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Thread: The N54 is not a German 2JZGTE and general BMW M50 engine line lessons to a moron

              
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    The N54 is not a German 2JZGTE and general BMW M50 engine line lessons to a moron

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    It's cause the uneducated fanbase thinks N54 = modern/euro 2JZ.
    I couldn't agree more:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    The N54 is about to become the Euro 2JZ
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/printthre...9&pp=25&page=1

    I think you might want to sit this one out. Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
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    I couldn't agree more
    "About" was the key word in the quote. Realize that post was made in the ProEFI thread, which is where it'd be appropriate since a standalone is what this platform needs to achieve 2JZ-like performance. Tuning a single turbo on the OEM DME (like the Vishnu/FFTEC) that's going to work flawlessly just isn't realistic. Even if Terry can tune Eleventeen's & CB Performance's top mount N54s, the OEM DME is going to be the limiting factor & not fully exposing the performance that the "kit" might be capable of.
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    I think you're a squeaky wheel that could ask more questions rather than make broad assertions (as should we all).

    I don't believe we know the limit of the stock ECU. Lets distinguish between facts and hypotheses.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
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    I don't believe we know the limit of the stock ECU. Lets distinguish between facts and hypotheses.
    Well until someone cracks the DME we won't know (which is the biggest problem). That's why going to a standalone will not only be easier, but make single turbo conversion/big twins that don't have vacuum controlled WGs feasible.
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    My point is that e.g. the rods that we custom make are equally strong independent of which engine they ended in. The same applies to all of the parts. But you got my point and I got yours.

    Btw. How about fabbing just a block and keeping all the stock internals? Click here to enlarge Would it be considered N54?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
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    Btw. How about fabbing just a block and keeping all the stock internals? Click here to enlarge Would it be considered N54?
    lol, if it somehow turns out that the block is the weak element & the internals are suitable for aggressive tuning, then why not?!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    The N54 could be converted to PI easily with a new manifold & iron sleeves could offer some reinforcement, but it's all speculation until we get to that point.
    The 2JZ is a completely different ballgame and anyone equating the N54 to it because it happens to be a turbocharged inline-6 is an idiot.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
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    His comment was just saying, the 2JZ is an iron block PI, the N54 is a aluminum block DI platform. Converting it to PI and dropping the compression will make it handle much more boost easily, true, but then we get the slow spooling characteristics of the engines like the 2JZ, exactly what we are happy to not have to deal with having a high compression, boost friendly DI platform. Ditching DI is not the way to go
    I'm not advocating ditching DI I'm advocating the 2JZ being a completely different motor that offers no application to the N54 tuning issues.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    It could be eventually, but why the hell would you want it to be? Making huge HP/liter is like a dick measuring contest. Sure you have 1000hp, but you can never put it down and it only happens for 2000rpm at some revs you basically never turn. I rather have a 650hp car with good response than an 800hp car that's peaky as hell. Why? Because the 650hp car is faster in real life and the majority of racing situations (unless 100mph roll races are the new thing).
    It will never be a 2JZ. Period.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
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    N54 is not 2JZ. Yes, similar in power, but the old engine loses and shows its age in spool, efficiency and technology.
    For straight power potential it is superior and always will be. ALWAYS.

    There isn't much technology can do about the physical properties of open deck aluminum versus iron.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    I don't think that argument can be made until we're hitting 1,500 WHP.
    The argument can never be made.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
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    ????

    Sure DI has its advantages and the N54 is more modern but as was already said... this car hasn't reliably made 700 WHP yet much less double that. The car it sits in hasn't reliably ran 10's yet, the Supra hasn't reliably ran 6's yet lololol. Let's be serious here for a second.
    Embarrassing it took this many posts to get here.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
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    2JZ engine family was rated at 200-320bhp. Sure you can change all the parts in the engine, but it is not really 2JZ any more. In a 800whp engine there are no 2JZ internals in there.
    Since when is changing internals the same thing as it no longer being the same motor?

    Ya, the 2JZ was rated at 320 so? You could pull a hose and get it to 400. And?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    While it might not share 96% of the parts it came with from the factory, it would've never been possible to take it into the 1,000+ WHP range without the original, unaltered OEM motor that was incredibly responsive to basic bolt-ons & tune changes.
    Sounds logical to me...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    For straight power potential it is superior and always will be. ALWAYS.

    There isn't much technology can do about the physical properties of open deck aluminum versus iron.
    The deck can be closed, actually....
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
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    The deck can be closed, actually....
    Still doesn't matter.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Still doesn't matter.
    As far as the validity of the equation 2jz!=n54 sure.

    If we're talking about overcoming power limit barriers in these engines it does make a difference.
    You can close up the open deck design and get more power out of it. You can re-sleeve and get more power out of it.
    Lots of stuff that can be done to extract max HP with 'new technology.'

    New tech won't magically make it into this weird old japanese engine rather than a german one from the 2000's but it will help it hold more power.
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    Still trying to figure out this worry of open deck blocks. Technology has come a long way. I don't think its anything anybody should even be worrying about at this point. VQ35's have made 1000whp on stock sleeves and they are open deck. People consider those motors glass.

    Worry about the tuning. That's where the innovation needs to be happening now. I think if anybody really wanted a bad ass N54 NOW, the only way would be to go PI so you get wire up a standalone and tune it for real. I really hope Cobb makes factory tuned DME's compatible to o2's in one bank in the future.

    Authorized Dealer of: BMS, Evolution Racewerks, ETS, and more

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    The 2JZ is a completely different ballgame and anyone equating the N54 to it because it happens to be a turbocharged inline-6 is an idiot.

    You're going to have to explain that one to me slowly. As the person who wrote the 'NA-T Bible' and was the first person to hack the GTE ECU to run on a GE wiring harness back in the early days of 2JZ-GE turbocharging (my Supraforums and ClubNA-T handle is Bean); I've seen my fair share of 2JZ innards and peculiarities. There really is nothing special about the motor itself (if that's what you're implying), it just has a LOT of time in aftermarket development. The N54 head flows better stock for stock (the GE head flows better than the GTE head too) and the motor has about the same limitations on stock turbos despite the 2JZ's turbos being larger. Is it built from the factory? Most definitely, and moreso than the RB26 and VG30 were.

    Back in the early days before the AEM, you either ran alphabet soup (which was pretty unreliable) or you ran a Motec (though some Aussies ran a Haltech). The outer limits were always there because of electronics up until AEM released their PnP unit (which still didn't run as well as a JB4 G5 w/ BMS flash). I attempted to crack the GE/GTE ECU myself and didn't get much out of the research stage (it's an off-branded copy of a Motorola 68000 - I think by Toshiba IIRC). Electronics holding the platform back is a recurring theme; it is just expressed in a more high-tech way in this case. The AEM wasn't released until 2002 or 2003 IIRC, almost a full 10 years after the first Supra rolled off the showroom floor. The 2JZ back then was in a very similar situation to what the N54 is in now. People calling it a euro-2jz isn't far off the mark. While I don't think the N54 will ever have the kind of aftermarket the 2JZ has enjoyed (we'll see when we start seeing Chinese knock-off manifolds and downpipes), I do think this is just the beginning for this platform. And bear in mind, the N54 has more market as a performance engine than the 2JZ ever did (the 2JZ in 1993 was available in the GS/SC300 and the Supra; and added the IS300 in 1998 -- only one was a performance version, the Supra, and there were probably more E90 335i's sold in 2007 than the entirety of the MKIV Supra line in the USA)

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Since when is changing internals the same thing as it no longer being the same motor?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Ya, the 2JZ was rated at 320 so? You could pull a hose and get it to 400. And?
    Do you think that'd be possible if a new one was out? No. Pulling a hose and making that power was more of an indicator of the simplicity of the vacuum-acuated boost control system. You effectively do the same thing on an N54, but it's more complicated to do because the electronics were designed to STOP you from doing that.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    For straight power potential it is superior and always will be. ALWAYS.

    There isn't much technology can do about the physical properties of open deck aluminum versus iron.
    Sure there is, VQ people do it all the time. It's called resleeving. And VQ motors will run right with the 2JZ every day of the week when built properly
    Last edited by Sered; 02-04-2013 at 02:40 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
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    As far as the validity of the equation 2jz!=n54 sure.

    If we're talking about overcoming power limit barriers in these engines it does make a difference.
    You can close up the open deck design and get more power out of it. You can re-sleeve and get more power out of it.
    Lots of stuff that can be done to extract max HP with 'new technology.'

    New tech won't magically make it into this weird old japanese engine rather than a german one from the 2000's but it will help it hold more power.
    You can do whatever you want to address the factory weaknesses of the N54 it still ultimately is an open deck aluminum block that will never be solid iron. The aluminum won't turn into iron. It isn't a 2JZ and it's just getting absurd reaching this far.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
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    The N54 head flows better stock for stock
    I'm sorry you are going to have to back this up. The numbers we have seen posted for the N54 head does not support this.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
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    The 2JZ back then was in a very similar situation to what the N54 is in now. People calling it a euro-2jz isn't far off the mark.
    It's way far off the mark. The 2JZ has greater gains with bolt ons in stock form. BPU cars have done what? What is the stock turbo 2JZ record for example?

    The N54 isn't a damn 2JZ. For $#@!s sake stop entertaining this idiocy.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
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    And bear in mind, the N54 has more market as a performance engine than the 2JZ ever did
    2JZGTE is obviously the motor we are discussing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
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    Do you think that'd be possible if a new one was out? No.
    How do you know? Fact is you sneeze on the 2JZ and made big power whereas on the N54 you just go into limp mode or get a fuel pump failure.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
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    Pulling a hose and making that power was more of an indicator of the simplicity of the vacuum-acuated boost control system.
    EXACTLY. And a less complex fuel system, ecu, and valvetrain. So right here we already have huge architecture differences. The N54 does not equal 2JZGTE, all you did was just support this.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
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    Sure there is, VQ people do it all the time. It's called resleeving. And VQ motors will run right with the 2JZ every day of the week when built properly
    You can sleeve an iron block as well. And what happens? The tensile strength of the physical property is always higher. A 2JZGTE race block is on a whole different level. The N54 block isn't even worth trying to get to the point of the top 2JZGTE cars and it likely won't be able to as if sleeves are magic.

    Go ahead, sleeve your motor and get it to be as strong as this block:

    Click here to enlarge

    You won't. All you are doing is hiding the weakness of the N54 block and it won't match the iron blocks, period. The N54 isn't even a 1/3 of the damn way there, wake up people.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BoostAddict Click here to enlarge
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    Still trying to figure out this worry of open deck blocks. Technology has come a long way.
    Not long enough to overwrite the weakness of aluminum versus iron. Sorry.

    The N54 block clearly looks like a budget block. I've never seen such a weak BMW bock from the factory personally. The M50/M52 is superior and that was made when?

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    Is your car running yet? Will it be ready for the next Shift S3ctor?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Not long enough to overwrite the weakness of aluminum versus iron. Sorry.

    The N54 block clearly looks like a budget block. I've never seen such a weak BMW bock from the factory personally. The M50/M52 is superior and that was made when?
    I can agree with most of what you are saying, an N54 safely seeing 1500hp... doesn't sound too likely.. but then again, the 2jz's that do also don't last very long without great care..

    I'd still believe the N54 can support power that is well beyond reasonable for day to day street use... we'll see in good time, shouldn't be too many years before we see a destroyed block and we really know what's what lol.

    also, 2jz on stock turbos, the wheels don't last long much over the 400whp mark, so stock to stock + boltons, they're pretty similar in output.. and if you go much higher, you still need bigger injectors, boost controller, and maybe even a bigger fuel pump. they're good, but not magical.

    ED: and worth noting on the 'alu block being too weak' conversation... H22a, 2.2 4cyl honda motor... they've been seen to make 675-700+whp with cast iron sleeves, the highest ever seen out of one is something like 1000whp (i'm having trouble confirming though)

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