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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    DTM is Nascar with right turns, cookie cutter spec race cars with different grill badges....thats a fact.
    I don't disagree but BMW still won.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    BMW has not done anything relivent with theirnroad cars in years and they keep taking steps backwards.
    I don't disagree here either.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't disagree but BMW still won.



    I don't disagree here either.
    At least we agree on something. Back when you purchased you E92 it was a somewhat competetive car for the segment but in the mean time AMG has continued to up the anti with their Black Series line and cars like the Camaro ZL1 and Mustang Boss 302 and Cobra and Audis RS5 have all out gunned the M cars. I honestly never thought I woukd see the day that a Chevy or Nissan could flat out $#@! slap an M3...remeber Sticky, I used to be a die hard M guy.
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  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    At least we agree on something. Back when you purchased you E92 it was a somewhat competetive car for the segment but in the mean time AMG has continued to up the anti with their Black Series line and cars like the Camaro ZL1 and Mustang Boss 302 and Cobra and Audis RS5 have all out gunned the M cars. I honestly never thought I woukd see the day that a Chevy or Nissan could flat out $#@! slap an M3...remeber Sticky, I used to be a die hard M guy.
    BMW left the M3 stagnant. They just want money now, that's it.

    I've even thought about seriously writing a book on the topic of how BMW sold out.

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Bottom line, BMW has not done $#@! since the E46. The E9x is an awesome car , don't get me wrong, only problem is the is a company named MB/AMG competing with them and overshadowing their every move. New M5.....LMAO, Epic fail.

    You only need to take a look at the Lightening Lap results to see where BMW stands in the global performance market and that is behind AMG....and Audi......and ummmmmm Chevy.....and Ford........and LMAO Jaguar
    While MB is certainly ahead of BMW in building easily modified cars the last few years M enjoyed that for far longer. I'm in the middle of choosing my next car and really as much as I try to convince myself on the new E63 its looks arent great and if it drives similar to the current E its a bit soft. The awd thing is the only thing pulling me toward MB or a GTR. The biggest drawback to seeing the M5 run as it should right now is bmw making the tuning so damn difficult but from what AMS seems to be saying they might have a way around that. If your being as closed minded as to just look at numbers the ctsv $#@!s on all in that segment and iirc no MB in history has run what a full out ctsv will run fairly easily.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Bottom line, BMW has not done $#@! since the E46. The E9x is an awesome car , don't get me wrong, only problem is the is a company named MB/AMG competing with them and overshadowing their every move. New M5.....LMAO, Epic fail.

    You only need to take a look at the Lightening Lap results to see where BMW stands in the global performance market and that is behind AMG....and Audi......and ummmmmm Chevy.....and Ford........and LMAO Jaguar
    e92 335i did beat e.g. Audi S4 in the lighting lap 2006 or 2007. S4 was considered more M3 opposition than being in the league of the low 335i. The BMW stagnation has happened after 2007 and e9x introduction.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I am not sure though. Why do we want an M3 (taking the extreme end of this) with All Wheel Drive? I would rather them put their money into a trick diff over all wheel drive. All the retards over at nonsensepost.com are saying "PLEASE BMW!!! MY NEXT DREAM M3 WOULD BE TURBO AND AWD" - sad part is BMW caters to these people (enough people scream and yell - they will get it).

    I want a freaking performance car, not this fluffy cute bull$#@!. I don't see the point of an AWD car to be honest, unless we are talking 1000s of horsepower. I have driven many - they feel disconencted, and most of the time heavy. I even think it's ridiculous to offer a 911 in AWD unless it's a turbo (maybe). We see how a performance car can be in the snow with proper tires (M3 vs summer tire thread) - there is absolutely no reason for AWD unless you are TRULY using it for rocking the dragstrip.

    /rant
    When RWD and AWD were let to compete in WRC, it was soon clear which one is true performance car if you measure it by championships. After 1982 when Audi Quattro entered WRC, the 2WD was doomed. The last manufacturer's championship won by a 2wd car was 1983 Lancia Rally 037, my all time favorite car. But let's face it, since year 1984 AWD has dominated for three decades straight. This is with very limited displacement and very limited turbo inlet diameter, i.e. far below 1000hp.

    The M3 in the snow you refer to is VERY slow. I would beat it running, lol.

    Click here to enlarge

    Have something like in the above, and the slippery conditions don't bother you.

    I have enough power to lose traction several days, weeks and even months in a year. If you don't have traction problems ever, you are probably not having power enough.

    The AWD has clear merits, especially on ice and snow. Not offering xi in the models that have the most power/torque does not make any sense. Why do they offer xi in 160bhp vehicles then? The traction MUST BE A PROBLEM even at that level since they are offering it and people are buying them, wouldn't you agree?

    I'm NOT against of having RWD option available. i believe M3 must have RWD option. But why are some people opposing options such as xi, that clearly make sense for many?

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    When RWD and AWD were let to compete in WRC, it was soon clear which one is true performance car if you measure it by championships. After 1982 when Audi Quattro entered WRC, the 2WD was doomed. The last manufacturer's championship won by a 2wd car was 1983 Lancia Rally 037, my all time favorite car. But let's face it, since year 1984 AWD has dominated for three decades straight. This is with very limited displacement and very limited turbo inlet diameter, i.e. far below 1000hp.

    The M3 in the snow you refer to is VERY slow. I would beat it running, lol.

    Click here to enlarge

    Have something like in the above, and the slippery conditions don't bother you.

    I have enough power to lose traction several days, weeks and even months in a year. If you don't have traction problems ever, you are probably not having power enough.

    The AWD has clear merits, especially on ice and snow. Not offering xi in the models that have the most power/torque does not make any sense. Why do they offer xi in 160bhp vehicles then? The traction MUST BE A PROBLEM even at that level since they are offering it and people are buying them, wouldn't you agree?

    I'm NOT against of having RWD option available. i believe M3 must have RWD option. But why are some people opposing options such as xi, that clearly make sense for many?
    Meh, I don't know. I drive on asphalt not dirt, so the only thing that could change the amount of friction is snow. I live in Chicago, and wouldn't say that the few times a year is worth AWD. Just my opinion. I really don't think a 300 or 400 (500, 600, 700) horsepower car needs AWD is what I am saying. I like the feel of RWD - I admit I have not tried some of the better systems out there, but of what I have tried? No thanks.

    I again - personally don't understand going from RWD to AWD for a few times a year, but that's just me. I like playing with less traction, it's fun. Click here to enlarge

    Why do they offer AWD on 160 hp vehicles? I have no idea. That's my point. Maybe for countries where it's snowing or is icy a few months out of the year - but I can't be sure. I don't mind a 335i in all wheel drive, but an M3 or M5? I personally think that the entire chassis should be redesigned (or a whole different car) - you just don't slap AWD on a car with 50/50 weight distribution - which was clearly done for the merits of RWD.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    ou just don't slap AWD on a car with 50/50 weight distribution - which was clearly done for the merits of RWD.
    So what happened to the 50/50 weight distribution?

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    e92 335i did beat e.g. Audi S4 in the lighting lap 2006 or 2007. S4 was considered more M3 opposition than being in the league of the low 335i. The BMW stagnation has happened after 2007 and e9x introduction.
    I totally agree and you are provng my point, what has BMW done since 2007-2008, that was 5-6 years ago and they are now on a new generation boy/engine platform. Is a new 2013 335i really any better than a 2008 335i? I do not thnk so.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    While MB is certainly ahead of BMW in building easily modified cars the last few years M enjoyed that for far longer. I'm in the middle of choosing my next car and really as much as I try to convince myself on the new E63 its looks arent great and if it drives similar to the current E its a bit soft. The awd thing is the only thing pulling me toward MB or a GTR. The biggest drawback to seeing the M5 run as it should right now is bmw making the tuning so damn difficult but from what AMS seems to be saying they might have a way around that. If your being as closed minded as to just look at numbers the ctsv $#@!s on all in that segment and iirc no MB in history has run what a full out ctsv will run fairly easily.

    AMG builds easily modifiable cars????? Hmmmmm, this is news to me LOL
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    AMG builds easily modifiable cars????? Hmmmmm, this is news to me LOL
    He's probably referring to the turbo motors.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    He's probably referring to the turbo motors.
    Easily modified to me means buying a Mustang GT500, going to Summit racing's website dropping $2500 on headers, exhaust, intake, pulley and tune and going to the drag strip and running high 10's......
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    I totally agree and you are provng my point, what has BMW done since 2007-2008, that was 5-6 years ago and they are now on a new generation boy/engine platform. Is a new 2013 335i really any better than a 2008 335i? I do not thnk so.
    No! The 08 335i is better than the 2013. N54 FTW!

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Easily modified to me means buying a Mustang GT500, going to Summit racing's website dropping $2500 on headers, exhaust, intake, pulley and tune and going to the drag strip and running high 10's......
    So Renntech tune and running 10's doesn't qualify?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So Renntech tune and running 10's doesn't qualify?
    Good point....LOL but the Renntech tune costs more than all the other stuff for the Mustang
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  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Good point....LOL but the Renntech tune costs more than all the other stuff for the Mustang
    Was just going by the $2500 price point. AMG's have gotten easier to modify with the turbo motors.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Was just going by the $2500 price point. AMG's have gotten easier to modify with the turbo motors.
    I agree, but to my point why are tuners not able to do the same with the new M5 tt?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    I agree, but to my point why are tuners not able to do the same with the new M5 tt?
    They are: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...2-wheel-torque

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Easily modified to me means buying a Mustang GT500, going to Summit racing's website dropping $2500 on headers, exhaust, intake, pulley and tune and going to the drag strip and running high 10's......
    Its basically the same with the AMG cars with the exception that it will be more like $25,000. But it can be done and there are a lot of tuners making big power on recent AMG's. That to me is easily modified, not cheaply modified mind you but easily. Conversely bmw doesnt have the big tuners going for 1, 000whp+ builds and apparently cracking their ecu's is next to impossible. To me difficult is like my 550i which ive had for 2+ years, have shipped out to a bunch of different places to be the first to get this or that done, and have plenty of money to throw at it and no one to take it cause there isnt $#@! out for them. Look at the N54 and how many years its been out and they can barely make 600whp reliably. In my case I'm bored with my car and was looking at a 2014 E63 only because I know within a few months of having it I can be making big numbers.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    Good point....LOL but the Renntech tune costs more than all the other stuff for the Mustang
    Silly to determine the best based on cost. Hell for what you paid for the BS CLK I could have bought a CTSV coupe and built it and run circles around you never mind what you've spent after purchase. Does that make it better? For these types of cars money is rarely and issue.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's heavy but it is putting out the most power and BMW included a dual clutch while Mercedes was not able to even in the facelift. The all wheel drive option is nice though for the facelift.

    Agreed they have fallen off but also remember the M5/M6 were the cars used. I fully expect a Black Series to run circles around BMW.

    I do not disagree that Mercedes has much better higher performance options. I will be making a switch soon.
    Looking to start a new project soon so if your making the switch I might have a slightly modified clk black series on the block.
    Click here to enlarge

    I will quit being rude if you quit being stupid.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ecampbell Click here to enlarge
    Looking to start a new project soon so if your making the switch I might have a slightly modified clk black series on the block.
    I appreciate the offer but I will be starting a new project as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So what happened to the 50/50 weight distribution?

    Sorry, should have been more clear here, although you bring up a great point that this doesn't seem as important to them anymore. I can't be sure - but I think that the latest M offerings aren't even close to 50/50 as they used to be.

    What I meant - is that when engineers put so much effort into a chassis - and just simply throw AWD on it and call it day doesn't seem to make sense. I guess Porsche is doing it, and they seemed to have done a good job with the latest Porsche 991/911, but I think that the whole car should be built with this type of thing in mind. There is a huge difference between FWD, AWD and RWD - point is, something as "serious" as what I would call basically "a race car for the street" should have a bit more thought into it before adding axles, clutches, differentials, etc. just to make people happy in case it snows.

    If they want to make an AWD supercar, great - but I am against the adding it as an option for safety as opposed to performance. None of the AWD systems from BMW actually increase performance in any way, contrary to Subaru, the GT-R, etc... I don't even know where I am going with this. Click here to enlarge

    Oh, I would rather have them invest the effort in something serious as opposed to adding another option to make sales. That's what I am trying to say.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    Sorry, should have been more clear here, although you bring up a great point that this doesn't seem as important to them anymore. I can't be sure - but I think that the latest M offerings aren't even close to 50/50 as they used to be.
    They definitely are not and it's a shame considering the BS we are being fed especially right here.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    What I meant - is that when engineers put so much effort into a chassis - and just simply throw AWD on it and call it day doesn't seem to make sense.
    Have they considering they are differing from their famed 50/50 balance more than they ever have?

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    Exactly... I think they used to tout the 50/50 balance - it was even in a commercial IIRC. Why these ideals don't matter today? Drives me nuts. You CAN feel the difference that a perfectly balanced car provides - that's what made these cars so damn special. Now they are powerful cars - that's about it.

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