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Thread: The N54 is not a German 2JZGTE and general BMW M50 engine line lessons to a moron

              
  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Hah, what? A stock S54 puts out ~7XX whp on 11.5:1 compression, you kidding me?

    The reason for a head spacer is to drop compression. With the compression dropped, the M5X/S5X series goes way, way beyond.

    It honestly isn't even a comparison. Didn't ICS hit close to 1200 whp recently with an M52? What are you talking about not lasting long?

    And if you are building for over 1000 whp all of these motors need to be opened the difference being the iron blocks with more material to work with are going to be stronger. The N54 is basically at half of what they are, slow your roll.
    I'm talking M50 based motors. And no, they don't go beyond that with just a head spacer aside from a glory run here or there. ICS car is built motor. In my previous post I mentioned unopened motors, and head spacers.

    Doesn't the N54 have Iron sleeves? I think I remember reading it, but don't know if it's true or not.

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    You are comparing an ancient engine to a current modern masterpiece, world's best engine of the year several years in the row. Even Toyota figured it was not competitive and axed it in favor of Prius.

    2JZ was fine at its time, but there are many good reasons it hasn't been in the production for over a decade. Motorola 68000 being the funniest LOL

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
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    I'm talking M50 based motors.
    The S54 is an M50 design and part of that engine family.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
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    And no, they don't go beyond that with just a head spacer aside from a glory run here or there. ICS car is built motor.
    It sure is built motor and thanks to the stout design and block with upgraded internals you can hit those numbers. The 2JZ doesn't go to 1000+ on stock internals either. But both go further than the N54.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
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    In my previous post I mentioned unopened motors, and head spacers.
    You wrote 600 is the stock limit for s/m5x so are mistaken as even the high compression motors have gone into the 700's and if that's weak on stock internals for a motor not even designed for forced induction I'm not sure what do tell you.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
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    Doesn't the N54 have Iron sleeves? I think I remember reading it, but don't know if it's true or not.
    It probably has factory sleeves just like the S65. It really isn't the same as having a solid piece iron block.

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
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    You are comparing an ancient engine to a current modern masterpiece, world's best engine of the year several years in the row
    I hope you're referring to the S54 as the modern masterpiece.

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    This thread is booming with activity, to bad it's not even related to "Top Mount Turbo in the works". Any News on the tuning CB?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by NJrep335i Click here to enlarge
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    This thread is booming with activity, to bad it's not even related to "Top Mount Turbo in the works". Any News on the tuning CB?
    Fair point, but we like to get in car discussions. No update has been posted so in the meantime how about we talk about cars?

    When the update comes, all that will happen is more people will look in the thread and more discussion will be generated.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    The S54 is an M50 design and part of that engine family.



    It sure is built motor and thanks to the stout design and block with upgraded internals you can hit those numbers. The 2JZ doesn't go to 1000+ on stock internals either. But both go further than the N54.



    You wrote 600 is the stock limit for s/m5x so are mistaken as even the high compression motors have gone into the 700's and if that's weak on stock internals for a motor not even designed for forced induction I'm not sure what do tell you.



    It probably has factory sleeves just like the S65. It really isn't the same as having a solid piece iron block.
    The s54 is not m50 based. You can not put an s54 head on an m5x. It's a different engine family lol.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Hah, what? A stock S54 puts out ~7XX whp on 11.5:1 compression, you kidding me?

    The reason for a head spacer is to drop compression. With the compression dropped, the M5X/S5X series goes way, way beyond.

    It honestly isn't even a comparison. Didn't ICS hit close to 1200 whp recently with an M52? What are you talking about not lasting long?

    And if you are building for over 1000 whp all of these motors need to be opened the difference being the iron blocks with more material to work with are going to be stronger. The N54 is basically at half of what they are, slow your roll.
    I doubt he was referring to the S54, he was referring to the M50/52 engine family (including the S50US/S52US), which is colloquially referred to as the M/S5x, the M/S signifying the difference between them and the S54+S50B30/B32, which shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as those engines. If he was referring to the S54, then yes, he is quite incorrect...but I doubt that's the case. And in referring to that family of engines, he isn't wrong...getting what we would consider reliable power out of that family of engines without touching internals (and I'm not even counting the studs/orings/LC gaskets required to even get there as doing internals, without them, the number is significantly lower) is limited to around the 550-600whp mark. The stock rods really can't hang above that level, doesn't really matter how much lower your compression is. Frankly, I'd say the number is 550 if you want the car to actually be reliable, because frankly, getting a few dyno pulls in and a couple of street kills before it blowing is not what I would call reliable. Doing internals obviously changes that number, but that completely changes the comparison. And as for ICS's 1200whp M/S5x, ask the guys who built it...they built it for a purpose, and by their own admission, it isn't built for anything other than that purpose, and isn't what we would call reliable.

    And to that argument, are there stock internal+HG/studs S54s making 700ish WHP and actually lasting(IE for more than a couple of glory dyno pulls, a few runs on the street, then the inevitable e-silence after a kaboom)? I don't follow S54 progress very closely, so maybe this is now the case and I'm simply behind the times, but I doubt the guys going for the HPF Stage 2.5s are picking up that significant extra bill (built motor) for their good health. 2.5s make 555ish on pump according to HPF, and 671 on 110+meth, and at those levels, I'm sure they last. The S54 is a great platform for boost, let's not make any mistake about it. But in the same way that others around here lately are claiming that there are 2JZs making 800rwhp on PUMP gas (lol i'd love to see that happen Click here to enlarge), let's not allow point proving to get in the way of facts. And the fact is that nobody (that we know of, heh heh) has blown up an N54 in the pursuit of big power yet (with that failure being caused by reaching the limits of stock components, not by poor tuning). Maybe the N54's safe number is 600whp. Maybe it's lower. Maybe it's higher. Truth is, we can speculate all we want, but the truth is that we don't know.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
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    i see 4 key differences;

    open vs closed deck
    PI vs DI
    ECU's
    Iron vs Aluminum block

    That is enough to make sure the n54 never touches the 2jz...

    2 of those can be somehwat fixed but it will be difficult... if i had unlimited resources and time...

    Motec or Aem standalone ecu along with secondary port fueling system fully controlled by standalone mixed w factory ecu for DI and everything else needed to make the car run. Then I would build the motor with a slightly different compression ratio... Until both of those are done... good luck to those trying because it will be very hard.
    Yup, the open deck blows. There are two potential ways of dealing with it though...the m54 block is aluminum, closed deck, and single piece (no separate bedplate to worry about). I am sure it would need some work to make it happen, but a sleeved M54 block takes care of the open deck headache, but still leaves the aluminum block issue open. The Honda guys also had to deal with the open deck, and they fixed it...they use deck plates (and the AEBS style liners are basically a hybrid of those and iron liners), effectively making it closed deck. Sure, it's definitely a piece of engineering...but with this insert, you resolve the open deck, and you resolve the iron vs. aluminum block issue to a degree, since you're using enough iron to provide a significant increase in structural integrity. Pic of what i'm talking about: Click here to enlarge

    PI vs. DI- DI is a big reason why we've gotten to where we are now. Sure, the fueling problem is very real. But please believe, big issues like these have held back many of the revered platforms until people stepped up to the plate and engineered real solutions. The 2JZ-GTE wasn't a 1000+whp capable killer until after it went out of production in the US, and a while at that. It takes money, brains and time to get there. If guys like Tony Vargas actually deliver on upgraded HPFPs, these are the things we need to move the platform forward...and move it forward they will.

    ECU- You won't find guys running big power on the stock ECU in a 2JZ...like ever. Unlike them, we have an ECU that's actually capable of running everything, the question is whether or not people will want to bother reverse engineering after reaching a certain point when one can wire in a ProEFI. Once you really reach that point, it's easier to pick up the ProEFI.

    The N54 is no 2JZ. It does have benefits over the 2JZ, but it has some serious detractors, ones that guys haven't even gotten to thinking about yet. Frankly, the thing I'd look at even harder than things like the aluminum block are the crankshaft harmonics...this engine really can't be spun above 7500rpm in stock form. And with the power people are talking about, an inability to turn revs becomes a serious damper on things, pun slightly intended lol...which is where engines like the S54, RB26 (and yes, the 2JZ, albeit to a lesser extent than those two) have a big advantage.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DefactoM6 Click here to enlarge
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    I doubt he was referring to the S54, he was referring to the M50/52 engine family (including the S50US/S52US), which is colloquially referred to as the M/S5x, the M/S signifying the difference between them and the S54+S50B30/B32, which shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as those engines. If he was referring to the S54, then yes, he is quite incorrect...but I doubt that's the case. And in referring to that family of engines, he isn't wrong...getting what we would consider reliable power out of that family of engines without touching internals (and I'm not even counting the studs/orings/LC gaskets required to even get there as doing internals, without them, the number is significantly lower) is limited to around the 550-600whp mark. The stock rods really can't hang above that level, doesn't really matter how much lower your compression is. Frankly, I'd say the number is 550 if you want the car to actually be reliable, because frankly, getting a few dyno pulls in and a couple of street kills before it blowing is not what I would call reliable. Doing internals obviously changes that number, but that completely changes the comparison. And as for ICS's 1200whp M/S5x, ask the guys who built it...they built it for a purpose, and by their own admission, it isn't built for anything other than that purpose, and isn't what we would call reliable.

    And to that argument, are there stock internal+HG/studs S54s making 700ish WHP and actually lasting(IE for more than a couple of glory dyno pulls, a few runs on the street, then the inevitable e-silence after a kaboom)? I don't follow S54 progress very closely, so maybe this is now the case and I'm simply behind the times, but I doubt the guys going for the HPF Stage 2.5s are picking up that significant extra bill (built motor) for their good health. 2.5s make 555ish on pump according to HPF, and 671 on 110+meth, and at those levels, I'm sure they last. The S54 is a great platform for boost, let's not make any mistake about it. But in the same way that others around here lately are claiming that there are 2JZs making 800rwhp on PUMP gas (lol i'd love to see that happen Click here to enlarge), let's not allow point proving to get in the way of facts. And the fact is that nobody (that we know of, heh heh) has blown up an N54 in the pursuit of big power yet (with that failure being caused by reaching the limits of stock components, not by poor tuning). Maybe the N54's safe number is 600whp. Maybe it's lower. Maybe it's higher. Truth is, we can speculate all we want, but the truth is that we don't know.



    Yup, the open deck blows. There are two potential ways of dealing with it though...the m54 block is aluminum, closed deck, and single piece (no separate bedplate to worry about). I am sure it would need some work to make it happen, but a sleeved M54 block takes care of the open deck headache, but still leaves the aluminum block issue open. The Honda guys also had to deal with the open deck, and they fixed it...they use deck plates (and the AEBS style liners are basically a hybrid of those and iron liners), effectively making it closed deck. Sure, it's definitely a piece of engineering...but with this insert, you resolve the open deck, and you resolve the iron vs. aluminum block issue to a degree, since you're using enough iron to provide a significant increase in structural integrity. Pic of what i'm talking about: http://blueridgemotorsports.com/imag...ine%20B18C.jpg

    PI vs. DI- DI is a big reason why we've gotten to where we are now. Sure, the fueling problem is very real. But please believe, big issues like these have held back many of the revered platforms until people stepped up to the plate and engineered real solutions. The 2JZ-GTE wasn't a 1000+whp capable killer until after it went out of production in the US, and a while at that. It takes money, brains and time to get there. If guys like Tony Vargas actually deliver on upgraded HPFPs, these are the things we need to move the platform forward...and move it forward they will.

    ECU- You won't find guys running big power on the stock ECU in a 2JZ...like ever. Unlike them, we have an ECU that's actually capable of running everything, the question is whether or not people will want to bother reverse engineering after reaching a certain point when one can wire in a ProEFI. Once you really reach that point, it's easier to pick up the ProEFI.

    The N54 is no 2JZ. It does have benefits over the 2JZ, but it has some serious detractors, ones that guys haven't even gotten to thinking about yet. Frankly, the thing I'd look at even harder than things like the aluminum block are the crankshaft harmonics...this engine really can't be spun above 7500rpm in stock form. And with the power people are talking about, an inability to turn revs becomes a serious damper on things, pun slightly intended lol...which is where engines like the S54, RB26 (and yes, the 2JZ, albeit to a lesser extent than those two) have a big advantage.
    repped

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DefactoM6 Click here to enlarge
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    I doubt he was referring to the S54, he was referring to the M50/52 engine family (including the S50US/S52US), which is colloquially referred to as the M/S5x, the M/S signifying the difference between them and the S54+S50B30/B32, which shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as those engines. If he was referring to the S54, then yes, he is quite incorrect...but I doubt that's the case. And in referring to that family of engines, he isn't wrong...getting what we would consider reliable power out of that family of engines without touching internals (and I'm not even counting the studs/orings/LC gaskets required to even get there as doing internals, without them, the number is significantly lower) is limited to around the 550-600whp mark. The stock rods really can't hang above that level, doesn't really matter how much lower your compression is. Frankly, I'd say the number is 550 if you want the car to actually be reliable, because frankly, getting a few dyno pulls in and a couple of street kills before it blowing is not what I would call reliable. Doing internals obviously changes that number, but that completely changes the comparison. And as for ICS's 1200whp M/S5x, ask the guys who built it...they built it for a purpose, and by their own admission, it isn't built for anything other than that purpose, and isn't what we would call reliable.

    And to that argument, are there stock internal+HG/studs S54s making 700ish WHP and actually lasting(IE for more than a couple of glory dyno pulls, a few runs on the street, then the inevitable e-silence after a kaboom)? I don't follow S54 progress very closely, so maybe this is now the case and I'm simply behind the times, but I doubt the guys going for the HPF Stage 2.5s are picking up that significant extra bill (built motor) for their good health. 2.5s make 555ish on pump according to HPF, and 671 on 110+meth, and at those levels, I'm sure they last. The S54 is a great platform for boost, let's not make any mistake about it. But in the same way that others around here lately are claiming that there are 2JZs making 800rwhp on PUMP gas (lol i'd love to see that happen Click here to enlarge), let's not allow point proving to get in the way of facts. And the fact is that nobody (that we know of, heh heh) has blown up an N54 in the pursuit of big power yet (with that failure being caused by reaching the limits of stock components, not by poor tuning). Maybe the N54's safe number is 600whp. Maybe it's lower. Maybe it's higher. Truth is, we can speculate all we want, but the truth is that we don't know.



    Yup, the open deck blows. There are two potential ways of dealing with it though...the m54 block is aluminum, closed deck, and single piece (no separate bedplate to worry about). I am sure it would need some work to make it happen, but a sleeved M54 block takes care of the open deck headache, but still leaves the aluminum block issue open. The Honda guys also had to deal with the open deck, and they fixed it...they use deck plates (and the AEBS style liners are basically a hybrid of those and iron liners), effectively making it closed deck. Sure, it's definitely a piece of engineering...but with this insert, you resolve the open deck, and you resolve the iron vs. aluminum block issue to a degree, since you're using enough iron to provide a significant increase in structural integrity. Pic of what i'm talking about: http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...ne20B18C-1.jpg

    PI vs. DI- DI is a big reason why we've gotten to where we are now. Sure, the fueling problem is very real. But please believe, big issues like these have held back many of the revered platforms until people stepped up to the plate and engineered real solutions. The 2JZ-GTE wasn't a 1000+whp capable killer until after it went out of production in the US, and a while at that. It takes money, brains and time to get there. If guys like Tony Vargas actually deliver on upgraded HPFPs, these are the things we need to move the platform forward...and move it forward they will.

    ECU- You won't find guys running big power on the stock ECU in a 2JZ...like ever. Unlike them, we have an ECU that's actually capable of running everything, the question is whether or not people will want to bother reverse engineering after reaching a certain point when one can wire in a ProEFI. Once you really reach that point, it's easier to pick up the ProEFI.

    The N54 is no 2JZ. It does have benefits over the 2JZ, but it has some serious detractors, ones that guys haven't even gotten to thinking about yet. Frankly, the thing I'd look at even harder than things like the aluminum block are the crankshaft harmonics...this engine really can't be spun above 7500rpm in stock form. And with the power people are talking about, an inability to turn revs becomes a serious damper on things, pun slightly intended lol...which is where engines like the S54, RB26 (and yes, the 2JZ, albeit to a lesser extent than those two) have a big advantage.
    yes, yes


    Very good! I questions the fueling aspect more than anything though... DI is tricky... very tricky. EVO, STI, Supra, GTR and so forth are PI and simple to work on. The DI platforms had it much harder when it came to upgrade the pumps and it was a common effort between the VW and Mazda crew until they got something figured out. They also had a much lower level limitation before that; hence motivating the need to upgrade. I guarantee that if this gets figured out; it will be a major step forward... one that will catapult this platform.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
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    The s54 is not m50 based. You can not put an s54 head on an m5x. It's a different engine family lol.
    LOL Mhmmm... M50/M52/M54 are all the part of the same engine family. There are differences obviously in bore and stroke and head design but that comes with an S54 versus S52, etc.

    S54

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    BMW S54 engine

    The S54 is the high performance version of the M54 and was used in the E46 M3, Z3 M Coupé / Roadster, and the E85 Z4 M Roadster / E86 M Coupe.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DefactoM6 Click here to enlarge
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    I doubt he was referring to the S54, he was referring to the M50/52 engine family (including the S50US/S52US), which is colloquially referred to as the M/S5x, the M/S signifying the difference between them and the S54+S50B30/B32, which shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as those engines. If he was referring to the S54, then yes, he is quite incorrect...but I doubt that's the case. And in referring to that family of engines, he isn't wrong...getting what we would consider reliable power out of that family of engines without touching internals (and I'm not even counting the studs/orings/LC gaskets required to even get there as doing internals, without them, the number is significantly lower) is limited to around the 550-600whp mark. The stock rods really can't hang above that level, doesn't really matter how much lower your compression is. Frankly, I'd say the number is 550 if you want the car to actually be reliable, because frankly, getting a few dyno pulls in and a couple of street kills before it blowing is not what I would call reliable. Doing internals obviously changes that number, but that completely changes the comparison. And as for ICS's 1200whp M/S5x, ask the guys who built it...they built it for a purpose, and by their own admission, it isn't built for anything other than that purpose, and isn't what we would call reliable.
    A 1200 whp motor was built for a purpose? You don't say. Can you, say, take an N54 and build it to be the fastest BMW in the mile in the USA? Nah, you can't, but you can do it with any of the iron block inline-6's, I wonder why?

    M50/M52/S50/S52/S54/ go for it. And these are all part of similar basic design with the S54 being considering the final evolution of the M50 inline-6 engine line, where have you been?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DefactoM6 Click here to enlarge
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    And to that argument, are there stock internal+HG/studs S54s making 700ish WHP and actually lasting(IE for more than a couple of glory dyno pulls, a few runs on the street, then the inevitable e-silence after a kaboom)? I don't follow S54 progress very closely, so maybe this is now the case and I'm simply behind the times, but I doubt the guys going for the HPF Stage 2.5s are picking up that significant extra bill (built motor) for their good health.
    Yes, there is a guy here who specifically decided to keep the high compression for better response. It's no secret the S54 internals and block are of higher quality, no comparison really.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DefactoM6 Click here to enlarge
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    Yup, the open deck blows. There are two potential ways of dealing with it though...the m54 block is aluminum, closed deck, and single piece (no separate bedplate to worry about).
    The M54 is the weakest out of all those past inline-6's mentioned. Partially due to the block. M50 is iron, S50, S52, S54, M52.

    The North American M52 is actually strongest because it retained the same M50 iron block. Seriously, do I need to give you people a history lesson every single time?

    Yes, the open deck blows.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DefactoM6 Click here to enlarge
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    PI vs. DI- DI is a big reason why we've gotten to where we are now. Sure, the fueling problem is very real. But please believe, big issues like these have held back many of the revered platforms until people stepped up to the plate and engineered real solutions. The 2JZ-GTE wasn't a 1000+whp capable killer until after it went out of production in the US, and a while at that. It takes money, brains and time to get there. If guys like Tony Vargas actually deliver on upgraded HPFPs, these are the things we need to move the platform forward...and move it forward they will.
    The 2JZ-GTE was easier to get to 1000+ and would get there much faster today. Tuning was not as evolved back then as it is now. It should technically be easier and faster now with better turbos, better fueling, more fuels, better ECU's, etc. The fact is the 2JZ is a better design for pure potential than the N54. They aren't similar, they aren't the same thing, they never will be.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DefactoM6 Click here to enlarge
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    ECU- You won't find guys running big power on the stock ECU in a 2JZ...like ever.
    And you can get an aftermarket ECU that is plug and play for cheap whereas on the N54 how many do you have handling direct injection that are plug and play? Go ahead, list them. Another area the 2JZ wins.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DefactoM6 Click here to enlarge
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    The N54 is no 2JZ. It does have benefits over the 2JZ, but it has some serious detractors
    Exactly my point. N54 does not equal 2JZ I want to stop hearing it already, enough. It's absurd. It has no benefits over the 2JZ and serious weaknesses. The more complicated fuel system which does not offer as much room to grow, the open deck block, the weaker internals, and the more complicated tuning necessary.

    Just because BMW built a turbo-6 that can be tuned doesn't make it equal to some of the best aftermarket powerplants in the world. Just accept the N54 for being an N54 and stop trying to act like it is as capable as something else or that it is something it is not. ACCEPT IT FOR WHAT IT IS.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    A 1200 whp motor was built for a purpose? You don't say. Can you, say, take an N54 and build it to be the fastest BMW in the mile in the USA? Nah, you can't, but you can do it with any of the iron block inline-6's, I wonder why?

    M50/M52/S50/S52/S54/ go for it. And these are all part of similar basic design with the S54 being considering the final evolution of the M50 inline-6 engine line, where have you been?



    Yes, there is a guy here who specifically decided to keep the high compression for better response. It's no secret the S54 internals and block are of higher quality, no comparison really.



    The M54 is the weakest out of all those past inline-6's mentioned. Partially due to the block. M50 is iron, S50, S52, S54, M52.

    The North American M52 is actually strongest because it retained the same M50 iron block. Seriously, do I need to give you people a history lesson every single time?

    Yes, the open deck blows.



    The 2JZ-GTE was easier to get to 1000+ and would get there much faster today. Tuning was not as evolved back then as it is now. It should technically be easier and faster now with better turbos, better fueling, more fuels, better ECU's, etc. The fact is the 2JZ is a better design for pure potential than the N54. They aren't similar, they aren't the same thing, they never will be.



    And you can get an aftermarket ECU that is plug and play for cheap whereas on the N54 how many do you have handling direct injection that are plug and play? Go ahead, list them. Another area the 2JZ wins.



    Exactly my point. N54 does not equal 2JZ I want to stop hearing it already, enough. It's absurd. It has no benefits over the 2JZ and serious weaknesses. The more complicated fuel system which does not offer as much room to grow, the open deck block, the weaker internals, and the more complicated tuning necessary.

    Just because BMW built a turbo-6 that can be tuned doesn't make it equal to some of the best aftermarket powerplants in the world. Just accept the N54 for being an N54 and stop trying to act like it is as capable as something else or that it is something it is not. ACCEPT IT FOR WHAT IT IS.
    Wait.. so you are saying the N54 is not the new euro 2JZ?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
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    Wait.. so you are saying the N54 is not the new euro 2JZ?
    I'm throwing my laptop out my window.

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    What's a 2JZ?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    LOL Mhmmm... M50/M52/M54 are all the part of the same engine family. There are differences obviously in bore and stroke and head design but that comes with an S54 versus S52, etc.

    S54


    The S54 is the high performance version of the M54 and was used in the E46 M3, Z3 M Coupé / Roadster, and the E85 Z4 M Roadster / E86 M Coupe.
    I can understand you relating the m54 because it is literally almost exactly the same except aluminum block. S54 is not the same block design. If it was you would see people interchanging parts. You can't. Yet you see "frankenstein" builds made up of m52's and s50's, but no s54 parts hmmmmmm. Maybe your confused and thinking of the euro s50? That's the only thing I can relate to an s54.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I can understand you relating the m54 because it is literally almost exactly the same except aluminum block. S54 is not the same block design. If it was you would see people interchanging parts. You can't. Yet you see "frankenstein" builds made up of m52's and s50's, but no s54 parts hmmmmmm. Maybe your confused and thinking of the euro s50? That's the only thing I can relate to an s54.
    The S54 is not the same block design as the M54, yep.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
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    If it was you would see people interchanging parts. You can't.
    To be honest with you, the M54 guys have criticized me for not grouping the M54 in with the S52/M52 due to how many parts are similar. You're welcome to take this discussion up with the resident M54 experts if you don't believe me?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    The S54 is not the same block design as the M54, yep.



    To be honest with you, the M54 guys have criticized me for not grouping the M54 in with the S52/M52 due to how many parts are similar. You're welcome to take this discussion up with the resident M54 experts if you don't believe me?
    I think you are reading over my posts too fast because you seem to be saying what I just said, but making sound like I said the opposite.

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    There is one member who REALLY doesn't like the N54. Can you spot him?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think you are reading over my posts too fast because you seem to be saying what I just said, but making sound like I said the opposite.
    That's some serious skill.

    No, you seem to think the S54 is a completely different engine design not related to any of the others. The S54 is the final motor in the M50 engine line.

    Also, the M54 does have many similarities to the other motors in the engine family. These are the areas of disagreement.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
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    There is one member who REALLY doesn't like the N54. Can you spot him?

    Click here to enlarge
    I'm realistic about the motor. Not EURO 2JZ OMGBBQ AWESOME.

    But whatever, we can discuss single turbos now.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Wait.. so you are saying the N54 is not the new euro 2JZ?
    All I got from it is that 2jz>s65...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RnmEvo9 Click here to enlarge
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    All I got from it is that 2jz>s65...
    lol... this thread is just becoming a troll on sticky. i'd like to see more info but this is equally as entertaining Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's some serious skill.

    No, you seem to think the S54 is a completely different engine design not related to any of the others. The S54 is the final motor in the M50 engine line.

    Also, the M54 does have many similarities to the other motors in the engine family. These are the areas of disagreement.
    In my previous post I said that I agree the agree the m54 is almost exactly the same except aluminum and some other odds and ends obviously. But extremely similar. Don't know where the disagreement is with that.

    The s54 is different enough to not interchange parts. I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The relationship is basically on paper. Nothing else unless you start counting the number of cylinders and valves.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    In my previous post I said that I agree the agree the m54 is almost exactly the same except aluminum and some other odds and ends obviously. But extremely similar. Don't know where the disagreement is with that.
    With you saying the M54 relation to the M52, S52, M50, S50, and M52TU does not seem to exist.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The s54 is different enough to not interchange parts. I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The relationship is basically on paper. Nothing else unless you start counting the number of cylinders and valves.
    The S54 is much different due to being a higher revving M motor but these are all in the same BMW engine family. The S50 and M50 as well.

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