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Thread: F80 M3 Engine unofficially based on N54

              
  1. #126
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    But look at all the 2,000 HP Supras, Dodge Vipers, Porsche Turbos & GTRs that are all using air/air intercooling. Body layout is a big factor that plays into high HP cars like the the Ford GT & Lambo Gallardo that are forced into going air/water (air/air on those mid-engine cars would a nightmare between IC placement & piping).

    Air/Air vs. Air/Water can be debated endlessly, but it depends on your application. Air/air is going to be significantly more effective on a road car where there's consistently passive airflow going through the FMIC, which would be a more appropriate application on the M3. If you're just building a car to go as fast & quick as possible over a 1/4 mile or full mile, the air/water is going to make the most sense (especially when you can add ice chest & special fluids that'll really assist in the IAT cooling)

    Those cars that are using air/air intercoolers are doing so for packaging constraints, all of those high hp cars are generally dragsters. There are flow constraints when it comes to intercoolers, and an air/water system can get REALLY big when it's designed for higher airflow the likes of what 2000hp entails. The air/air can be mounted out in front of the car easily; I also seem to recall some of the high power cars run straight methanol and don't even run an intercooler.

    Either way, air/water > air/air; it's simple physics. You can make arguments about what happens when a car sits on the street and builds up heatsoak; but the air/air will suffer from that as well. Air/water with a proper water cooler element/heat exchanger strapped to the front of the car like a FMIC will cool far better than an air/air because water is a better medium for absorbing heat. Simple physics.
    Last edited by Sered; 01-28-2013 at 12:45 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    It didn't lose all credibility but it lose a bit of that M magic and got a hell of a lot heavier. Also lost it's weight balance.
    +1..I test drove the new M5..sure its pretty, and faster (I think, still not convinced) than the E60 M5, but the E60 is so much more fun to drive

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
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    Those cars that are using air/air intercoolers are doing so for packaging constraints, all of those high hp cars are generally dragsters. There are flow constraints when it comes to intercoolers, and an air/water system can get REALLY big when it's designed for higher airflow the likes of what 2000hp entails. The air/air can be mounted out in front of the car easily; I also seem to recall some of the high power cars run straight methanol and don't even run an intercooler.

    Either way, air/water > air/air; it's simple physics. You can make arguments about what happens when a car sits on the street and builds up heatsoak; but the air/air will suffer from that as well. Air/water with a proper water cooler element/heat exchanger strapped to the front of the car like a FMIC will cool far better than an air/air because water is a better medium for absorbing heat. Simple physics.

    YOU WILL NEED TO SITE MORE than that to be a fair argument. hot water will not dissapate heat fast enough. is air/water cooler for a short burst, yes, but over extended time, air/air will keeep it cooler consistantly. air/water will cool it, but at a higher heat level because once again, water/mix is not dissapating heat fast enough

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
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    Those cars that are using air/air intercoolers are doing so for packaging constraints, all of those high hp cars are generally dragsters. There are flow constraints when it comes to intercoolers, and an air/water system can get REALLY big when it's designed for higher airflow the likes of what 2000hp entails. The air/air can be mounted out in front of the car easily; I also seem to recall some of the high power cars run straight methanol and don't even run an intercooler.

    Either way, air/water > air/air; it's simple physics. You can make arguments about what happens when a car sits on the street and builds up heatsoak; but the air/air will suffer from that as well. Air/water with a proper water cooler element/heat exchanger strapped to the front of the car like a FMIC will cool far better than an air/air because water is a better medium for absorbing heat. Simple physics.
    Its simple physics I agree, but you are only looking at one part of the equation and not looking at the total system. Sure, obviously water has a higher specific heat than air, everyone knows that. What you are failing to understand is that its not air/water vs air/air, its air/water water/air versus air/air. Think on that for a while. Air/air will always have a lower cold point, air/water will always have a higher resistance to short bursts, air/air and air/water can have similar hear dissipation capacities. The benefit to air/water is packaging and boost response. Clearly BMW went this route for boost response over anything else. They did not do it because air/water gets colder than air/air - because it doesn't.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    Its simple physics I agree, but you are only looking at one part of the equation and not looking at the total system. Sure, obviously water has a higher specific heat than air, everyone knows that. What you are failing to understand is that its not air/water vs air/air, its air/water water/air versus air/air. Think on that for a while. Air/air will always have a lower cold point, air/water will always have a higher resistance to short bursts, air/air and air/water can have similar hear dissipation capacities. The benefit to air/water is packaging and boost response. Clearly BMW went this route for boost response over anything else. They did not do it because air/water gets colder than air/air - because it doesn't.
    That's true, but I didn't say it got colder; it brings down the temperature faster because it has higher conductivity: simply that it exchanges heat (going hotter or colder) far better than air. Whether its doing the cooling or its being cooled, it is still better than straight air. There is also some wicked phase-change stuff that can be implemented to make it bring temps well-below ambient, but it's more complicated. It'd be impressive if BMW was able to do this.

    Also, how does air/air have a lower cold point? Ambient air is cooling the charge regardless, physics says its impossible that air can release that heat better than water can.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
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    That's true, but I didn't say it got colder; it brings down the temperature faster because it has higher conductivity: simply that it exchanges heat (going hotter or colder) far better than air. Whether its doing the cooling or its being cooled, it is still better than straight air. There is also some wicked phase-change stuff that can be implemented to make it bring temps well-below ambient, but it's more complicated. It'd be impressive if BMW was able to do this.

    Also, how does air/air have a lower cold point? Ambient air is cooling the charge regardless, physics says its impossible that air can release that heat better than water can.

    http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...tercooler.html

    Air to Air Vs Water to Air Intercoolers

    A Pro and Con Comparison showing which could be better for your car

    Article By: Enginebasics.comOne of the biggest arguments when it comes to intercoolers is which type of intercooler is better? In this article we will discuss what each type of intercooler is and the pro’s and cons of each.
    Air to Air Intercooler

    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    An air to air intercooler is an intercooler that uses air to cool air. Meaning the exchange of heat that occurs is between the air that you have charged in your charge pipes and the air that is flowing through the intercooler. Air to Air intercoolers are only as efficient as the ambient airflow (air temperature outside) that they see. Placement of these types of intercoolers is therefore very important in the efficiency of this type of intercooler.
    Pro’s

    1. Requires no power to work and therefore is easy to set up. 2. Requires no liquids to work and therefore no chances for leaks .3. Doesn’t suffer from heat-soak as long as the intercooler is seeing good airflow.
    Con’s

    1. Efficiency is only as good as the ambient air temperature. 2. Efficiency is only as good as the amount of airflow the intercooler see’s. 3. Cannot be mounted anywhere, since it must be mounted in a location to see airflow.
    Water to Air Intercooler

    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    A Water to Air Intercooler is one where the exchange of heat occurs between water and air. Water is pumped through the intercooler so that the heat from your charge pipes is transferred to the water. This type of set-up can be mounted anywhere, and just needs to have water plumbed to it. Because of its requirement for the flow of water, this type of intercooler requires a water pump, a reservoir, and a heat exchanger for the water mounted somewhere that will receive good airflow.
    Click here to enlarge
    Pro’s

    1. Really good efficiency, so the size of the intercooler can be smaller.2. Efficiency can be exaggerated by using ice, or other chemicals to produce normally un-realistic temperatures for short amounts of time. 3. Can be mounted anywhere along the charge piping route.
    Con’s

    1. Requires a lot of other accessories to work. 2. Because it is more complex, it naturally causes more opportunity for problems, like leaks. 3. Can become heat soaked when used for long periods of hard driving and become terribly in-efficient. If your interested in setting up a water to air intercooler, be sure to check out this aritle on How to set-up an efficient Water to Air Intercooler.
    Conclusion

    If you have the room, and can mount an air to air exchanger, it is the best option, unless you are drag racing, or only looking for short stints of power. While many have been able to make air to water exchangers work on the race-track in a way that won’t cause them to heat-soak, they have only been able to by adding TONS of water cooling and capacity, and therefore a lot of weight. In the end its all in the install and the ultimate goals and uses of the car.

  7. #132
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
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    That's true, but I didn't say it got colder; it brings down the temperature faster because it has higher conductivity: simply that it exchanges heat (going hotter or colder) far better than air. Whether its doing the cooling or its being cooled, it is still better than straight air. There is also some wicked phase-change stuff that can be implemented to make it bring temps well-below ambient, but it's more complicated. It'd be impressive if BMW was able to do this.

    Also, how does air/air have a lower cold point? Ambient air is cooling the charge regardless, physics says its impossible that air can release that heat better than water can.
    I thought I was pretty total in my explanation. Salient point, you have two cooling circuits instead of one. Assuming there is a temp rise between each circuit (there has to be) then you will have a higher cold point. The heat transfer relies on the flow of the medium as well, air is not as conductive, but in an air I air setup think about how much air is flowing by compared to water. It is not the specific conductivity you care about but the combination of that conductivity and flow volume.

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  9. #134
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    Based on N55 then.

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    Only 415 hp? I'm getting a e92 m3 and installing a AA blower...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
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    Only 415 hp? I'm getting a e92 m3 and installing a AA blower...
    It will have more than 415...

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    I still might get a e92 m, the f82 m4 won't be here till late 2014-early 2015 Click here to enlarge

    I can't wait that long
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  13. #138
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    The other forum posted the m3/m4 would have a s55 with 415 hpClick here to enlarge
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  14. #139
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    HAHA! 415 and 2+ year wait.. once this kids pops out im either going all out witht he current and greatest M3, or hopping in the latest and greatest domestic Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
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    HAHA! 415 and 2+ year wait.. once this kids pops out im either going all out witht he current and greatest M3, or hopping in the latest and greatest domestic Click here to enlarge
    I'm seriously looking hard at getting a e92 m , then supercharger, I had a lot of faith in this next m, now I'm not so sure
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    The only thing that matters is the displacement. If they are using the n55 they are locked into its bore spacing. Is the deck height taller than the N54? I think so because the R/S is better. Maybe it can be stroked. This engine could be great if it can do 3.5L+. If it is maxed at 3L like the N54, then its performance is severly capped unless it revs something ridiculous...

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    By the way @LostMarine I think u should just keep the m, it's a great car, there will always be faster cars, plus half of these "faster" cars don't even run without tons of issues. M3ntals p car is the only platform that seems real reliable at high power and even that car needs a lot of $$ to keep running. Just get a bigger blower :-)
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    If bimmerpoop is correct on even half of those accounts; then we can all start crying lol...
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
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    Only 415 hp? I'm getting a e92 m3 and installing a AA blower...
    If it weighs more than 33XX lbs I would agree with you. I do think the 415 is underestimated given the powerplant it is replacing at 414 hp.

    I will hold judgement until I see the car on an independent set of Longacre scales, after independent dynos.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
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    By the way @LostMarine I think u should just keep the m, it's a great car, there will always be faster cars, plus half of these "faster" cars don't even run without tons of issues. M3ntals p car is the only platform that seems real reliable at high power and even that car needs a lot of $$ to keep running. Just get a bigger blower :-)
    at some point, the dct becomes a hindrance . despite what djls and others want to claim, replacing stock clutches every 10k miles is not a solution, and not something i plan on doing every year..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
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    at some point, the dct becomes a hindrance . despite what djls and others want to claim, replacing stock clutches every 10k miles is not a solution, and not something i plan on doing every year..
    Maybe the unicorn build will show the flexibility of the DCT? Or maybe not... time will tell.

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    Now that I think about it... there is no way this information can be real. Maybe it's BMW trolling everyone... 415 hp with just more tq?? There is no way the car will be lighter; BMW doesn't know how to do that anymore plus how could you make it lighter than an F30 335i when you add a DCT, heavier motor, heavier drivetrain and LSD as well as heavier wheels and tires? I am guessing closer to 450 HP with TQ in the 400 range with a near identical weight... If that's not true... then the N54 will be the greatest turbo motor BMW will have ever built.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
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    at some point, the dct becomes a hindrance . despite what djls and others want to claim, replacing stock clutches every 10k miles is not a solution, and not something i plan on doing every year..
    Very true, so should I not get a dct? Heh
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
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    Very true, so should I not get a dct? Heh
    im talking over 600rwhp, under that, and not 100+ dragstrip launches back-back even after limp modes a la recent track events, i dont consider it an issue

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    Ok gotcha... 6mt cars are everywhere, low mileage dct cars are harder to find
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