Close

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 109
  1. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Houston under a book
    Posts
    1,336
    Rep Points
    2,501.8
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    26


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I can't think of a better place than Arizona for intercooler sprayers and water/meth injection.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    919
    Rep Points
    780.4
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    So, adding extra heat into the refrigerant from the cooling core IMPROVES the AC system? Can someone explain how this is possible? Perhaps it has something to do with the Liquid-> Gas transition and forcing of the refrigerant to become hotter, and gather more cooling from the a2w heat exchanger at the front of the car? I know that the compressors job is actually to make the refrigerant hot so this can happen, which is why it is compressed to create more gaseous heat.
    All refrigeration and therefore air-conditioning relies on temperature differential between hot and cold sides. By increasing the heat at the hot side, you are essentially improving the efficiency of the refrigeration and therefore the effects of the airconditioning.

    EDIT:
    No, the compressor works in two ways but uses the same principle. It increases the pressure (therefore heat) on the hot side and decreases the pressure (removes heat) from the cold side of things. The bigger the differential between the two sides, the higher the efficiency.
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!
    Click here to enlarge

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    All refrigeration and therefore air-conditioning relies on temperature differential between hot and cold sides. By increasing the heat at the hot side, you are essentially improving the efficiency of the refrigeration and therefore the effects of the airconditioning.

    EDIT:
    No, the compressor works in two ways but uses the same principle. It increases the pressure (therefore heat) on the hot side and decreases the pressure (removes heat) from the cold side of things. The bigger the differential between the two sides, the higher the efficiency.
    So, by increasing heat on the hot side of the refrigerant lines, aka at the evaporator, are we REALLY making the system more efficient? Efficient in what way? Is this the compressor that is more efficient by creating more pressure on the hot side making it 'easier' to do its job or are we allowing the cold side to absorb heat better?
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    an air to air will get closer to ambient than air to water unless you are wiring in the AC system. At that point though, just spray the air to air IC. Much better.
    Well when your Actual ambient after the asphalt heatsoak is accounted for shows 130, getting back to ambient, even if that were to happen isn't really much better. I do see benefit in the spray, but I'm not a N20 guy just for the fact that I'm lazy and don't like to refill $#@! or run out. And I'm much more likely to blindly believe that a system could be configured properly and not have issues. Although this is not going to be the case, I believe there could be a process of refinement that would allow this. Its like anything else, turbos themselves have their own high rate failure compared to an all motor engine, but we still use them.
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Houston under a book
    Posts
    1,336
    Rep Points
    2,501.8
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    26


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    So, by increasing heat on the hot side of the refrigerant lines, aka at the evaporator, are we REALLY making the system more efficient? Efficient in what way? Is this the compressor that is more efficient by creating more pressure on the hot side making it 'easier' to do its job or are we allowing the cold side to absorb heat better?
    Well... yes and no. If by efficiency, you mean the transfer of heat out of the AC system, then yes... it will require the compressor to run longer, increasing the high side pressure to the condenser, which increases it's temperature relative to outside, and increases heat transfer through the condenser.

    BUT... and this part's important, only to a point. Think of it like this. High pressure, liquid refrigerant is passed to the evap core through the expansion tube. It turns into a gas. Expanding gasses absorb energy. It will expand until it's removed all the heat it can. If you add an intercooler, it will expand some more to absorb energy from the IC. This is the "low" side of the compressor. Picture the compressor as being activated by the low side pressure. As soon as it is high enough (from expanding/absorbing heat), the compressor kicks on and HIGHLY pressurizes the gas, sending it to the condenser. When it compresses the gas, it gets HOTT, and the condenser cools it off.

    So-
    increase demand on the LOW/COOL side, you increase its respective pressure ---> compressor turns on in response

    The compressor will run until one of two things happen: low side pressure drops (relative to ambient temps etc), or high side pressure increases too high.

    The higher the low side pressure, the higher the high side because the compressor is running more. At some point, you will be turning off the compressor because the high side is too high. You have now maxed your system out. It's at its peak efficiency per ambient conditions. To increase beyond this, you must increase the cooling capacity of the condenser somehow. Fans, sprayers, larger surface area (larger condenser), etc.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,725
    Rep Points
    31,540.5
    Mentioned
    2064 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    316


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Bad idea. Main reason for air water is packaging constraints. You're adding weight and reducing efficiency.
    Not a bad idea at all and it isn't always about packaging constraints. The properties of water simply allow it to carry away more heat. It can cool something further than air alone can so not sure what you mean by reducing efficiency. The main danger is heat soak if the system is overwhelmed.

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,725
    Rep Points
    31,540.5
    Mentioned
    2064 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    316


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Miami's temperature records are measured in the 90's. Arizona's are measured in the 100's and 110's.

    Phoenix September 2012:
    I think you are forgetting to factor in the humidity.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    801.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Not a bad idea at all and it isn't always about packaging constraints. The properties of water simply allow it to carry away more heat. It can cool something further than air alone can so not sure what you mean by reducing efficiency. The main danger is heat soak if the system is overwhelmed.
    It is a bad idea, for the reasons I already stated. You will never get the charge air as cool with an air to water system as you will with air to air. The exception to this is if you pack ice or do something silly like tie in your A/C unit to feed your charge air. You are confusing efficiency with capacity. An air to air system is more efficient than an air to water system since it has less circuits and can get a lower intake temp. An air to water system may or may not have more capacity. The water can suck up more heat per volume, but ultimately it has to cool that water the same way an air to air setup would.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    664
    Rep Points
    1,747.0
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    18


    Reputation: Yes | No
    I would postulate that cars that come with A2W intercoolers tied into the a/c system have a/c systems of significantly higher than normal capacity. There is no free lunch.

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think you are forgetting to factor in the humidity.
    This is a factor that does affect power most definitely. I don't have formulas but using my common sense I can know this. I'd still be willing to bet that all the negatives that come with a hotter IAT will largely outweigh the humidity taking away from the combustion composition of oxygen. In fact, I'm pretty sure when humidity is up, you can run more advance, just less fuel. And if the boost target is easier to hit with a lower IAT that can be compensated with more boost... Is this correct at all or am I talking out my ass.
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    It is a bad idea, for the reasons I already stated. You will never get the charge air as cool with an air to water system as you will with air to air. The exception to this is if you pack ice or do something silly like tie in your A/C unit to feed your charge air. You are confusing efficiency with capacity. An air to air system is more efficient than an air to water system since it has less circuits and can get a lower intake temp.
    Silly is a matter of perspective. Look at the deltas:

    Ambient A2A intercooler at cooling 110* ambient vs AC assisted A2W intercooler cooling at 30-40*.

    An air to water system may or may not have more capacity. The water can suck up more heat per volume, but ultimately it has to cool that water the same way an air to air setup would.
    No, it wouldn't. Its got the ac system supplementing the a2a heat echanger in an a2w setup. The 'facts' that many people are using here are valid for traditional a2w setups. Every setup I've mentioned in this thread is assuming AC assistance, which there is little data on, and mostly references good outcomes. Even SVT says ac assisted a2w has benefits in every day driving.
    Last edited by klipseracer; 02-26-2013 at 07:35 PM.
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Here is a pretty cool link, different subject. There is a right way and wrong way to do A2W, just depends on how its implemented:
    http://www.fordgt500.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12893
    Links to:
    http://www.fastlaneturbo.com/fastlan...cuzzipump.aspx
    Last edited by klipseracer; 02-26-2013 at 07:45 PM.
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  13. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    In fact, I'm pretty sure when humidity is up, you can run more advance, just less fuel.
    I may have this backwards actually. I think there are just a lot of variables involved here but you may have to retard with humidity, i'm no tuner.
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,725
    Rep Points
    31,540.5
    Mentioned
    2064 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    316


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    You will never get the charge air as cool with an air to water system as you will with air to air.
    This quite simply is not true.

  15. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,725
    Rep Points
    31,540.5
    Mentioned
    2064 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    316


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    This is a factor that does affect power most definitely. I don't have formulas but using my common sense I can know this. I'd still be willing to bet that all the negatives that come with a hotter IAT will largely outweigh the humidity taking away from the combustion composition of oxygen. In fact, I'm pretty sure when humidity is up, you can run more advance, just less fuel. And if the boost target is easier to hit with a lower IAT that can be compensated with more boost... Is this correct at all or am I talking out my ass.
    Humidity affects DA how exactly I don't know but the humidity makes it so temp is not solely the deciding factor among other things like elevation.

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Houston under a book
    Posts
    1,336
    Rep Points
    2,501.8
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    26


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Humidity reduces the density of the air, so for every volume of air compressed by the turbocharger you will have a less dense fraction of oxygen. It's about 1% density per 25% humidity, so on a very humid day you could lose around 3-4% air density, which is noticeable.

    Humid air is not like water injection, the gas is already vaporized, you will get no phase change and no additional cooling. Basically, it's nothing but bad.

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    801.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This quite simply is not true.
    Without AC it is.

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    801.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    No, it wouldn't. Its got the ac system supplementing the a2a heat echanger in an a2w setup. The 'facts' that many people are using here are valid for traditional a2w setups. Every setup I've mentioned in this thread is assuming AC assistance, which there is little data on, and mostly references good outcomes. Even SVT says ac assisted a2w has benefits in every day driving.
    Sorry I should of stated I as talking without AC. With AC sure it could work, but my point is that the amount of BTU you are trying to remove from the water is so much, and the AC system so inefficient, that it doesn't make sense. Do a chemical cool and save yourself the mpg, the weight, and the slow response.

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,725
    Rep Points
    31,540.5
    Mentioned
    2064 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    316


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Without AC it is.
    How so? You are saying air still needs to cool the radiator but water can move away far more heat.

    It's really no different than a water cooled computer versus air cooled. Water cooled is ultimately superior. Your motor is water cooled too for a reason.

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How so? You are saying air still needs to cool the radiator but water can move away far more heat.

    It's really no different than a water cooled computer versus air cooled. Water cooled is ultimately superior. Your motor is water cooled too for a reason.
    BAZINGABINGO!

    If you had a $#@!ty radiator, then we're in the same boat as we are speaking about now. Now the engine water is at a much higher temp than the water we want in the A2W circuit, however it is capable of keeping scorching combustion temps down and that's why we require the thermostat valve to stop cooling once it is warmed up. If A2A really was the best, Porsche would probably still be running it and modern cars would bypass the radiator and just put a fan on the engine. I think its just a matter of being 'properly setup' as I've been trying to say.
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Do a chemical cool and save yourself the mpg, the weight, and the slow response.
    http://www.autoevolution.com/news/vi...ner-26149.html

    BMW Using Electric AC Compressor:
    Electric compressors also improve passenger comfort, as the cabin can be pre-conditioned before passengers enter and can be cooled faster because of the independent operation from the engine running speed. Also, cabin comfort can be maintained when the engine is idling or off.
    Can we say High Speed electric AC Compressor running while WOT and both compressors running after a pull to help recoup faster? 30 seconds until back to a 40-50 degree IAT? Hell yeah I'd buy it. $#@!, I'd stack five of these in series inside my trunk if I had to and have them run throughout WOT and between pulls if I could see winter grade IAT's all year round in AZ.

    What do you mean exactly by slow response? The extra weight is undeniable. If I use meth again, it will be primarily as an octane booster and/or an IAT buffer if heat soak does occur. Telling me to spray meth is like telling me to skip forced induction and just go N20. Save weight, slow response, complexity, and fuel mileage. Dang, I must be the first one to discover nitrous.

    With this thought, maybe I should just build an S65 and shoot N20 to the sky.
    Last edited by klipseracer; 02-27-2013 at 01:45 AM.
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    BMW F01 LCI 7 Series Active Hybrid 7 Electric AC Compressor:

    http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...21&hg=64&fg=50

    Downside? 1200 bucks. Time to find a salvage car:

    http://www.bmwpartsupply.com/OEMPart...529240287.html

    Here is a new one from Sierra with 15k BTU capability if you got the power for $674

    http://www.revoltevc.com/climate/cooling.html
    Last edited by klipseracer; 02-27-2013 at 01:57 AM.
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Houston under a book
    Posts
    1,336
    Rep Points
    2,501.8
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    26


    Reputation: Yes | No
    So much back and forth... what is the question or is there a debate or something?
    A2A pros- simple, convenient, cheap, cools to ambient at best, recovers quick
    Cons- most sensitive to temp increase under boost with smaller cores, most sensitive to pressure loss from core, longer piping.

    A2W pros- best resistance to temperature change under load, smaller, placed in line with turbo/tb, less restrictive/less pressure loss
    Cons- complicated, expensive, average temps above ambient, heatsoak if anything not working right

    Refrigerated A2W pros- Same as A2W and cools below ambient, faster thermal recovery
    Cons- complexity, may compromise ac system, complexity, cost

    Chemical only pros- no pressure loss, shortest possible piping, average temps most stable and can go below ambient, no heatsoak, raises effective octane
    Cons- cost, flow dependent, must refill, maintenance, complexity

    The answer seems so clear, unless you really just feel like doing something different. Again, with enough octane, or gas with enough latent heat (e85), the iat's mean very little. Your engine is simply a heat pump, it doesn't matter if you deal with the heat in an intercooler or in the combustion chamber really. That's all I got.

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    I have a feeling electric AC compressor is going backwards though, lol
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Rep Points
    2,484.0
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Again, with enough octane, or gas with enough latent heat (e85), the iat's mean very little. Your engine is simply a heat pump, it doesn't matter if you deal with the heat in an intercooler or in the combustion chamber really. That's all I got.
    In AZ and most of the west coast, 91 or E85 is your only option. I plan on running E85 for my purposes so we'll see what ends up mattering in the end. You can only push boost so far however regardless of octane of the fuel. Defeating the issue at its root is really what my thread is about.
    Click here to enlarge
    Join the largest N5X Enthusiasts Group! 1200+ Members Strong!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/n5xenthusiasts/

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •