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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    You've clearly never been to AZ in the summer. We get 110* in september. Come to AZ in the summer and you wouldn't say what your saying now, lol.
    I've played baseball in AZ in the summer, I know how hot it can get. But the thing is AZ's air usually has a very low humidity, which makes the hot air much easier to cool than in FL (high humidity).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    AC Evaporator. This is the entire point of my thread and makes everything you're saying matter much less. Evaporator will cool the coolant to 30*.
    Until you've created a legitimate, effective Air/Water setup for the N54, you cannot be dependent on the AC Evaporator being your "saving grace", especially when you have no idea if it'd work on your custom N54 Air/Water Intercooler. Meanwhile, Meth has been a proven, effective IAT suppressant from Day 1 on this platform.

    Everything you're saying is hypothetical and VERY hopeful. I'll cite the S65 as a fellow BMW platform + offers both air/water or air/air FI setups, but there's a reason why a lot of the S65 (a very IAT sensitive motor) supercharger kits with the most R&D utilize air/air -- The G-Power, Active Autowerke & Evolve. While the air/water setups (Gintani, ESS, VF) offer similar performance, you road track those cars & they'll be the 1st ones to see timing reductions because of less effective IAT cooling once the coolant temp rises.

    If you speak with any high HP tuner (who are all much more knowledgeable then me or you), many of them will advocate for air/air over air/water on street cars and track cars.
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  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I've played baseball in AZ in the summer, I know how hot it can get. But the thing is AZ's air usually has a very low humidity, which makes the hot air much easier to cool than in FL (high humidity).


    Until you've created a legitimate, effective Air/Water setup for the N54, you cannot be dependent on the AC Evaporator being your "saving grace", especially when you have no idea if it'd work on your custom N54 Air/Water Intercooler. Meanwhile, Meth has been a proven, effective IAT suppressant from Day 1 on this platform.

    Everything you're saying is hypothetical and VERY hopeful. I'll cite the S65 as a fellow BMW platform + offers both air/water or air/air FI setups, but there's a reason why a lot of the S65 (a very IAT sensitive motor) supercharger kits with the most R&D utilize air/air -- The G-Power, Active Autowerke & Evolve.

    If you speak with any high HP tuner (who are all much more knowledgeable then me or you), many of them will advocate for air/air over air/water on street cars and track cars.
    The system I'm referencing isn't hypothetical. Its actual. its posted in this thread. Its all over the internet. This is you trying to disprove me, based on untrue facts or knowledge. It is hotter in az than just about anywhere else in the states. FMIC is rendered useless in AZ. Factual, FMIC does cool but it doesn't do enough. Meth is a requirement at that point to see a reasonable IAT. Is A2A better for most people? Sure. But how can you know its better for me in my weather conditions? You can say "oh the air there is easier to cool because its less humid". If thats true, well god damn because my AMS FMIC didn't do $#@! here in the summer. Got its ass handed to it. You may have 'played' baseball in AZ. But I've lived here for a decade.

    Tell me what is hypothetical about cooling an intake charge with Freon? There is lots of science about this. Is it more complex? of course. But is there anything scientific you don't understand about cooling potential of Freon vs 110* ambient air?

    I mean, at the end of all of this, A2W could be a $#@!ty idea for most people. But for a guy like me wanting to stay away from methanol reliance and just pump E85, and not have a bunch of timing pulled in the summer, there aren't really many other options.
    Last edited by klipseracer; 02-24-2013 at 09:55 PM.
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  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    The system I'm referencing isn't hypothetical. Its actual. its posted in this thread. Its all over the internet.
    I'll restate what I said:
    Everything you're saying is hypothetical and very hopeful, and until you've created a legitimate, effective Air/Water setup for the N54, you cannot be dependent on the AC Evaporator being your "saving grace".

    You cannot make claims saying "an air/water setup with the AC Evaporator will be more effective on the N54 then air/air because it works on other platforms" when there is not a single air/water setup on the N54 OR the data to support your optimistic claims. If/When you make an Air/Water intercooler for the N54 AND successfully run the AC Evaporator lowering your coolant temps AND have the data that supports AND that data justifies the cost of this mod vs. Aftermarket FMICs + Meth, then you can assert these claims.
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I'll restate what I said:
    Everything you're saying is hypothetical and very hopeful, and until you've created a legitimate, effective Air/Water setup for the N54, you cannot be dependent on the AC Evaporator being your "saving grace".

    You cannot make claims saying "an air/water setup with the AC Evaporator will be more effective on the N54 then air/air because it works on other platforms" when there is not a single air/water setup on the N54 OR the data to support your optimistic claims. If/When you make an Air/Water intercooler for the N54 AND successfully run the AC Evaporator lowering your coolant temps AND have the data that supports AND that data justifies the cost of this mod vs. Aftermarket FMICs + Meth, then you can assert these claims.
    Your preaching applies to yourself as well using this line of thought. So why the sudden drive to prove me wrong when you don't know either? There is no reason for me to provide data vs methanol, although I would, because I'm trying to stay away from it if possible. Remember?
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  5. #30
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    If someone is hell bent of doing something that has been done over and over and over and over, and the results are well documented then you just have to let him. Its good to experiment. I am not saying that its not. Just 99.9% sure after you get done with everything you will back in this thread with the exact results you could have gotten by just reading some accounts of people doing it on a different platform. This debate has raged for YEARS. ATW is just not the best method for keeping IAT's down if you have room for a nice size ATA for a daily driver. If this is your race car, then you are on the right track to making every last HP. Good luck either way, would be interesting to see where you put the tank, pump, heat exchanger etc.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    If someone is hell bent of doing something that has been done over and over and over and over, and the results are well documented then you just have to let him. Its good to experiment. I am not saying that its not. Just 99.9% sure after you get done with everything you will back in this thread with the exact results you could have gotten by just reading some accounts of people doing it on a different platform. This debate has raged for YEARS. ATW is just not the best method for keeping IAT's down if you have room for a nice size ATA for a daily driver. If this is your race car, then you are on the right track to making every last HP. Good luck either way, would be interesting to see where you put the tank, pump, heat exchanger etc.
    Are there any links you can reference me to in ultra high temp environments? I'm talking 100*+... My whole summer suffers these temps.
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  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Are there any links you can reference me to in ultra high temp environments? I'm talking 100*+... My whole summer suffers these temps.
    Going air to water isn't magic. This system is going to have to deal with the same heat soaking and high temps as the air to air. That heat exchanger you posted is woefully small for any decent sized ATW system and the hot air that has to flow through it is going to do the same job cooling it as it would your ATA. If you want to go with an refrigerated system, I think the complexity of that is WAY above any added benefit. I don't have any links. Just google Air to air vs Air to water intercoolers. You will find hundreds if not thousands of threads / articles

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Going air to water isn't magic. This system is going to have to deal with the same heat soaking and high temps as the air to air. That heat exchanger you posted is woefully small for any decent sized ATW system and the hot air that has to flow through it is going to do the same job cooling it as it would your ATA. If you want to go with an refrigerated system, I think the complexity of that is WAY above any added benefit. I don't have any links. Just google Air to air vs Air to water intercoolers. You will find hundreds if not thousands of threads / articles
    The heat exchanger is really just dependent on the size of the a2w charge cooler, right? Smaller the charge cooler and the less heat it absorbs, the smaller the heat exchanger would need to be, I'd assume. I've read a great number of threads on A2W with back and forth responses, but have yet to find one that wasn't based around a one time dyno improvement and driven in a hot environment.
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  9. #34
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    I was thinking.. you could just run the meth nozzle on the OUTSIDE of the IC, and have it mist a fine water spray over the actual intercooler.. probably the best way to do it.. if you do a dual m1 on each side, facing at and 1/2 way in, it would be enough to cool things off and not have water dripping for safety issues.. set boost trigger low, like 3-4-5 ish psi..and progressive

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    I was thinking.. you could just run the meth nozzle on the OUTSIDE of the IC, and have it mist a fine water spray over the actual intercooler.. probably the best way to do it.. if you do a dual m1 on each side, facing at and 1/2 way in, it would be enough to cool things off and not have water dripping for safety issues.. set boost trigger low, like 3-4-5 ish psi..and progressive
    The DSM guys have been doing something similar for years, except they use a pressurized CO2 system to spray the IC. Honestly, that's what i would do before going all out on a A2W setup. Of coarse, that's going to require a constant eye on CO2 levels.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    The DSM guys have been doing something similar for years, except they use a pressurized CO2 system to spray the IC. Honestly, that's what i would do before going all out on a A2W setup. Of coarse, that's going to require a constant eye on CO2 levels.
    co2 and n20 have all been used, but those are pains. thats why i was thinking water.. but realisticly, i cant forsee anything being better than meth injection.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    co2 and n20 have all been used, but those are pains. thats why i was thinking water.. but realisticly, i cant forsee anything being better than meth injection.
    Meth is bad, it makes engines go boom.

    On topic, I'm all about "keep it simple". A2W adds another level of complexity to our already overly complicated engine management. I don't think the benefits are worth it. Just MHO.
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  13. #38
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    Haven't been keeping up but just to respond

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Always loved those cars, remember reading a lot about the northstar swaps with turbos, but it seems like I never saw any of them with good ET's. Maybe it was the transmission holding them back?
    FWD transmission was a big setback, although being in the back helped TONS for traction. Depending on what you do they could be in the 9's and 10's, but 11's and 12's were much more common. The 2800lb weight helped but hey it's a product of the 80's. I can pull 1.6 60' all day long on all season tires in that car, but as for ET's, ehh well the car is fun. I actually built and own one of those Northstar powered cars, with 180 degree headers, and just listed it for sale yesterday. Lol.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Water is supposed to transfer heat more efficiently, are you sure either your A2W charge cooler or heat exchanger wasn't insufficient? What sizes were they? was the heat exchanger mounted in the front ala FMIC? Or just mounted somewhere in the back with a fan? Then again, any experience you have here is more than me.
    The core was big in terms of A2W. The heat exchanger was a large sportbike radiator mounted in the front of the car with copper lines running the length of the body. The system was surprisingly efficient at cooling the water. Here is a link to one of his threads I dug up if you want to check it out. http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forced-...o-build-97661/

    The system worked, but it heated up over time to over ambient. We couldn't cool the system to under ambient naturally, similar to A2A, and while the intercooler core and heat exchanger core were both very efficient they were not 100%. In the heat of summer in Colorado (it would get over 100 frequently), it would see 150+ degree temps IIRC. Again, it was only used for space concerns as you can see if you check the build.

    If I do anything similar again, knowing what I know now, I would design a good chemical intercooler method (methanol) instead. Seeing how effective it is on non intercooler 1500hp platforms really changes your perspective on it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    co2 and n20 have all been used, but those are pains. thats why i was thinking water.. but realisticly, i cant forsee anything being better than meth injection.
    I agree 100%.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    ....FMIC is rendered useless in AZ. Factual, FMIC does cool but it doesn't do enough. Meth is a requirement at that point to see a reasonable IAT. Is A2A better for most people? Sure. But how can you know its better for me in my weather conditions? You can say "oh the air there is easier to cool because its less humid". If thats true, well god damn because my AMS FMIC didn't do $#@! here in the summer. Got its ass handed to it. You may have 'played' baseball in AZ. But I've lived here for a decade.
    I just moved here from Maine. I don't think many of these guys realize just how hot it is. Sure, ambient can be hot, 110, even up to 120 degrees is not uncommon, but that's not what your engine is seeing. Driving on the highway, there is so much heat absorbed (and reflected) by the asphalt that my in-car thermometer would regularly read up to 130 degrees. This is moving at 75 mph, off boost. Air intake temps were ~154 degrees. That's not a good starting point. Things only get worse when you get on the throttle.

    The problem with a consensus is that it's usually very much generalized. A2A is preferred for a reason. I'm a mechanical engineer, and I've done a lot of heat exchanger work, so I understand these reasons. A2W is not as efficient. Of course. In this terrible climate (well, terrible for AIT's, not terrible for hot ASU girls walking around not wearing a lot) we're going to have to do SOMETHING different. I think that's what klipseracer is saying.

    If I may, what I'm getting from you is something along the lines of "Yes, I know A2W isn't preferred, but I'm in a situation where I already have a great FMIC and I'm making about 4 whp due to air intake temps close to the temp on the surface of the sun, so throw me a bone and help me come up with an idea that suits my (somewhat unusual) circumstance, and oh by the way, I'll look at any idea to improve my situation."

    I get it. I feel the same. Here are my immediate thoughts on this:

    1: The stock a/c system is not that robust. Reference: me replacing most of it last summer, and time it takes to cool the vehicle on a hot day, as compared to, say, a 11 year old volvo, any of the subaru's I've had, my girlfriends mercedes, etc etc.
    2: A2W based on our a/c system will work, somewhat, but from what I've seen, I don't think it has enough balls, for lack of a better word (okay, headroom) to be able to cool AIT's also, at least in a capacity that makes doing all the work worthwhile. Perhaps we could look into a compressor upgrade (larger vehicle maybe?) then we could be in business. I suspect this would be expensive as f*&%.
    3: I would be game to meet up with you and work on some sort of sprayer for the FMIC. I don't care about actuation, we can cross that bridge when we get to it. I'm thinking water would be worth investigating as it's usually so dry out, evaporation is very fast.
    4: Thermal coatings bear investigation. I don't think salvation lies in them, but anything would help.
    5: There is no 5. Not yet.

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    I agree, if you are seeing those intake temps you will need to do something. Inject meth is going to be your best option. If its 150F intake and 130F to your AC system hot side, you are just adding more load to that. Meth is a chemical solution and a no brainer in that case.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    I just moved here from Maine. I don't think many of these guys realize just how hot it is. Sure, ambient can be hot, 110, even up to 120 degrees is not uncommon, but that's not what your engine is seeing. Driving on the highway, there is so much heat absorbed (and reflected) by the asphalt that my in-car thermometer would regularly read up to 130 degrees. This is moving at 75 mph, off boost. Air intake temps were ~154 degrees. That's not a good starting point. Things only get worse when you get on the throttle.

    The problem with a consensus is that it's usually very much generalized. A2A is preferred for a reason. I'm a mechanical engineer, and I've done a lot of heat exchanger work, so I understand these reasons. A2W is not as efficient. Of course. In this terrible climate (well, terrible for AIT's, not terrible for hot ASU girls walking around not wearing a lot) we're going to have to do SOMETHING different. I think that's what klipseracer is saying.

    If I may, what I'm getting from you is something along the lines of "Yes, I know A2W isn't preferred, but I'm in a situation where I already have a great FMIC and I'm making about 4 whp due to air intake temps close to the temp on the surface of the sun, so throw me a bone and help me come up with an idea that suits my (somewhat unusual) circumstance, and oh by the way, I'll look at any idea to improve my situation."

    I get it. I feel the same. Here are my immediate thoughts on this:

    1: The stock a/c system is not that robust. Reference: me replacing most of it last summer, and time it takes to cool the vehicle on a hot day, as compared to, say, a 11 year old volvo, any of the subaru's I've had, my girlfriends mercedes, etc etc.
    2: A2W based on our a/c system will work, somewhat, but from what I've seen, I don't think it has enough balls, for lack of a better word (okay, headroom) to be able to cool AIT's also, at least in a capacity that makes doing all the work worthwhile. Perhaps we could look into a compressor upgrade (larger vehicle maybe?) then we could be in business. I suspect this would be expensive as f*&%.
    3: I would be game to meet up with you and work on some sort of sprayer for the FMIC. I don't care about actuation, we can cross that bridge when we get to it. I'm thinking water would be worth investigating as it's usually so dry out, evaporation is very fast.
    4: Thermal coatings bear investigation. I don't think salvation lies in them, but anything would help.
    5: There is no 5. Not yet.
    Awesome! Somebody who feels my, 'pain'. I would love to meet but I am actually not in possession of an N54 at the moment. I've been eyeballing a few cars and getting back into the game any moment. Regardless I think there could definitely be an improvement to the existing AC System, potentially through the heat exchanger, compressor etc. It could even possibly be the evaporator in the 335i sucks, but apparently you've got some hands on that I don't here, so maybe you could shed some light. I'll probably spend some time on increasing efficiency on the system as well. I think there will still be some condensation as others have noted, but the good thing about it condensating to the point it pools, is it will have a somewhat predictable pooling 'streaking' path. Say for instance it pools onto the bottom on the inside of the pipe, I realize it may pool anywhere, but the velocity of the air will push it up the pipe and by cutting a hole in the charge pipe in a good spot to not induce too much of a obstruction to the air movement, and installing a collector of sorts would allow it to fall into the collector which is sealed and could have a drain screw at the bottom.

    There are some thermal coatings I believe that actually increase sweating and condensation so some testing would have to be done.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Haven't been keeping up but just to respond



    FWD transmission was a big setback, although being in the back helped TONS for traction. Depending on what you do they could be in the 9's and 10's, but 11's and 12's were much more common. The 2800lb weight helped but hey it's a product of the 80's. I can pull 1.6 60' all day long on all season tires in that car, but as for ET's, ehh well the car is fun. I actually built and own one of those Northstar powered cars, with 180 degree headers, and just listed it for sale yesterday. Lol.



    The core was big in terms of A2W. The heat exchanger was a large sportbike radiator mounted in the front of the car with copper lines running the length of the body. The system was surprisingly efficient at cooling the water. Here is a link to one of his threads I dug up if you want to check it out. http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forced-...o-build-97661/

    The system worked, but it heated up over time to over ambient. We couldn't cool the system to under ambient naturally, similar to A2A, and while the intercooler core and heat exchanger core were both very efficient they were not 100%. In the heat of summer in Colorado (it would get over 100 frequently), it would see 150+ degree temps IIRC. Again, it was only used for space concerns as you can see if you check the build.

    If I do anything similar again, knowing what I know now, I would design a good chemical intercooler method (methanol) instead. Seeing how effective it is on non intercooler 1500hp platforms really changes your perspective on it.
    Nice build!
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  19. #44
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    I agree with spraying atomized water on the outside of the A2A intercooler. You would get the benefit of the phase change absorbing heat as the liquid water turned to vapor, and it would be far less complicated (read as "expensive and prone to failure").

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    Realistically, the best an A2A can do is get CATs near ambient. That's where an A2W IC can be useful, however actually making that happen is easier said than done. If I lved in AZ I would be looking into pre and post turbo method injection, chemical cooling is going to be your most efficient option. Good luck with the build whatever route you choose.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Realistically, the best an A2A can do is get CATs near ambient. That's where an A2W IC can be useful, however actually making that happen is easier said than done. If I lved in AZ I would be looking into pre and post turbo method injection, chemical cooling is going to be your most efficient option. Good luck with the build whatever route you choose.
    an air to air will get closer to ambient than air to water unless you are wiring in the AC system. At that point though, just spray the air to air IC. Much better.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    an air to air will get closer to ambient than air to water unless you are wiring in the AC system. At that point though, just spray the air to air IC. Much better.
    I was thinking thinking more along the lines of dry ice in the water box to get below ambient, but either way once things start to heat soak it be worse than with an A2A. I don't see the cooling system being robust enough to keep up, Although if you were to run a second, dedicated AC system it would work a lot better... but that's a helluva lot of work.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Realistically, the best an A2A can do is get CATs near ambient. That's where an A2W IC can be useful, however actually making that happen is easier said than done. If I lved in AZ I would be looking into pre and post turbo method injection, chemical cooling is going to be your most efficient option. Good luck with the build whatever route you choose.
    If you sprayed liquid water on the outside of the A2A intercooler, due to the water absorbing heat as it changed phase to vapor, IATs below ambient would be possible. The latent heat of vaporization (enthalpy of vaporization) of water is higher than many other substances, including ammonia and freon, both common refrigerants. This latent heat is the amount of heat the water needs to absorb before phase changing.

    A climate with low humidity would be perfect for such a system, as the water would readily evaporate.

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    I'm a big fan of looking at the path of least resistance. I think a simple water sprayer on the intercooler would be the easiest thing to try out first. I'm game to waste time and some $ doing this, lol.

    Edit: Obviously I'm excluding meth injection, as I'm looking at something that can be used in addition to that, as well as something different. Meth will be explored later.

    Additionally, I do like the idea of a cooler powered by the A/C, I just also recognize the complexity of such a system, when considering the drawbacks of additional system load on the A/C unit.
    Last edited by SCGT; 02-25-2013 at 05:53 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    If you sprayed liquid water on the outside of the A2A intercooler, due to the water absorbing heat as it changed phase to vapor, IATs below ambient would be possible. The latent heat of vaporization (enthalpy of vaporization) of water is higher than many other substances, including ammonia and freon, both common refrigerants. This latent heat is the amount of heat the water needs to absorb before phase changing.

    A climate with low humidity would be perfect for such a system, as the water would readily evaporate.
    Yep, and i actually mentioned that exact same thing earlier in the thread. I was talking about an A2A IC in it's most basic purpose, exchanging the heat of the charge air with that of the ambient temps.
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