it's purists and sales and saw having a manual transmission as a benefit rather than flop. The F10 M5 has a standard manual transmission in the US. Figuratively speaking, the DCT is much faster and performs a worlds better than the 6MT. 1/4 mile testing, track testing, and daily driving it is more ergonomical. Going back to Ferrari, it's the reason Ferrari no longer sells a manual transmission. A dual clutch is simply better. How is the E39 transmission better than the F10? Explain this one please. Because it was only sold with a manual trans?
    Not everything is about 1/4 mile times and fastest shifttimes, sometimes it's more about the driving feel. And as great and efficient as the DCT is, it will never give the same driving feel or driver involvement that a Manual Trans can provide. Read the E39, E60 & F10 M5 reviews that include a Manual Trans review, you'll see that the E39 is the last M5 that got a positive review on the quality & feel of the 6MT.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Thinking critically though, BMW is a lot about sales. Truth be told. However, with recent models like the 1M, the Lime Rock Edition M3, Alpina B7, and seeing N54's are still available to every market and not just the N55, etc. There are still enthusiasts inside BMW's core. You really have to read between the lines and understand every upgrade on every new BMW. For instance the M6 now has Carbon Ceramics. Not great for strenuous track duty, but they will do just fine and it's a huge plus. Also having the ability to really build a car to your exact liking.
    The Lime Rock Edition M3 is nothing more than a DCT/Competition Package M3 with $10k added on the MSRP for some special badges, monograms and a fancy paint job. There are THOUSANDS of enthusiasts inside the BMW brand, but there aren't any enthusiasts making or seriously influencing the decisions being made at BMW HQ. The carbon ceramic brakes are a phenomenal advertising piece that really aren't suited on these cars, I mean even the Porsche guys who actively track their cars are swapping out the Ceramic Brakes for Steel Rotors because they're less expensive to maintain/service & aren't as susceptible to braking/chipping/damage. The ceramic brakes offer a marginal benefit over steel rotors that only can be noticed during very abusive track sessions (think track team, not weekend warrior).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    My only beef and it makes sense why they don't, but my only beef with BMW is why isn't there an LSD option for the 135/335/535 and up? Makes sense because, at that point what would you need to buy an M3 for? Widened tires, wider wheel arches, stiffer chassis? We're not talking race cars here but for daily duties, I think an LSD optioned 335i would suffice for my normal days.
    Simply put, the 135/335/535 isn't an M car.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Asking the same why's everyone here asks out of BMW. Why is there no Z4M like the race car? Why does the M5 heat soak? Why is the M5 so heavy? Why does an M3 cost as much as a Vette but offer a lot less performance?
    You just identified every complaint that that the BMW enthusiasts community has with the people at BMW HQ. With some of your latter complaints (M5 heatsoak, weight, M3 cost), it's because what you get with those cars. The M5's been getting heavier with every gen, courtesy of all the new required safety features & tech/convenience add-ons (NAV, Surround Sound systems, etc).

    The M3 & Vettes are appealing to two different buyers. Yes, they're both performance sports cars. But the Vette, like the Viper (and both the C7 & 2013 Viper are going in a different direction with this) are hard-edged, no compromise sports cars. The M3 is a German sports car, it's a phenomenal performance car at its core, but it's got a lot of daily driving convenience items (the NAV, sound system, big wheels, etc).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Step out of the BMW enthusiast seat for a second and step into another. You will miss your BMW. I guarantee.
    BMW is a phenomenal car and there certainly more brands that will leave you wanting more, but at the same time you have companies that give you more as a performance driver, examples: Porsche (Turbo/GT2), the new AMGs & Audi RS/S cars, Lambo Gallardos & even Ferraris (360, F430/458, the Challenge models) that you can buy lightly used (or save another year or two).

    As an all arounder, the BMW is king (for now). The Mercedes AMG & Audi RS/S cars are def getting a lot closer with their formula (properly powered engine, driving feel & daily driving comfort), which is why it's so important that the new M3/M4 delivers significantly more than what's expected.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Step out of the BMW enthusiast seat for a second and step into another. You will miss your BMW. I guarantee.
    I had to comment on this. I regret staying with BMW as long as I have. Won't miss them, can't wait to leave.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Step out of the BMW enthusiast seat for a second and step into another. You will miss your BMW. I guarantee.
    I went from a '12 335is - optioned exactly as I wanted it, picked up in Munich and broken in on the Autobahn - to an '06 Cayman S with very few options. I haven't missed my 335 for a single second.

    Porsche hasn't forgotten their enthusiasts. They improve their product with each generation - to the point where the obvious money-saving tactic of buying a used previous-gen car becomes questionable because the new hardware is that much better. Porsche is getting a conservative 475hp out of the NA 3.8l boxer six in the new GT3. The latest gen Carrera and Boxster/Cayman cars have become more powerful and lighter than their predecessors, with more interior/technology content, and yet they return better MPG and carbon emissions than the previous-gen cars.

    If Porsche can do it, why won't BMW?
    Current: '00 S2000
    Previous: '15 M235i xDrive | '15 Macan S | '15 WRX STi | '06 Cayman S | '12 E92 335is w/JB4 | '10 STi

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    Porsche hasn't forgotten their enthusiasts. They improve their product with each generation
    Boom.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    The latest gen Carrera and Boxster/Cayman cars have become more powerful and lighter than their predecessors, with more interior/technology content, and yet they return better MPG and carbon emissions than the previous-gen cars.

    If Porsche can do it, why won't BMW?
    $$$$$ BMW has gone cheap. Sales and profit margin are all that matter.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    I went from a '12 335is - optioned exactly as I wanted it, picked up in Munich and broken in on the Autobahn - to an '06 Cayman S with very few options. I haven't missed my 335 for a single second.

    Porsche hasn't forgotten their enthusiasts. They improve their product with each generation - to the point where the obvious money-saving tactic of buying a used previous-gen car becomes questionable because the new hardware is that much better. Porsche is getting a conservative 475hp out of the NA 3.8l boxer six in the new GT3. The latest gen Carrera and Boxster/Cayman cars have become more powerful and lighter than their predecessors, with more interior/technology content, and yet they return better MPG and carbon emissions than the previous-gen cars.

    If Porsche can do it, why won't BMW?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Boom.




    $$$$$ BMW has gone cheap. Sales and profit margin are all that matter.
    You know, I am a huge fan of Porsche and have been for more years than BMW. However, here's what I will say about that. 911's are excellent cars. Great quality, great performance, and offer an impeccable amount of ways to customize your 911. However, with the exception of the Cayman and Boxster, every other 911 has increased performance, increased their efficiency, and also increased their price. What you pay for a well optioned Carrera base now, is what the 911 GT3 based cost in 2007. Nearly identical performance figures albeit, but the GT3 is something, better. So with the added performance and efficiency, you now have a car that costs nearly 1/3 more than a previous gen. Compare the new prices of the 996's. You could have a well optioned 996 Carrera for under $80k and a Turbo for somewhere between $90k to $100k. Now a days if you don't bring $130k to the table, you're just barely climbing into 911 Turbo range. So, with that added performance, there's a cost; and it's a hefty cost.

    BMW on the other hand, has increased its range of efficiency, increased performance, and on the negative side, increased weight marginally. As expected, BMW is trying to find ways to get the weight under control. It shows with their moves in Carbon engineering with Boeing and their aluminum plants vigorously trying to find ways to cut costs on aluminum production.

    We must understand that while we want these fast cars, the manufacturers developing them are still major businesses. They rely on money and a well established economy to make money. Right now, it's costing a lot of money to manufacture cars in an awful economy. I would expect Porsche to be able to figure out ways to save weight as their cars are geared towards a much lower demographic. BMW sells probably 3 times as many 3 series as Porsche 911's. Something to think about.

    Now, on a personal note. I have driven a couple 996 911's, a 2009 997 C4S, a couple of Boxsters and a 06 Cayman S. Neither of which did I really fall in love with. At the time I drove the 996, I owned a 350Z. While the interior quality was better, the ride was too soft compared to my Z. The car did not turn as well and this is just driving around. The suspension absorbed bumps better, but the settings I felt were too soft for a performance oriented 911.

    I drove a Cayman S a few years later. Love the look and styling of the Cayman S, but I am still not sold on them. Something about it. At this time I owned my current E46 M3. Something about it just was not right. I don't know what it is, or how to describe the feeling but it did not give me that smile like my M3 does. This one even was modified with an exhaust for that pure boxer 6 sound. It didn't lack in feel, but something about it I just did not like more than my M3. Maybe it was because I am over 2 seaters after owning my M3. But I was in it and comfortable.

    A week or two after driving this, I drove the 997 C4S. A 2008 model. I loved looking at this car, and once again something about when I drove it I just did not like. Maybe it was the $66k price tag. But it was not nearly as engaging as my $30k M3. It didn't have that intake sound my M3 has. It did not have the power my M3 had. Mind you it was an 08 and in 2009 they bumped the power to 385. Something about this 911 was missing.

    Now that we're finished explaining my lack of experience in Porsche's, let's focus on the enthusiasts. The 996 to me was a huge let down. I remember days when I sat up thinking of how lovely it would be when I own one and how awesome that car will be. Then I drove it. I felt like James May when he finally drove the Countach. Completely let down. I left driving that car like, that's it? I figured you know what, Porsche is by far my number 2 favorite brand, let's try some others. Then drove the Cayman. Once again, I was let down. I said you know what, I love the 997/987, let's try the Carrera S with some power. Once again, I was let down. To me, for the cost, every last gen 911 S, will cost the same as a brand new M3. The current 911, is always too expensive to be considered a true rival for the M3. Although they are cross shopped, should the buyer purchase the 911, it will be a previous gen 911 every time. In my eyes, with the M cars you get a very well refined car that is well put together, performance oriented, spacious, ergonomical, and beautiful. With every 911, it's the same, but the price is always higher. Too many options. For instance, why am I paying $400 for you to remove the Porsche badge on my 911? To me they are better.

    I will have to say, I agree with you both on the fact that Porsche stays true to their enthusiasts. I cannot argue with something I agree with. I've always wanted to own a Porsche for this simple fact but just have not found the right one. The drastic change to water cooled changed them forever, however, enabled them to go to levels they have never seen before. But I can also see this view from BMW's standpoint.

    Concerning the 3.8l and 475 hp. If you truly believe that is conservative, you're out of your mind. The 3.8l is on it's last leg hp wise. The only option for more power is 4.0 in the standard GT3, and bump the RS up to 4.5 and then you're maxxed out displacement wise. The 4.0 is literally maxxed out. 13.1:1 c/r and still able to run pump gas? That's incredible, but unless you're tuned and running race fuel, there is no more power to be made. RUF has built a 4.5l RGT-8, and it makes 550 hp. That's nearly maxxed out, unless there is some design or engineering flaw I am unaware of. There is only so much more power they can add to the 911 GT3.

    I am done with my spiel. I do have to admit though, I am in love with Porsche a little less than BMW but it's still a ridiculous amount. Porsche is my next move.
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  18. #18
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    every other 911 has increased performance, increased their efficiency, and also increased their price.
    So what? At least you are paying for tangible improvements.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    increased weight marginally
    Marginally?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    We must understand that while we want these fast cars, the manufacturers developing them are still major businesses. They rely on money and a well established economy to make money.
    AMG is doing it. Porsche is doing it. Audi is doing it. What's BMW's excuse? Oh ya, sell 550 GT's and 335 GT's instead.

    BMW is in the toilet. They lost their way.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So what? At least you are paying for tangible improvements.



    Marginally?



    AMG is doing it. Porsche is doing it. Audi is doing it. What's BMW's excuse? Oh ya, sell 550 GT's and 335 GT's instead.

    BMW is in the toilet. They lost their way.
    You're correct about paying for the improvements. The current 991 CS is just as fast around a track as the 997 GT3 and they cost the same. AMG has finally caught up to BMW after how many years of failure? It has taken them 20 years to build something worthy and people are already jumping bandwagons. It's ok you can have your C63's, E63's, and whatever else. Audi's are still terrible. Drive one. I loved the RS4 I drove. I will admit, however, it was back in 2007. Audi has failed every single year in attempts to out do BMW. Failure every time. The E92 M3 is worlds better than the RS4 and the F30 will not dissapoint either. The only thing good about RS Audi's, is how incredibly well they hold their value. BMW is not in the toilet, you just need to get out and drive.

    And you want to complain about the GT's? I am not a fan of either, however, wtf is that concoction, the CLA? You think the GT's are hideous? Give me a 550i GT over that any day of the week.

    Do me this favor. Name 3 beautiful AMG's or Audi's built in the 90's that were sold in the US. I will wait.

    Also, where were you when the weight increased on the upcoming E34? E39? E60? This weight addition didn't happen overnight with the F10. It's been a 150-200 lbs steady increase over the models for decades. This is just another excuse for bandwagon jumpers to move on. There's a 3-400 lb difference between the E30 and E46 M3's. I strongly urge you all to read the Bimmer Magazine dates April 2013 for a really good read on the differences in driving dynamics between the new BMW's and the old. You will be in for a surprise.
    Last edited by Steve B. CBR; 03-06-2013 at 05:52 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    And you want to complain about the GT's? I am not a fan of either, however, wtf is that concoction, the CLA? You think the GT's are hideous? Give me a 550i GT over that any day of the week.
    The GTs are hideous -- I would take the Mercedes CLS/CLA or Audi A/S7 over the GTs any day of the week, without second guessing what color & options I'd have.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Do me this favor. Name 3 beautiful AMG's or Audi's built in the 90's that were sold in the US. I will wait.
    Who cares about the 90s anymore? It's 2013 and looking forward, both the MB AMG & the Audi RS divisions are about to overtake the M Division products. Said this already, the new M3/M4 really needs to bring the noise to save BMW's reputation.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    AMG has finally caught up to BMW after how many years of failure? It has taken them 20 years to build something worthy and people are already jumping bandwagons
    So we admit BMW has fallen and others have passed them? We aren't living in the past though, it's 2013.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Audi has failed every single year in attempts to out do BMW. Failure every time.
    R8. Checkmate.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    And you want to complain about the GT's? I am not a fan of either, however, wtf is that concoction, the CLA? You think the GT's are hideous? Give me a 550i GT over that any day of the week.
    The CLA is awesome AND has an AMG version. BMW's competition is where? Nowhere.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Do me this favor. Name 3 beautiful AMG's or Audi's built in the 90's that were sold in the US. I will wait.
    AMG wasn't officially part of MB until 1999. It's impressive how quickly they challenged and passed with enthusiast vehicles. Somewhat sad how BMW has fallen so far so fast.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Also, where were you when the weight increased on the upcoming E34? E39? E60?
    When they were lighter than the competition I had no problem with it. When the M5 became heavier than competition even with all wheel drive that is a major red flag.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    I strongly urge you all to read the Bimmer Magazine dates April 2013 for a really good read on the differences in driving dynamics between the new BMW's and the old. You will be in for a surprise.
    Considering I have been studying and buying BMW's for a decade, not really. I think I'm pretty well qualified on this topic.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Do me this favor. Name 3 beautiful AMG's or Audi's built in the 90's that were sold in the US. I will wait.
    I'm cheating, because you couldn't buy it here. But she is a looker.

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Inconspicuous Click here to enlarge
    I'm cheating, because you couldn't buy it here. But she is a looker.

    Click here to enlarge
    That she is.

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    Maybe BMW just does not care about the American market, no CSL, no GTS....just their run of the mill M cars here in the states. With mecedes you can opt for a C63 or up the ante to the uber enthusiest Black Series, Audi you can opt for an S5 or the higher performing an more rare RS5. AMG has built a mystique arounf the Black Series name, in just a few year the words "Black Series" has become a household name for enthusiests.

    Now lets discuss BMWs answer to the AMG SLS.........or SLS Black Series....where are the BMW marketing people??? AMG has a waiting list a mile long with peoplemwanting to plunkmdown $300,000 for an SLS BS, you think anyone at BMW has taken notice? Where is BMWs answer to the Audi R8?
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    1000+WHP WEISTEC 2008 CLK63 Black Series
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Maybe BMW just does not care about the American market, no CSL, no GTS....just their run of the mill M cars here in the states. With mecedes you can opt for a C63 or up the ante to the uber enthusiest Black Series, Audi you can opt for an S5 or the higher performing an more rare RS5. AMG has built a mystique arounf the Black Series name, in just a few year the words "Black Series" has become a household name for enthusiests.

    Now lets discuss BMWs answer to the AMG SLS.........or SLS Black Series....where are the BMW marketing people??? AMG has a waiting list a mile long with peoplemwanting to plunkmdown $300,000 for an SLS BS, you think anyone at BMW has taken notice?
    Believe it or not there is very low margin in the SLS BS. It's a matter of pride, hence why I respect AMG for it. I also respect them for always giving us all the Black Series cars even if they lose money on them.

    BMW doesn't respect us, they treat us like sheep. I'm over it. I'm stick of fighting their enthusiast battle for them.

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