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Thread: Convert N54 to A2W (Air to Water) Cooled by Air Conditioner Refrigerant

              
  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    I have a feeling electric AC compressor is going backwards though, lol
    There is actually a significant amount of loss associated with the belt that must spin the A/C compressor, even if the clutch is off and the pulley isn't connected to the compressor. If you have less pulleys and a shorter belt (even with a higher capacity alternator that would be needed) your entire engine system will be more efficient.

    Key word: efficient.

    If you are really wanting to do this, you need to figure out how much heat the stock A/C system can move. You could take measurements of the cabin temperature over time to empirically approximate this value. You would need to limit adding heat to the cabin through solar radiation and conduction, thus making the only heat transfer happen through the A/C system. Covering the car with those thermal emergency blankets to block the sun, then with a regular blanket to block conduction could work. You would also need to do this at different ambient temperatures. It would be easiest if you started with the same cabin air temperature every time as this would remove one variable from a total of about 10.

    The amount of heat moved will be related not only to the capacity of the system, but also to the temperature differential between the condenser coil and the ambient air and the temperature differential between the evaporator coil an the cabin air. This is only to figure out if the stock A/C system is even capable of moving enough heat to cool the charge air. I know that automotive A/C systems are spec'd to move much more heat per unit volume (that is volume of cabin air or air inside your house) than a home A/C system. This is because of all the glass and lack of proper insulation in a car. Also people want the A/C to blow cold in their car as soon as possible on a hot day. However, there is significantly more heat in the charge air than the cabin air as there is a much higher charge air flow rate, and the charge air is much hotter. You could maybe use an A2A to cool the air initially, but you'd take a pressure drop penalty as discussed above.

    If you could determine the A/C system had enough capacity to cool the charge air when it is hottest, at its highest flow rate, then I would imagine the way to do this is using an A/C evaporator coil to cool the charge air directly, not using the A/C evap coil to cool water that cools the charge air. Every time you transfer heat from one medium to another, you increase the thermal resistance of the system, slowing the transfer of heat. The most efficient system would use an evap coil to cool the charge air directly.

    If you just try to slap another evap coil in parallel with the one for the cabin air, I would think you'd totally ruin the careful balance that needs to take place in the system to make the refrigerant change phases and enable the system to work at all. So the only way to do this with the stock system is to sacrifice the cabin A/C. You could install a dedicated refrigerated cooling system for the charge air, but you'd add a significant amount of weight, not to mention the space restrictions present in a vehicle like the 3 series raise questions about where exactly you'd put it.

    I would spray water on the outside of my A2A and call it a day. Sorry to be a downer, but this is not a simple undertaking.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    How so? You are saying air still needs to cool the radiator but water can move away far more heat.

    It's really no different than a water cooled computer versus air cooled. Water cooled is ultimately superior. Your motor is water cooled too for a reason.
    Its completely different. Think about the volume of water flowing past the heat sink in a water cooled computer versus the chip size. Also the density of the heat source requires this sort of setup and the computer doesn't have 70mph wind blowing across the front of it. Porsche may use air to water, but if they do its for packaging constraints, same with the gt40. Where the hell are you going to put an air to air intercooler on a Porsche which has its engine in the back? The comparison to the radiator of the car is just plain stupid. The magnitude, temperature, and concentration of the heat are all completely different. Do you really want to suggest a system as large and complex as the car cooling system to lower IATs 30F? The car cooling system operates at a completely different temp... Air to water shines when you want the shortest intake runs and have packaging constraints, it doesn't get as cold as air to air without AC wired in, which is silly. If you really want to reinvent the wheel, do it, but there is a reason no car manufacturer currently, or ever in the future, will implement this "feature".

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    In AZ and most of the west coast, 91 or E85 is your only option. I plan on running E85 for my purposes so we'll see what ends up mattering in the end. You can only push boost so far however regardless of octane of the fuel. Defeating the issue at its root is really what my thread is about.
    Yes and no... your turbo's will only push so much air (not psi boost), which varies based on ambient conditions, altitude, etc. Basically, they can only spin at X rpm max, and the air they push is set at that RPM and conditions. PSI is a measurement of restriction from the intercooler and the engine. For a generalized example, think of a V8 with our turbos, the same air volume from the turbo will flow more easily through that engine system, lowering peak "boost" since the engine is so thirsty for air, and generating the same shaft speed for the turbo and same horsepower. In the real world, lowering the restriction with heads and such actually helps the turbo's some as they are not pushing as hard to flow air, but it's a minor point. The take away is that the turbo's simply move volumes of air based on their RPM and the restrictions they encounter.

    The heat they generate isn't really a problem in itself. Hell, the ENTIRE idea of the turbocharger is to recapture heat LOST through combustion. The engine is a heat engine, you take an intake charge, combustion generates heat/pressure, some of this is used to move the piston, the rest is thrown away through the exhaust. You lose tons of the heat and pressure through the exhaust (not sure the exact amount). Turbo's recapture a small amount of this, that's how they work, they are heat recyclers.

    The heat in the intake track isn't killing your power. The gas you use is. It will detonate during compression if the charge is too hot, breaking things. All you have to do is prevent this from happening, and the heat no longer matters, only the volumes of air matter, which is dictated by turbo size and shaft speed (in essence). You can prevent the detonation in many ways... chemically with higher octane gas (pump or race), alternative fuels like E85 and methanol have MUCH more latent heat, as well as octane, meaning that it absorbs more heat than gasoline and has higher knock resistance Water injection absorbs heat during the compression stroke, reducing temps prior to combustion and preventing knock, intercoolers lower the charge temp before the combustion chamber, removing heat and preventing knock, etc etc. They are ALL the same effect.

    With enough knock prevention, you can push the turbo's to their max and IAT makes absolutely no difference (ambient temperature still does as this is prior to compressing). Although at some point, fuel system, engine strength, etc will play a factor. The root of the problem is the octane of the gas vs temperature of compression, and nothing more. Hope that helps you visualize things.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    If you really want to reinvent the wheel, do it, but there is a reason no car manufacturer currently, or ever in the future, will implement this "feature".
    Let me guess, this doesn't count because its only a concept. Well, there is a reason they patented it and concepts drive the innovation that reflects what we get in real cars. Thats a bold statement considering the following. Perhaps you should call them and let them know they are wrong and none of what they are saying is factual, engineered properly or seen any real testing:

    http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=14096

    Coletti’s team fit the SVT Lightning concept with an all-aluminum, 5.4-liter DOHC supercharged and intercooled V-8 engine conservatively rated at 500 horsepower and 500 foot pounds of torque (SAE net). And while they were at it, they invented and patented a speed secret for those times when even that much power just isn’t enough. Ford’s patented SuperCooler technology cleverly provides a special burst of power for the SVT Lightning concept. Traditional intercoolers dissipate heat from the supercharged air by circulating coolant through a front-mounted, air-cooled radiator. With the SuperCooler system, the vehicle’s air conditioning system is used to chill a small storage tank of coolant to about 30 degrees Fahrenheit. On demand, the SuperCooler system switches the intercooler flow from its normal circulation and dumps the chilled coolant into the engine’s intercooler. In turn, the intercooler dissipates up to 20 percent more heat from the charge air – resulting in a denser air charge. A green light on the instrument panel indicates the system’s readiness. SuperCooler is activated automatically when the driver depresses the accelerator to a wide-open-throttle position. “This technology plays directly into the hands of the enthusiast,” Coletti says. “The SuperCooler provides the edge for the driver, and it is done simply by taking advantage of the hardware that already exists in the vehicle.” As a result of this cool technology, the SVT Lighting concept can give its driver as much as 50 transient horsepower for short bursts of 30-45 seconds and regenerate within 2 minutes under normal driving conditions. While its effect is similar to that of an aftermarket nitrous oxide system, the SuperCooler is completely self-contained, environmentally friendly and regenerative. -
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    Straight off ProCharger's website (http://www.procharger.com/centrifugalsupercharger.shtml), reinforcing that Air/Air > Air/Water

    Air-to-Air Intercooling
    For street use, it is well known that air-to-air intercooling offers superior performance relative to air-to-water intercoolers. The only exception is if a vehicle’s design does not allow placement of an air-to-air intercooler of adequate size, or with adequate airflow, or if it is a race vehicle which is operated for only a short period and is able to utilize ice.
    This is in part due to the fact that air-to-water intercooling for street use involves a secondary heat exchanger, and is actually air-to-water-to-air intercooling. This two-step design limits intercooler system effectiveness relative to air-to-air designs.
    Positive displacement superchargers, however, are not able to easily utilize air-to-air intercoolers due to their engine-top mounting, and typically utilize air-to-water-to-air intercoolers. Almost all turbochargers and centrifugal superchargers utilize air-to-air intercooler systems due to their higher effectiveness.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    Straight off ProCharger's website (http://www.procharger.com/centrifugalsupercharger.shtml), reinforcing that Air/Air > Air/Water
    The sky is also blue. Not sure what your saying. This thread is not about pro charger or their implmentation of A2A intercooling. This is about AC assisted A2W intercooling. Here is a link for you as long as we are posting irrelevant information:

    http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/sky_blue.html
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    By the way, cows have four tits!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    By the way, cows have four tits!
    By the way, you still don't have an N54, let alone an actual design or any concrete implementation of your Air/Water cooling system
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    just out of curiosity... since all the serious power guys run meth; what benefit would this conversion have? For the lower power guys; the aftermarket A2A intecooler options do a great job...
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    So, by increasing heat on the hot side of the refrigerant lines, aka at the evaporator, are we REALLY making the system more efficient? Efficient in what way? Is this the compressor that is more efficient by creating more pressure on the hot side making it 'easier' to do its job or are we allowing the cold side to absorb heat better?
    No. The process of refrigeration becomes more rapid as the temperature differential is bigger.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    By the way, you still don't have an N54, let alone an actual design or any concrete implementation of your Air/Water cooling system
    I was FBO + Meth + the only 3" Dp's that didn't merge to 2.5" and mated to 3" mid pipes, bmw perf steering wheel full suspension(what was considered full suspension at the time not including many of the newer things available nowadays), wavetrac, rebuilt the entire front clip of the car by hand entirely done by myself in my garage and a variety of other relatively costly mods, paid CASH for my vehicle(although not a retail purchase by any means) and put in another 20k cash on top of it, all of this done to my car which was pretty much the extent of what was available at the time possibly before you even owned your N54. I had gauges and was measuring IAT's in multple points of my vehicle before most people gave a crap except the tuners. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you're shaking your head like I'm a complete noob, when really i'm just trying to add some technical discussion that I find interesting, the concepts and the engineeng involved are what interest me. I'm a business designer if you will, I'm extremely good at systems, at least in the field I work in so I have a natural knack for thinking in new lights, putting old theories to rest and trying new, innovative things. Thats why I owned two newer bmw's outright at the age of 24. My family are poor dairy farmers from Oregon. And at age 28 I'm a multi business owner(not mary kay or lemonade stand - Bar, Call Center, IT Company, CPA Marketing guru - if you knew half of anything about the last one you'd respect) looking for ways to put a potential project together. Driving my car is only half the fun. Building it, modifying it, bleeding from my knuckles and being the first to discover or pioneer things are where I get my satisfaction. And many people just like to $#@! on my parade. Most of it I take kindly as the bottom lines they address are derived from largely factual information that applies to most people. I'm not most people and general negativity with little productivity in terms of your comments is the feeling I get. So hence the sky is blue comment. Don't take offense to it. I'm not bragging by any means, just giving you a little check as I do have some funds to drive into a project and if anything you guys should find it interesting or entertaining. Anyone naysaying, as long as its genuine and an attempt to help save me some time, I can understand and actually respect it. But certain people, and I may be wrong about you, don't think I've really had any issue with you, but certain people are just a little rude. I'm not in here asking which BOV is best. I already made that thread 5 years ago, however it was with video clips of different bovs I ran on my car.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
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    No. The process of refrigeration becomes more rapid as the temperature differential is bigger.
    Good answer, haha, although differential is the tricky and key part.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    I'm not in here asking which BOV is best.
    Lol, def be on the wrong forum if you were asking that

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    But certain people, and I may be wrong about you, don't think I've really had any issue with you, but certain people are just a little rude. I'm not in here asking which BOV is best. I already made that thread 5 years ago, however it was with video clips of different bovs I ran on my car
    I'm not looking to be rude or $#@! on your parade, I honestly think that this endeavor (converting the N54 from air/air to air/water) is going to become very complex to package & achieve the success of the currently available air/air setups. I understand that you wanted to avoid Meth (which is probably going to be the most effective & least costly method to lower your IATs & fight off a heatsoaked IC) or E85, but I def don't think air/water will be able to achieve that.

    A quick look at some other very high performance TT-cars will illustrate another problem you're going to have:

    • Twin Turbo Gallardo -- Midengine V10 with air/water intercooling; turbos + intercooling system mounted behind engine with high passive airflow
    • Twin Turbo GT40 -- Midengine V8 with air/water intercooling; turbos + intercooling system mounted behind engine with high passive airflow
    • Twin Turbo SRT Viper -- Front engine V10 with air/air intercooling; turbos mounted between engine + firewall with low passive airflow. FMIC mounted behind bumper in high airflow location
    • Twin Turbo Corvette -- Front engine V8 with air/air intercooling; turbos mounted between engine + firewall with low passive airflow. FMIC mounted behind bumper in high airflow location.
    • 996/997 Turbo Porsches -- Rear engine Flat-6 with air/air intercooling; turbos mounted behind engine in low airflow location. Twin intercoolers mounted in high airflow locations (in purpose built airvents or behind rear wheels)
    • Twin Turbo GTR -- Front engine V6 with air/air intercooling; turbos mounted between engine + firewall with low passive airflow. FMIC mounted behind bumper in high airflow location.
    • Big Single or Twin Turbo Supras -- Front engine I6 with air/air intercooling; turbos mounted alongside engine in area with low passive airflow. FMIC mounted behind bumper in high airflow location.


    What I'm getting at is the N54 engine bay doesn't have a lot more space for all the pumps, plumbing, water/chemical tanks required for an effective air/water (the heat exchanged can easily be a direct swap for the FMIC). The other problem (which I'm sure has already been mentioned) is that by going air/water (or chemical fluid), is that the liquid is going to be very heavy and having a liquid tank over the front wheels is def going to hinder performance and the driving characteristics of the car. Because the 135/335 isn't a 1,000 WHP car, the negative impacts on performance are going to be a lot more noticeable than on the TT-Gallardos/GT40sm etc.

    In 100% honesty, I'm really surprised that the E9x guys with air/water kits (the VF, Gintani, ESS) haven't fooled around with this. AFAIK, no1s even made an attempt at an ice box or any other additional cooling mods to support the front mount heat exchanger.

    **While searching Google for more info, I came across this Camaro thread highlighting the RX Performance Super Chiller. Apparently some fitted it to a TT-Camaro (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=153643&page=2) and the one shop that keeps commenting (SC2150 = RX Performance) can retrofit air/airs, you just need to develop an effective air/water plenum to mate the system to.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    **While searching Google for more info, I came across this Camaro thread highlighting the RX Performance Super Chiller. Apparently some fitted it to a TT-Camaro (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=153643&page=2) and the one shop that keeps commenting (SC2150 = RX Performance) can retrofit air/airs, you just need to develop an effective air/water plenum to mate the system to.
    I don't disagree with the complexity. The water tank can be stored in the trunk, its merely lines that would run back and forth, the beauty of water vs air. The water doesn't need to move at high speeds, unlike an a2a system. In fact, its been tested in a variety of setups that if you use a pump rated with a gph that is too high, the water never sits still long enough to absorb the heat.

    You bring up a camaro with the RX Super chiller, and that product is actually the entire point of this thread, look at my first post... I specifically post a video about the RX Super Chiller in a camaro.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
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    just out of curiosity... since all the serious power guys run meth; what benefit would this conversion have? For the lower power guys; the aftermarket A2A intecooler options do a great job...
    It is for me. In arizona. Think most people's hottest day of the year but for half the year. I don't see what would stop people from running meth on top of this. Wonder what that would do for IAT's if anything. It could add a huge boost to the efficiency of the A2W setup and reduce the need for a huge heat exchanger.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    You bring up a camaro with the RX Super chiller, and that product is actually the entire point of this thread, look at my first post... I specifically post a video about the RX Super Chiller in a camaro.
    Yea, it just seems like the only thing this requires to be effective is an air/water manifold. The S54 is an I6, so the VF supercharging kit might be your best reference point for how to design the N54 manifold, would obviously just need to redesign from the S54's ITBs to the N54's single throttle body:

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    The thing is, this is great for people like the OP that aren't interested in running meth just to keep IATs down (I know meth also significantly raises octane, but that's not wat is being discussed here).


    My biggest "gripe" with this is there A) actually a market for it and B) will it be more effective then the currently available air/air + meth setup.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    Let me guess, this doesn't count because its only a concept. Well, there is a reason they patented it and concepts drive the innovation that reflects what we get in real cars. Thats a bold statement considering the following. Perhaps you should call them and let them know they are wrong and none of what they are saying is factual, engineered properly or seen any real testing:

    http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=14096
    So basically what you're saying is ford tested it on a concept and it was amazing. They developed the whole system and then didnt impliment it on any of their cars because??? This isn't a new idea. Its just not an idea that has been adopted on any meaningful level. There is a reason for that.

    Again, I ain't going to stop you, but with 130F ambient it makes much more sense to cool chemically. Your AC system is working hard as hell to cool the cabin only with 120F outside. Now throw in the intake... The AC system doesn't run for free. It takes thousands of watts to power. I would be interested in seeing how effective it is at cooling with those temps outside. That would be one benefit of this setup.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    So basically what you're saying is ford tested it on a concept and it was amazing. They developed the whole system and then didnt impliment it on any of their cars because??? This isn't a new idea. Its just not an idea that has been adopted on any meaningful level. There is a reason for that.

    Again, I ain't going to stop you, but with 130F ambient it makes much more sense to cool chemically. Your AC system is working hard as hell to cool the cabin only with 120F outside. Now throw in the intake... The AC system doesn't run for free. It takes thousands of watts to power. I would be interested in seeing how effective it is at cooling with those temps outside. That would be one benefit of this setup.
    I think a more rationale explanation is it wasn't effective in certain climates and tuning the ac system to work in all climates would be a pain in the ass plus reliability issues probably play a role in this, not to mention the extra cost per power gained for those not in a higher climate. It was probably cheaper since they had the flexibility, to just bump the power up through Intake exhaust, boost or liters. Not that it wasn't possible to do correctly.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    Yea, it just seems like the only thing this requires to be effective is an air/water manifold. The S54 is an I6, so the VF supercharging kit might be your best reference point for how to design the N54 manifold, would obviously just need to redesign from the S54's ITBs to the N54's single throttle body:

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    The thing is, this is great for people like the OP that aren't interested in running meth just to keep IATs down (I know meth also significantly raises octane, but that's not wat is being discussed here).


    My biggest "gripe" with this is there A) actually a market for it and B) will it be more effective then the currently available air/air + meth setup.
    Interesting. I don't think this would ever be a feasible thing to market as an aftermarket mod unless the car was already A2W cooled.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    Interesting. I don't think this would ever be a feasible thing to market as an aftermarket mod unless the car was already A2W cooled.
    That was posted late last nite, you could possibly adapt the VF S54 air/water manifold directly to the N54. You just need to compare the VF intake plenum vs. the OEM intake manifold and measure the cylinder spacing, intake size and the oil filter clearance. Chances are you'd get a minor HP bump just from a better flowing intake manifold. You could probably adapt a custom charge pipe right before the VF manifold & snake an intake under the entire plenum and place a filter where the the Vortech blower/intake tract is.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
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    Let me guess, this doesn't count because its only a concept. Well, there is a reason they patented it and concepts drive the innovation that reflects what we get in real cars. Thats a bold statement considering the following. Perhaps you should call them and let them know they are wrong and none of what they are saying is factual, engineered properly or seen any real testing:

    http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=14096
    still waiting for them to release it, especially in a new L..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
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    still waiting for them to release it, especially in a new L..
    The Lightning F150 is sitting on a shelf somewhere, it's all about the Raptor F150s for right now
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    Its completely different. Think about the volume of water flowing past the heat sink in a water cooled computer versus the chip size. Also the density of the heat source requires this sort of setup and the computer doesn't have 70mph wind blowing across the front of it. Porsche may use air to water, but if they do its for packaging constraints, same with the gt40. Where the hell are you going to put an air to air intercooler on a Porsche which has its engine in the back? The comparison to the radiator of the car is just plain stupid. The magnitude, temperature, and concentration of the heat are all completely different. Do you really want to suggest a system as large and complex as the car cooling system to lower IATs 30F? The car cooling system operates at a completely different temp... Air to water shines when you want the shortest intake runs and have packaging constraints, it doesn't get as cold as air to air without AC wired in, which is silly. If you really want to reinvent the wheel, do it, but there is a reason no car manufacturer currently, or ever in the future, will implement this "feature".
    I'm sorry it's really not all that different as it really is physics with how the properties each move heat.

    You need more surface area for air as well. And ambient temps have a greater affect with air only.

    There are a lot of variables but it really boils down to how the systems are engineered. Water/air for example can be placed in more areas without seeing the drop in efficiency air/air would. I'm running water/air for a reason.

    As far as not getting as cold, it can move more heat so I don't know what else to tell you other than your engine isn't air cooled, Porsche no longer uses it either. It's a natural evolution.

    If you can't cool as much or more why even bother with water cooling in the first place? Because it does.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    Straight off ProCharger's website (http://www.procharger.com/centrifugalsupercharger.shtml), reinforcing that Air/Air > Air/Water
    Keep in mind Procharger is saying that to make their centrifugal setup appear superior to positive displacement competitors. Air/air is cheaper and easier with a centrifugal versus positive displacement which generates more heat.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    So basically what you're saying is ford tested it on a concept and it was amazing. They developed the whole system and then didnt impliment it on any of their cars because??? This isn't a new idea. Its just not an idea that has been adopted on any meaningful level. There is a reason for that.
    The reason is cost.

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