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  1. #26
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    Hmmm and here i've been thinking of jumping ship from bmw and getting a gtr or E63. I wonder if their packages will work for an N63 or if ill have to get an M5. Frankly I prefer the M5 to the E and the gtr is small for my needs so glad to see there might be a future in this platform after all.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Hmmm and here i've been thinking of jumping ship from bmw and getting a gtr or E63. I wonder if their packages will work for an N63 or if ill have to get an M5. Frankly I prefer the M5 to the E and the gtr is small for my needs so glad to see there might be a future in this platform after all.
    WELL since you're contemplating an F10 M5, you should also know that Switzer is cooking up an S63 Tu upgrade as well: http://switzerperformanceinnovation.com/web_en/?p=1941. Cannot go wrong with either of those companies.
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  3. #28
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    ESS will be doing the tuning on this. I'm sure a few of you will love that.

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    ESS will be doing the tuning on this. I'm sure a few of you will love that.
    ESS is doing the tuning on an AMS project (who has always done their own tuning) Click here to enlarge Yea I don't think so, you have any confirmation?
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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    ESS will be doing the tuning on this. I'm sure a few of you will love that.
    We'll see how/if they do. I don't know why AMS wouldn't do it themselves.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    ESS is doing the tuning on an AMS project (who has always done their own tuning) Click here to enlarge Yea I don't think so, you have any confirmation?
    AMS doesn't do their own tuning solutions on any platform that I'm aware of. They use Cobb on the GTR etc but they have never created their own tuning solution they just tuned on what was available. I spoke to AMS yesterday and they had told me that they wouldn't be doing the tuning but didn't give any more info. Today I was on the thread where all the info here came from and asked about tuning and the IND rep wrote that ESS would create a tune for it. Hell I thought it was a mistake and asked him if he meant to say AMS and he said:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ilia@IND Click here to enlarge
    We will work with ESS to develop software specifically tailored to AMS hardware packages. In developing our F10 M5 project our goal was to partner with the best possible companies, to allow for the best possible M5. We feel that by putting all of the right people in the roles where they are most capable, we will be able to offer an excellent performance package for our clients.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    We'll see how/if they do. I don't know why AMS wouldn't do it themselves.
    I believe for the reason above.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    AMS doesn't do their own tuning solutions on any platform that I'm aware of. They use Cobb on the GTR etc but they have never created their own tuning solution they just tuned on what was available.
    While AMS is using the COBB AP, it's still AMS doing all the end tuning. If they leave it up to ESS, chances are they're gonna be in way over their heads. AMS does big HP turbo platforms, so it would bein their wheelhouse if they did the tuning themselves. I'm sure when Switzer starts releasing F10 M5/F12 M6 packages, they'll be doing all their own tuning for the same reasons, it's in their wheelhouse.
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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    AMS doesn't do their own tuning solutions on any platform that I'm aware of. They use Cobb on the GTR etc but they have never created their own tuning solution they just tuned on what was available. I spoke to AMS yesterday and they had told me that they wouldn't be doing the tuning but didn't give any more info. Today I was on the thread where all the info here came from and asked about tuning and the IND rep wrote that ESS would create a tune for it. Hell I thought it was a mistake and asked him if he meant to say AMS and he said:



    I believe for the reason above.
    IND and ESS work together so we'll see I guess.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    While AMS is using the COBB AP, it's still AMS doing all the end tuning. If they leave it up to ESS, chances are they're gonna be in way over their heads. AMS does big HP turbo platforms, so it would bein their wheelhouse if they did the tuning themselves. I'm sure when Switzer starts releasing F10 M5/F12 M6 packages, they'll be doing all their own tuning for the same reasons, it's in their wheelhouse.
    Right I agree completely but what I gathered from the guy at AMS they were alittle out of their depth when it came to cracking the bmw DME(who the $#@! isn't apparently) and ESS has been at it for a while so they are leaving the tuning in ESS's hands. I'm sure they will have a say in how things are done but I know ESS has been trying to get to be able to tune these dme's on the F10 for over 2 years so I dont think they are willing to just hand that over. Switzer from what I was told after you posted up about them yesterday doesn't have the DME cracked either. That is what separates bmw from most platforms it seems, the fact that 99% of "tuners" out there cant really WRITE a tune and change everything to their liking like they can on other platforms. I have to admit I was pretty disappointed when they wrote that ESS was handling the tuning.

    When you say its in their wheelhouse its not really accurate. Yes they are very good at making hardware and tuning a car for that hardware on an existing tuning platform. However neither company goes in and creates a program to actually tune any car they use existing programs which is why they need ESS. I think the problem in this case is that ESS sells tunes not tuning software like a COBB or Motec so they need to be doing the tuning to stay involved, but thats just my speculation.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Right I agree completely but what I gathered from the guy at AMS they were alittle out of their depth when it came to cracking the bmw DME(who the $#@! isn't apparently) and ESS has been at it for a while so they are leaving the tuning in ESS's hands. I'm sure they will have a say in how things are done but I know ESS has been trying to get to be able to tune these dme's on the F10 for over 2 years so I dont think they are willing to just hand that over. Switzer from what I was told after you posted up about them yesterday doesn't have the DME cracked either. That is what separates bmw from most platforms it seems, the fact that 99% of "tuners" out there cant really WRITE a tune and change everything to their liking like they can on other platforms. I have to admit I was pretty disappointed when they wrote that ESS was handling the tuning.
    Exactly so how are they going to figure out what is necessary to make a 1000 HP setup work? They don't even have their tune available yet and we're already talking big turbos, fuel systems, etc.?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Exactly so how are they going to figure out what is necessary to make a 1000 HP setup work? They don't even have their tune available yet and we're already talking big turbos, fuel systems, etc.?
    Thats where AMS comes in, all the hardware is cake for them and actually tuning the car isn't the hard part. The hard part is being able to control the DME exactly how you want to be able to write a tune in the first place. That is what everyone is stuck at and what ESS appears to have just been able to do. Whether that is the case or not we will shortly find out. If they can control the dme fully I dont think the rest will be a problem but at least I've heard from several tuners out there who claim they can and upon further inspection its false. I hope its true cause I'm about 4 months away from ordering a new car and if they show in that time they actually can WRITE a tune instead of simply install one they got from someone else as all the other companies(dinan excluded) are doing I'll be getting an M5.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    actually tuning the car isn't the hard part.
    I disagree, it's the hardest part. The BMW DME takes years to figure out correctly. We are only just now getting an S54 factory DME tuned turbo kit.

    This isn't going to be easy.

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    Take ESS out of the standalone & skip cracking the BMW DME -- It's gonna be easier (and more effective for their HP goals) to go complete standalone with the engine management system, especially with the turbo tuning and management.

    It seems like ESS was only invited to the party because they're more familiar with working on the BMW DME. Honestly, I would've expected them to contact more tenured BMW tuners, specifically Active Autowerke (there's ~0% Dinan would get involved with this kind of a project), but for all we know AA was contacted and has preferred to avoid collaboration projects like this.
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  14. #39
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    Problem with a standalone is you lose all the other functions that depend on the DME. I-drive, etc.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I disagree, it's the hardest part. The BMW DME takes years to figure out correctly. We are only just now getting an S54 factory DME tuned turbo kit.

    This isn't going to be easy.
    We are saying the same thing. Cracking the DME and figuring it out is whats difficult, not so much writing a tune for x y z mods once we have full control. ESS apparently claims they do which if true should mean that writing a tune for whatever ams cranks out shouldn't be too tough. I have my doubts as you do whether they actually do have that type of control as I dont think anyone does(which is why I was getting out of bmw in the first place).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Problem with a standalone is you lose all the other functions that depend on the DME. I-drive, etc.
    This. You wont see a standalone on this platform ever I would think because of how integrated the stock DME is with all the other functions the car performs.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    We are saying the same thing. Cracking the DME and figuring it out is whats difficult, not so much writing a tune for x y z mods once we have full control. ESS apparently claims they do which if true should mean that writing a tune for whatever ams cranks out shouldn't be too tough. I have my doubts as you do whether they actually do have that type of control as I dont think anyone does(which is why I was getting out of bmw in the first place).
    Well you said the tuning is easy but I'm including that in the factory DME so yes overlap.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Problem with a standalone is you lose all the other functions that depend on the DME. I-drive, etc.
    We'll see, cause that's what Undercover's been saying about the ProEFI standalone -- that it should allow the user to keep iDrive, Comfort Access, etc etc while controlling all engine related functions. I don't know how the ProEFI works on the turbo E46 M3s, but I assume that the Nav & Keyless Entry haven't been negatively impacted (just like on the AEM/HPF Turbo M3s).

    I don't think it'd be worthwhile comparing to other platforms (since the BMW DME is it's own beast), but the GTR, 997 Turbos + TT-Gs don't lose their Nav, Keyless Entry or any other features when they go standalone (with MoTec, ProEFI, Syvecs, etc etc etc)
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    This. You wont see a standalone on this platform ever I would think because of how integrated the stock DME is with all the other functions the car performs.
    "standalone" by definition.. maybe not.. but piggy back with full motor control.. maybe. With newer ecu's like Syvecs having the capability to program CAN developers can now do more than just throwing resistors in to trick the dme into thinking its still controlling the injectors, coils, etc.. you can now intercept and or modify can signals back to the stock dme thus tricking it into thinking all is fine.

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    Btw, taking a CMM/3D Laser scan of the engine bay is step 1.. they still have a long ways to go.

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    Awesome

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    We'll see, cause that's what Undercover's been saying about the ProEFI standalone -- that it should allow the user to keep iDrive, Comfort Access, etc etc while controlling all engine related functions. I don't know how the ProEFI works on the turbo E46 M3s, but I assume that the Nav & Keyless Entry haven't been negatively impacted (just like on the AEM/HPF Turbo M3s).

    I don't think it'd be worthwhile comparing to other platforms (since the BMW DME is it's own beast), but the GTR, 997 Turbos + TT-Gs don't lose their Nav, Keyless Entry or any other features when they go standalone (with MoTec, ProEFI, Syvecs, etc etc etc)
    Yes but look at how hard it is to get the standalone to work in conjunction with the factory DME. Nobody has even done it yet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes but look at how hard it is to get the standalone to work in conjunction with the factory DME. Nobody has even done it yet.
    Perhaps stand-alone is misleading, like ZooyorQ said the modern trend has been "stand-togethers" where the aftermarket EMS controls all engine related functions while the OEM DME is maintained to keep all the factory "convenience features".

    BUT you addressed it, while a lot of other platforms it's easier to adapt this to (the GTR, 997 Porsche, etc), BMW's tech people have made it very difficult for retuning the OEM DME and even dual-EMS (DME + Standalone) integration
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  24. #49
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    I'm sick of BMW's electronic bull$#@!.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    AMS has the ability to tune ECU's in house for almost all cars. They have the ability to decode stock files and rewrite to them. It cost them a small fortune and TONS of development hours but they do indeed write all of their tunes in house. Not just load some file you can buy but actually write the tune and calibrate it custom on their dyno. They do this for the R8, Gallardo, Continental GT, new E63 etc etc etc. At the present time they do not have the ability to read and write to the BMW M5 ECU and for this reason they are going to work with ESS and IND to offer an immediate solution. When they are given the ability to read and write to the factory ECU they will have their own tuning options available as well.

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