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  1. #276
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Once the hardware is out if it works well anyone can tune it as they please. Click here to enlarge
    That is definitely one of the many pros of this kind of a large turbo upgrade over others.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    It's borderline the worst tuning (not integrated) and definitely the worst failsafe when not integrated with a piggyback, also don't like the tank options, but it has the best compression fittings included. And the best flow sensor. All considered it's a good option but must be integrated with a piggyback to be "safe" IMHO.
    Disagree. This topic of meth "integration" has been discussed many times before and really no point going at it again. However, given what you said let me say this, last time I checked JB4's tuning approach was running stock timing maps which do experience timing corrections/knock on pump gas. Its autotuning is based off knock sensor feedback and CPS offsetting doesn't work nearly as well as appropriately adjusted tuning via the flash. Hence the Cobb backend flash to the rescue and JB4 on top for fueling/timing aka the "BMS Flash". BMS is also selling WW meth kits. How's that for (fail)safety. In any case nothing replaces fuel from the fuel tank and injected the way it should be, via DI injectors. Fire away Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 03-01-2013 at 01:21 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

  2. #277
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge

    Tony's running the widely accepted industry workhorse Aquamist HFS-4 with their integrated failsafe. No worries there at all.
    I wonder where he got that from? Click here to enlarge

  3. #278
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    Disagree. This topic of meth "integration" has been discussed many times before and really no point going at it again. However, given what you said let me say this, last time I checked JB4's tuning approach was running stock timing maps which do experience timing corrections/knock on pump gas. Its autotuning is based off knock sensor feedback and CPS offsetting doesn't work nearly as well as appropriately adjusted tuning via the flash. Hence the Cobb backend flash to the rescue and JB4 on top for fueling/timing aka the "BMS Flash". BMS is also selling WW meth kits. How's that for (fail)safety. In any case nothing replaces fuel from the fuel tank and injected the way it should be, via DI injectors. Fire away Click here to enlarge
    We offer the WW kits still but also warn to keep the methanol mixture lower with them, as a leaking WW tank is a fire risk. For someone looking for an easier install who is happy to run -20 WW fluid (33% meth), the WW kits make sense. These days though we sell a lot more of the trunk mount kits. The 2.2g is the most popular. It took a few iterations of fittings to get versions that are reliable but it's pretty well sorted now. I do like the Aquamist flow sensor and if someone wants to run a turbine flow sensor that is what we'd suggest.

    On JB4 boost levels, timing, etc, on pump gas. Reliability has been excellent. I've never heard of an N54 motor blowing in the last few years that didn't involve lots of boost and methanol. Once you get up to 420rw+ territory on meth risks multiply. A meth flow issue will burn up a motor very quickly. The only safe ways to run it are to A) keep tuning conservative enough that the meth isn't doing much for you, or B) progressively increase power as a function of meth flow, not the other way around, as stand alone meth kits and flash tuners do today.

    It's the same thing for E85 where the ethanol ratio can and will vary. To run it safely you must either have a system that can dynamically evaluate timing/knock/fuel trims and adjust as necessary, or just run overly conservative tuning.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  4. #279
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    I've read your ideas on American foreign policy, coming from some dude, who has more than likely not been outside the united states his whole life. That was enough for me.
    Oh you're an expert on where I've been too? The never been outside the United States his whole life random assertion and the N54 pistons being forged when the actual evidence is staring you right on the face are equally spot on.

    Time to remove you from another thread.

  5. #280
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Why is no one discussing upgraded piston, when calling out vishnu for not pushing the car past 654whp? Yeah, you all hate the guy, but why not do it on your own cars first?, before basically calling him a pussy?
    Um it's more people making fun of you for stupid comments man.

  6. #281
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    We offer the WW kits still but also warn to keep the methanol mixture lower with them, as a leaking WW tank is a fire risk. For someone looking for an easier install who is happy to run -20 WW fluid (33% meth), the WW kits make sense. These days though we sell a lot more of the trunk mount kits. The 2.2g is the most popular. It took a few iterations of fittings to get versions that are reliable it's pretty well sorted now. I do like the Aquamist flow sensor and if someone wants to run a turbine flow sensor that is what we'd suggest.
    I would pull that WW kit off the market. Trunk mounted setups have really become the only proper way to go here. There are cars with constant priming issues with them and I'm not talking BMS specifically at all. Trunk mounted with the pump close to the tank and gravity fed works far better and more reliably so.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On JB4 boost levels, timing, etc, on pump gas. Reliability has been excellent. I've never heard of an N54 motor blowing in the last few years that didn't involve lots of boost and methanol. Once you get up to 420rw+ territory on meth risks multiply. A meth flow issue will burn up a motor very quickly. The only safe ways to run it are to A) keep tuning conservative enough that the meth isn't doing much for you, or B) progressively increase power as a function of meth flow, not the other way around, as stand alone meth kits and flash tuners do today.
    That's where we disagree.

    Some people do in fact choose option A but by far those that go with meth do not run conservative tunes as we all know, they go all out.

    For your point B, I simply no longer subscribe to the progressive boost approach ever since I got experience with flash tuning this car with HFS-4 for meth. I liked progressive boost until I realized how much of a mistake it really was. Progressive boost approaches make it almost a necessity for people running meth to go totally OCD and log ALL the time to make sure their meth is flowing, that their car isn't knocking and that their boost isn't 2psi under where they thought it would, or where they dynoed last time, because piggyback's meth auto-detuning decided to silently take it out to keep the car "safe".

    My stand on meth integration on this car is simply let me tune the car with the best methanol kit the market offers that will minimize unknowns when it comes to flow control and will give me the greatest comfort in knowing that at any given point if anything is OFF on the meth side of things I will know immediately as ALL my boost is cut until the flow condition is fixed. With piggies you can end up running at 67.3243% or 83.726% of your total power when meth is partially flowing which on butt dynos may or may not always be felt. You go racing or to dyno and you're making way less power or end up losing the race because you were auto-detuned by progressive boost meth control that didn't let you know your meth was under-flowing and thus undertuning the car. So what happens here? If racing and all out power is something you care about you end up going OCD on datalogging. This really isn't something that most people want out of their cars. They just want to drive them to their fullest and enjoy them and not worry about meth being there. All they should every do is fill up the tank when it runs out, period, end of story. It gets very tiring and frustrating for many to be constantly datalogging their tunes when all they want is to just drive the car and enjoy it AND in case of issues, fix it and move on.

    Lastly, just because motors aren't going doesn't make it a sound tuning approach. Besides that, there have been motors going, with meth and all the piggy fanciness in place. We both know it. Issues can happen with any setup especially when pushing limits, just the nature of the beast.

    All approaches have their pros and cons. At the end of the day its what makes the driver comfortable the most and gives them the most enjoyment out of their car and I don't see any current N54 setup really lacking in that department at any level.
    Click here to enlarge

  7. #282
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmw335iguy Click here to enlarge
    I wonder where he got that from? Click here to enlarge
    I'm sure Tony appreciated not having to buy a meth kit for tuning R&D very much.
    Click here to enlarge

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    The answer is to make MS109 for $3.99/gallon and available everywhere. Straight up race fuel and protune to the maximum safe boost and timing. Screw e85 and meth as they will always cause some sort of headache.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  9. #284
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    The answer is to make MS109 for $3.99/gallon and available everywhere. Straight up race fuel and protune to the maximum safe boost and timing. Screw e85 and meth as they will always cause some sort of headache.
    I wish, but we'd have more success getting CA 93 octane at the pumps 1st. The thing is E85 as fuel offers significant benefits that cannot be ignored over petroleum based fuels -- You can obviously run much more aggressive timing, burn cooler (better for the internals) and let's you run a little leaner with the AFRs safely. Yes, your MPG is gonna blow + yes it requires a higher quality fueling system, but the benefits are legit, proven on every platform and cannot be ignored.
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  10. #285
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Good ole' uncle mike didn't respond to my questions on the differential sticky, 2 months ago. Maybe he should start by addressing the errors on his website.
    You wanna know why people have stopped responding to your posts? It's because you've been accepted as the BimmerBoost Village Idiot & nobody's gonna waste their time with data/factually supported posts that illustrate you're wrong.

    Just from reading your posts & the way you "attack" people, chances are you're some spoiled ~18 year old kid who thinks they know everything and are the toughest mother $#@!er on the scene. The truth is you don't know $#@! about engines, tuning, the physical strength limitations + weaknesses of internals, OR basic english (your grammar + punctuation is pathetic). Just keep up with your act cause it's working out really well for you, 2-0 on being banned from threads champ
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  11. #286
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I wish, but we'd have more success getting CA 93 octane at the pumps 1st. The thing is E85 as fuel offers significant benefits that cannot be ignored over petroleum based fuels -- You can obviously run much more aggressive timing, burn cooler (better for the internals) and let's you run a little leaner with the AFRs safely. Yes, your MPG is gonna blow + yes it requires a higher quality fueling system, but the benefits are legit, proven on every platform and cannot be ignored.

    so... here is a few problems w e85

    it like race gas is not available everywhere
    the price may soon be gone as govt subsidies are due to expire
    it decreases your fuel efficiency
    you get worse blends here and then
    ultimately race fuel will make more power all out and be safer on your fueling system
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  12. #287
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    so... here is a few problems w e85

    it like race gas is not available everywhere
    the price may soon be gone as govt subsidies are due to expire
    it decreases your fuel efficiency
    you get worse blends here and then
    ultimately race fuel will make more power all out and be safer on your fueling system
    I acknowledged both the the MPG decrease + the mandatory fuel system upgrade. The argument that it's "not convenient" is a moot point, since it's not like Race Gas is readily available either (and because of E85's popularity, if you can buy race gas from some shop/the internet, you can just as easily order Race Spec E85 from that same vendor). Quality control is probably the biggest problem when buying E85 from a pump, but you're now conceding your argument on E85's convenience since I've never seen anything higher than 100 octane from a pump.

    E85 right now offers the exact same performance as Q16 Race Gas (the highest you can purchase, but because it's leaded will destroy any cats + your o2 sensors -- E85 doesn't do this). AND if you decide to run that FTW highly oxygenated E85, then you'll be putting out more power than any petroleum based race gas on the market. E85, with or without the govt. subsidy, will always be less expensive than Race Spec fuels because it can easily be made by a very, readily available resource: corn. Making Race Fuel requires petroleum, which requires drilling for oil & the price fluctuations in the marketplace. Since Race Gas is a nice market that shares manufacturing resources with regular pump gas, it's def going to experience price inflation more than E85 would.

    A top-notch fueling system is the biggest problem when running E85, but once that's solved there's no reason to not run it (running E85 as a DD fuel is a different story, but then again who runs 109 Race Gas as a DD fuel?).
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  13. #288
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    For your point B, I simply no longer subscribe to the progressive boost approach ever since I got experience with flash tuning this car with HFS-4 for meth. I liked progressive boost until I realized how much of a mistake it really was. Progressive boost approaches make it almost a necessity for people running meth to go totally OCD and log ALL the time to make sure their meth is flowing, that their car isn't knocking and that their boost isn't 2psi under where they thought it would, or where they dynoed last time, because piggyback's meth auto-detuning decided to silently take it out to keep the car "safe".
    I think you've got it backwards there.

    With progressive control and autotuning the user does not need to datalog. Ever. The tuning adjusts itself. Sure if meth flow drops due to some issue the tuning will drop power to compensate. And the user will notice less boost in dash or less meth flow in dash, if they happen to use the in dash gauges. But no user ever needs to log beyond looking at their in dash gauges. The tuning is logging on the backend for you at all times and making any required adjustments.

    With a flash / non-integrated kit they must always be concerned with whether they have enough octane/meth for the static boost/advance tuned in. This requires constant logging. The way the failsafe works has nothing to do with knock or dynamic conditions. You set a static number which represents the amount of meth flow you need to exceed to prevent a limp. So what if you enter a value too low for your current conditions? Or too high causing false triggers? Who knows? You have to constantly log it. Not to mention meth requirements at lower RPM are going to be a lot different than those at higher RPM. Same goes for different climates.

    Finally, one nice benefit of the piggyback approach other than the auto tuning, progressive control, and a more robust failsafe, is the on the fly flexibility. For example say you want to go to the track and dump in race gas or E85 along with meth. No laptop or logging required, just go into menu 9 in dash and raise your meth additive on the fly. Easy. And no matter what you set with fail safes enabled it will only take effect if octane and meth flow permit. Want to turn meth off all together? It takes 2 seconds in dash.

    And, if you want to disable some or all of the safety systems you can. Previously we had an issue where the 4th gear flatline was picked up as knock. Because it looks like knock to the piggyback. So that was a bit annoying for those who had it. So the option there on the meth side is to disable one of the safety systems, but not all of them. The better option is to add the BMS flash now though which corrects the timing drop all together putting more power to the ground. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  14. #289
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I acknowledged both the the MPG decrease + the mandatory fuel system upgrade. The argument that it's "not convenient" is a moot point, since it's not like Race Gas is readily available either (and because of E85's popularity, if you can buy race gas from some shop/the internet, you can just as easily order Race Spec E85 from that same vendor). Quality control is probably the biggest problem when buying E85 from a pump, but you're now conceding your argument on E85's convenience since I've never seen anything higher than 100 octane from a pump.

    E85 right now offers the exact same performance as Q16 Race Gas (the highest you can purchase, but because it's leaded will destroy any cats + your o2 sensors -- E85 doesn't do this). AND if you decide to run that FTW highly oxygenated E85, then you'll be putting out more power than any petroleum based race gas on the market. E85, with or without the govt. subsidy, will always be less expensive than Race Spec fuels because it can easily be made by a very, readily available resource: corn. Making Race Fuel requires petroleum, which requires drilling for oil & the price fluctuations in the marketplace. Since Race Gas is a nice market that shares manufacturing resources with regular pump gas, it's def going to experience price inflation more than E85 would.

    A top-notch fueling system is the biggest problem when running E85, but once that's solved there's no reason to not run it (running E85 as a DD fuel is a different story, but then again who runs 109 Race Gas as a DD fuel?).
    i have an answer for the both of us but we're both not gonna like it... u know where i am going here
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    i have an answer for the both of us but we're both not gonna like it... u know where i am going here
    I'm all ears lol. All I'm gonna say is that the BMW platform is no where near the ideal marketing platform for E85 usage (especially with all the modern fueling limitations)
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    A top-notch fueling system is the biggest problem when running E85, but once that's solved there's no reason to not run it (running E85 as a DD fuel is a different story, but then again who runs 109 Race Gas as a DD fuel?).
    On my previous car, I ran E85 on my DD Evo 9 without a hitch, but if I knew I was going someplace far and wasn't familiar with the area that had E85 available, I had the luxury of switching maps and running a 93 octane map.

    Whenever this platform has the ability to run 100% E85, I wouldn't hesitate to run it daily as I absolutely love that fuel. The performance increase nullifies the mpg decrease in my opinion.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RnmEvo9 Click here to enlarge
    On my previous car, I ran E85 on my DD Evo 9 without a hitch, but if I knew I was going someplace far and wasn't familiar with the area that had E85 available, I had the luxury of switching maps and running a 93 octane map.

    Whenever this platform has the ability to run 100% E85, I wouldn't hesitate to run it daily as I absolutely love that fuel. The performance increase nullifies the mpg decrease in my opinion.
    That's what I'm going to do -- Have my 93 octane tune, a blend tune & soon a full E85 tune Click here to enlarge The E85 maps are def just for fun & runs to Mexico, but E85 is def not readily available to run it as a DD fuel
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    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  18. #293
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I'm all ears lol. All I'm gonna say is that the BMW platform is no where near the ideal marketing platform for E85 usage (especially with all the modern fueling limitations)
    its made the most power, has the best cooling effects and you cannot max trims with it... like it or not; meth wins under all circumstances. It is the ultimate band aid for this piss poor fueling system we have. Until someone fires off a second set of port injectors or creates a true hpfp upgrade... u can keep complaining.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    its made the most power, has the best cooling effects and you cannot max trims with it... like it or not; meth wins under all circumstances. It is the ultimate band aid for this piss poor fueling system we have. Until someone fires off a second set of port injectors or creates a true hpfp upgrade... u can keep complaining.
    I hate meth, but can't argue with the facts -- The Walbro Fuel Pump upgrade is only gonna work on stock turbo car. Currently meth is the undisputed (and unfortunately) only proven solution for the fueling shortcomings
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I hate meth, but can't argue with the facts -- The Walbro Fuel Pump upgrade is only gonna work on stock turbo car. Currently meth is the undisputed (and unfortunately) only proven solution for the fueling shortcomings
    I hated it too but I realized that on this platform it wins...
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I think you've got it backwards there.

    With progressive control and autotuning the user does not need to datalog. Ever. The tuning adjusts itself. Sure if meth flow drops due to some issue the tuning will drop power to compensate. And the user will notice less boost in dash or less meth flow in dash, if they happen to use the in dash gauges. But no user ever needs to log beyond looking at their in dash gauges. The tuning is logging on the backend for you at all times and making any required adjustments.

    With a flash / non-integrated kit they must always be concerned with whether they have enough octane/meth for the static boost/advance tuned in. This requires constant logging. The way the failsafe works has nothing to do with knock or dynamic conditions. You set a static number which represents the amount of meth flow you need to exceed to prevent a limp. So what if you enter a value too low for your current conditions? Or too high causing false triggers? Who knows? You have to constantly log it. Not to mention meth requirements at lower RPM are going to be a lot different than those at higher RPM. Same goes for different climates.

    Finally, one nice benefit of the piggyback approach other than the auto tuning, progressive control, and a more robust failsafe, is the on the fly flexibility. For example say you want to go to the track and dump in race gas or E85 along with meth. No laptop or logging required, just go into menu 9 in dash and raise your meth additive on the fly. Easy. And no matter what you set with fail safes enabled it will only take effect if octane and meth flow permit. Want to turn meth off all together? It takes 2 seconds in dash.

    And, if you want to disable some or all of the safety systems you can. Previously we had an issue where the 4th gear flatline was picked up as knock. Because it looks like knock to the piggyback. So that was a bit annoying for those who had it. So the option there on the meth side is to disable one of the safety systems, but not all of them. The better option is to add the BMS flash now though which corrects the timing drop all together putting more power to the ground. Click here to enlarge
    There are far more JB4 cars running on pump gas than meth or e85. They are all knocking due to inadequate timing control. What's even worse is that they may not even see half of that knock even if they logged and they're given the old school of thought of ramping up timing curves being ok OR some timing pull on pump gas being just inevitable OR they're advised to run higher octane to clean things up on pump gas which shouldn't be the case at all. All they need is more appropriate tuning, period, not more octane. Many of them don't want high octane, they're fine with pump gas and what it can provide.

    In terms of meth I still disagree. HFS-4 has a highly advanced flow sensor based failsafe which is far better than monitoring current at the pump like stated previously. You could have current at the pump and have flow issues. This was also discussed before.

    Lastly, why have the drivers constantly stare at their boost gauges, meth gauges to know if their tune is running right or constantly check if meth is flowing 65% of where it should be and them having to figure out that this is the reason why they're detuned and slow.

    All you're really doing with the JB4 is playing around with electronics adding features that really aren't required to have a safe reliable tune. On top of that they're making people go OCD with logging. This is simply fact. There's no benefit to it and it can be far simpler.

    The car gets tuned for X level of octane, in this case 100% meth let's say. Failsafe is setup to detect any meth flow issues. If anything is off failsafe dumps boost and lets the user know 100% there's an issue and they can address it. They can run the gauge in the ashtray with the lid closed or in the glove compartment never having to look at it until there's a flow condition to which they're alerted to appropriately.

    In the JB4 progressive boost auto-detuning world you run them at X% of power because meth is at X%. Autotuning itself rides the knock sensors until boost gets low enough so it doesn't knock. Your argument is that its not a bad approach as it hasn't been proven to hurt motors over 6 years and that's fine. That doesn't make it any better though.

    I pick the approach we're using because the user doesn't need to know about all the intricacies of tuning to have a fast car. They only need to fix issues when they're there instead of running at 7/8ths of power, realizing they are, datalogging and figuring out what happened. The fact that you also advise them to prime their WW based meth systems by spraying their washers and going WOT putting full load on the motor when there's no meth flow on a tune that is aggressive at first (set for meth), is that really also a good feature to have? How can that be good?

    Forums are full of posts with people racing and later saying they lost their race or their 1/4 numbers are lower than they hoped only to later realize they had meth flow issues and they weren't flowing fully. I personally was in those shoes with my old setup, got very tiring. Had they known on time they would've addressed it or their mechanic would, they wouldn't have lost the race and would've gone home without having having to carry their laptop out of the car with them every single day.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 03-01-2013 at 06:48 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Why is no one discussing upgraded piston, when calling out vishnu for not pushing the car past 654whp? Yeah, you all hate the guy, but why not do it on your own cars first?, before basically calling him a pussy?
    Thats called R&D, its the excuse he uses why he charges 10x what the value of the parts are.




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    There are far more JB4 cars running on pump gas than meth or e85. They are all knocking due to inadequate timing control. What's even worse is that they may not even see half of that knock even if they logged and they're given the old school of thought of ramping up timing curves being ok OR some timing pull on pump gas being just inevitable OR they're advised to run higher octane to clean things up on pump gas which shouldn't be the case at all. All they need is more appropriate tuning, period, not more octane. Many of them don't want high octane, they're fine with pump gas and what it can provide.

    In terms of meth I still disagree. HFS-4 has a highly advanced flow sensor based failsafe which is far better than monitoring current at the pump like stated previously. You could have current at the pump and have flow issues. This was also discussed before.

    Lastly, why have the drivers constantly stare at their boost gauges, meth gauges to know if their tune is running right or constantly check if meth is flowing 65% of where it should be and them having to figure out that this is the reason why they're detuned and slow.

    All you're really doing with the JB4 is playing around with electronics adding features that really aren't required to have a safe reliable tune. On top of that they're making people go OCD with logging. This is simply fact. There's no benefit to it and it can be far simpler.

    The car gets tuned for X level of octane, in this case 100% meth let's say. Failsafe is setup to detect any meth flow issues. If anything is off failsafe dumps boost and lets the user know 100% there's an issue and they can address it. They can run the gauge in the ashtray with the lid closed or in the glove compartment never having to look at it until there's a flow condition to which they're alerted to appropriately.

    In the JB4 progressive boost auto-detuning world you run them at X% of power because meth is at X%. Autotuning itself rides the knock sensors until boost gets low enough so it doesn't knock. Your argument is that its not a bad approach as it hasn't been proven to hurt motors over 6 years and that's fine. That doesn't make it any better though.

    I pick the approach we're using because the user doesn't need to know about all the intricacies of tuning to have a fast car. They only need to fix issues when they're there instead of running at 7/8ths of power, realizing they are, datalogging and figuring out what happened. The fact that you also advise them to prime their WW based meth systems by spraying their washers and going WOT putting full load on the motor when there's no meth flow on a tune that is aggressive at first (set for meth), is that really also a good feature to have? How can that be good?

    Forums are full of posts with people racing and later saying they lost their race or their 1/4 numbers are lower than they hoped only to later realize they had meth flow issues and they weren't flowing fully. I personally was in those shoes with my old setup, got very tiring. Had they known on time they would've addressed it or their mechanic would, they wouldn't have lost the race and would've gone home without having having to carry their laptop out of the car with them every single day.
    If someone wants to run meth without an adequate failsafe system in place as you are suggesting they can certainly do that also with the JB4. Say a nozzle is partially clogged or someone mixes in too much water with their meth kit. Your argument is you'd rather have them run 100% boost with aggressive knock retard because then they won't lose the race. You can't be serious?

    What makes meth so dangerous compared to pump gas tuning and even E85 tuning is the potential for a massive octane swing. When meth is flowing the DME always adapts up to 100% of its timing ceiling with no long or short term timing pulled. So when meth suddenly drops or even during spool up before meth starts, you invite massive knock. That is what blows the motors and that is why most failures specifically involve methanol. Running 18psi on methanol and having it suddenly stop flowing is MUCH more dangerous than running 18psi on 91 octane where the DME goes in to protection mode with its short and long term trims.

    On the FSB it seems you're missing some fundamental understanding of how the setup works. For example if the system is not properly primed, then there will be a low meth flow. The JB4 does not increase it's boost target until meth is flowing. So an unprimed WW system will run low boost levels. There are various factors that are added in to determine the transition from low boost to high boost (and full CPS to no CPS). Meth flow is one of them, average ign retard is another, as are fuel trims. These parameters join together in such a way that if there is no meth flow, or if there is a lot of meth flow but its all water, that boost will not increase above the low boost values. The JB4 can perform this task with a turbine sensor just as easily as the FSB system.

    No fail safe system is truly 100% and they all rely on various forms of data. What makes the piggyback approach superior is the types of the data it's making decisions on and the way in which that data is used to change the engine tuning. Your argument basically amounts to "ignorance is bliss" and that you'd rather just have the tuning be 100% static, and "spray and pray" that the octane is sufficient, that whatever value you set for the failsafe cutoff is enough to prevent massive knock, etc. That is fine and I'm sure support is a lot easier that way. I just think you're missing the point on the benefits of the piggyback control approach.

    I'm also not following you on the laptop stuff. What would you need a laptop for? The JB4 monitors timing, meth flow, etc, and makes a decision as to how aggressively to run the tuning based on that data. If you disagree with the JB4 you might log to double check the data it used to make its decision. Or you might use a laptop to disable some safety system. But anything else would be done in dash. I personally have the JB4 show boost and timing in dash and find them completely indispensable. I can't imagine flooring the car without that data available at a glance should I feel the need to look at it. And since the gauges go back to fuel and oil temp when not racing around there is no real drawback to having it on full time.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-01-2013 at 07:19 PM.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Yes Terry, we always recommend inadequate failsafes to people Click here to enlarge

    Speaking of inadequate failsafes, we've refused quite a number of potential customers already asking us to custom tune stacked meth setups with FSBs for reasons already stated, namely inadequacies, overall limitations and lack of visibility into the picture of what the overall tune is doing. Some of those customers are on these forums.

    I think its time to for me to end this conversation, from this end at least. I don't think going further would bring any additional valuable information to this thread than hasn't already been discussed above and we're taking up quite a bit of valuable forum space in a Vishnu thread Click here to enlarge

    In the end, if I personally had E85 I'd run it all the time. Meth would only be used to cool the air charge.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Yes Terry, we always recommend inadequate failsafes to people Click here to enlarge

    Speaking of inadequate failsafes, we've refused quite a number of potential customers already asking us to custom tune stacked meth setups with FSBs for reasons already stated, namely inadequacies, overall limitations and lack of visibility into the picture of what the overall tune is doing. Some of those customers are on these forums.

    I think its time to for me to end this conversation, from this end at least. I don't think going further would bring any additional valuable information to this thread than hasn't already been discussed above and we're taking up quite a bit of valuable forum space in a Vishnu thread Click here to enlarge

    In the end, if I personally had E85 I'd run it all the time. Meth would only be used to cool the air charge.
    I'm not saying the sky is going to fall with the way your failsafe is setup. Just pointing out as Josh did that it's not exactly the "bees knees". On the FSB system I think you just don't fully understand how it all works. The FSB is just a device that allows us to send a high current PWM signal to the pump and solenoid, and returns information on load for a given PWM. The software is what provides the "failsafe" using that data long with timing, fuel trims, etc, to create a layered failsafe and autotuning strategy. Without the JB4 software the FSB won't do anything for you. And with the JB4 in place no custom tuning is really needed. So I can understand why you would pass on that business.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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