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  1. #26
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    Valid points from all... But:

    Canada (yeah I know) has already allowed females to serve in combat roles.
    Israel (yeah... no need) has women filling in 69% of the combat roles in their army
    New Zealand (I know see a trend) Has zero restrictions on what roles females play in their military. They can serve in the infantry, artillery and armour...
    Back during WWII, many sucessful snipers were females (soviet union), but that was a totally different type of war, than what we have today (5th Top Sniper in History: Lyudmila Pavlichenko)

    I figure as long as they can do the job, I really don't care, but if they become a liability, then it's a problem...
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  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FLYING X5 Click here to enlarge
    Israel (yeah... no need) has women filling in 69% of the combat roles in their army
    This may seem misleading to some, so here is the whole information from Wikipedia:

    Women in the Israeli Defense Forces are female soldiers who serve in the Israel Defense Forces. Israel is the only country in the world with a mandatory military service requirement for women.[1][2][3] Women have taken part in Israel’s military before and since the founding of the state in 1948,[4][5] with women currently comprising 33% of all IDF soldiers and 51% of its officers,[6] fulfilling various roles within the Ground, Navy and Air Forces. The 2000 Equality amendment to the Military Service law states that "The right of women to serve in any role in the IDF is equal to the right of men."[3] As of now, 88% to 92%[7] of all roles in the IDF are open to female candidates, while women can be found in 69% of all positions

    That means women are found in 69% of all positions. Like, in 69% of the Military Occupational Specialties in the IDF, there are women found. Doesn't mean 69% of Israel's army is female. Just a clarification.

    Also, the comparison isn't really valid, because Israel has a mandatory service requirement for women. Read above, the only country in the world to do so.


    I've never served in the Canadian/New Zealand/Israeli armies, but I'd venture to say that different armys have different social and cultural views on woman combatants.


    Don't get me wrong, I've seen some badass women who can pull their weight, but in their respective positions. I've seen woman keep their calm, return fire, listen to orders, and make command decisions that were effective. But these are 88M most of the time, though I admire their fighting spirit. Truck drivers. Its different when its just you and the 8 other people you're with, clearing out mudhuts and trying to set up a cordon. Or set up a TCP and fire on people who approach without question. Different when you have to carry 100lbs on your back in 120+ degree weather. Women are inherently more emotional, and physically less capable (as a general rule). I don't think a woman has a place in the infantry.
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    im sorry, there is no logical reason to allow women into actual combat arms.

    1. hygiene, personally gone 59+ days without a shower or hygien of any sort in OIF, baby wipres ran out the first 2 weeks, after that noone cared. We $#@! in holes or boxes, wiped, maybe, and moved on. urinted in mopp4, maybe not if we had time.
    ever hear of toxic shock?
    how do you think they are going to be able to deal with such issues? logistically? its a concern, rightfully so.. so now we HAVE to put non combat members forward to provide it, you have to attach security to it, you have to have MORE water in an already scarce environment just for hygiene and not drinking.
    now what about that special time every month? you know, that thing that there is now even a "disorder" that some women "suffer" from?


    health equates to a commanders combat power and effectiveness, sick soldiers cant fight.

    2. ranger "school"? oh, you mean that trial where enlisted rangers could not evaluate the officer female ranger candidates? nope.. no bending of the rules or favorable action there..

    3. physical fitenss. sure, we all know a physically fit woman.. A. how many areof the total? B. how are they defined as physically fit? the APFT that has a maximum female score that equals the Male MINIMUM score? so, now you have that 1 -100 actual physical women, do you think she is the one that wants to be grunt?
    3a. load carrying. whats the average female weight? 120-150lbs? is it a fat weight or fit weight? consider that a basic loadout is around, if not more than 80 lbs (vest, ammo, radio, ach, medical equipment, ect) how long can they carry that? how fast can they move with it? what about your ruck? oh, that "backpack" that you live out of for as long as it takes, more ammo, more clothing, more equipment.. EASILY 50-100lbs ESPECIALLY if on mission.. i dare any of you to find a woman that can carry just a 60# ruck for 3 miles, let alone do it with a time hack, not even with the individual equipment a grunt wears. AAAAAANd thats on flat ground.. throw a mountain into that mutherfucker, and its game over.. Ive had the pleasure of never working ith females on mission, but I do have 2 former 3rd bat rangers in my section (how odd) that did have to have females FETT (?) teams with them, and they were out of the game within 30 minutes now with the real grunts having to carry their load.. this is reality, not in a perfect world that some peopel choose to believe exists.

    4. marksmanship.. dont even go there. you want women to shoot in controlled violence of action? they cant not flinch when they pull the trigger themselves on a range. i have had to teach them how to shoot.. or attempt to is more appropriate..

    now, i wont go into rape, because the next thing a person will say is that shouldnt happen at all.. correct, what about pregnancy NOT through rape? well, now she's out.. so much time and $$ invested into combat effectiveness and that person, maybe a private, or maybe a leader, is now out of the fight..

    next, what about "relations" you dont think some guy is gonna get in those pants WITH her consent? what about a relationship? well, now you go into good order and discipline..

    next, morale. rela morale, not looking at the ugliest girl is bette than the prettiest man type of moral, but real moral.. the bond we share is not found anywhere else on earth.. you CANNOT build that with a woman..

    standards.. as long as the standards are NOT equal, a woman will never get the respect she believes she earned, if she didnt compete on a TRUELY equal system.. I already make fun of POGs in non-combat MOS because they are not REAL NCO's, they are "specialists" they do not have the authority that is derived from being a grunt. let a femal grunt that was held to lower standards EVER tell me what to do, ill laugh in her $#@!ing face. Combat, ie WAR is not a $#@!ing joke, and not a political talking point. They CANNOT $#@!ing do it. mentally or physically. its genetics.

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    Like I said before, I'm not an advocate of it but some of your arguments are not true. Are the standards at most Army schools (I only speak of Army because I have 14 years in the Army and am unfamiliar with other services) to include Airborne, Air Assault, Pathfinder, SLC, ALC, WOBC, WOCS, OCS, etc the standards are all the same. Male, female, all the same. Sure the APFT standards are different. Let's just say I'm very familiar with Special Operations units, there have been women in the most elite Army special operations units for a VERY long time. just saying. Once again, I don't think every unit, company, platoon is a good fit for women, definately not. You cannot generalize you comments as so though, they are just not true and misleading to people who do not have the experience that we do. For example, you say women should not be in combat arms, very general. I say, why not have women in ADA? That's combat arms...... Women engineers? I know plenty of female EOD techs. They are smarter and blow up way more $#@! than your average engineer Soldier? So that's two combat arms fields. My point is, I think you mean, women should not be in the Infantry..... And I agree with that 100%. The top of a mountain with a 50lb ruck, in 90 degree heat, walking for days, in marawara disctrict, kunar province is certainly no place for a woman. Let's not be so totally against the idea that we are blind to the fact that in some ways it's a good idea. not all, but some.....

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    im sorry, there is no logical reason to allow women into actual combat arms.

    1. hygiene, personally gone 59+ days without a shower or hygien of any sort in OIF, baby wipres ran out the first 2 weeks, after that noone cared. We $#@! in holes or boxes, wiped, maybe, and moved on. urinted in mopp4, maybe not if we had time.
    ever hear of toxic shock?
    how do you think they are going to be able to deal with such issues? logistically? its a concern, rightfully so.. so now we HAVE to put non combat members forward to provide it, you have to attach security to it, you have to have MORE water in an already scarce environment just for hygiene and not drinking.
    now what about that special time every month? you know, that thing that there is now even a "disorder" that some women "suffer" from?


    health equates to a commanders combat power and effectiveness, sick soldiers cant fight.

    2. ranger "school"? oh, you mean that trial where enlisted rangers could not evaluate the officer female ranger candidates? nope.. no bending of the rules or favorable action there..

    3. physical fitenss. sure, we all know a physically fit woman.. A. how many areof the total? B. how are they defined as physically fit? the APFT that has a maximum female score that equals the Male MINIMUM score? so, now you have that 1 -100 actual physical women, do you think she is the one that wants to be grunt?
    3a. load carrying. whats the average female weight? 120-150lbs? is it a fat weight or fit weight? consider that a basic loadout is around, if not more than 80 lbs (vest, ammo, radio, ach, medical equipment, ect) how long can they carry that? how fast can they move with it? what about your ruck? oh, that "backpack" that you live out of for as long as it takes, more ammo, more clothing, more equipment.. EASILY 50-100lbs ESPECIALLY if on mission.. i dare any of you to find a woman that can carry just a 60# ruck for 3 miles, let alone do it with a time hack, not even with the individual equipment a grunt wears. AAAAAANd thats on flat ground.. throw a mountain into that mutherfucker, and its game over.. Ive had the pleasure of never working ith females on mission, but I do have 2 former 3rd bat rangers in my section (how odd) that did have to have females FETT (?) teams with them, and they were out of the game within 30 minutes now with the real grunts having to carry their load.. this is reality, not in a perfect world that some peopel choose to believe exists.

    4. marksmanship.. dont even go there. you want women to shoot in controlled violence of action? they cant not flinch when they pull the trigger themselves on a range. i have had to teach them how to shoot.. or attempt to is more appropriate..

    now, i wont go into rape, because the next thing a person will say is that shouldnt happen at all.. correct, what about pregnancy NOT through rape? well, now she's out.. so much time and $$ invested into combat effectiveness and that person, maybe a private, or maybe a leader, is now out of the fight..

    next, what about "relations" you dont think some guy is gonna get in those pants WITH her consent? what about a relationship? well, now you go into good order and discipline..

    next, morale. rela morale, not looking at the ugliest girl is bette than the prettiest man type of moral, but real moral.. the bond we share is not found anywhere else on earth.. you CANNOT build that with a woman..

    standards.. as long as the standards are NOT equal, a woman will never get the respect she believes she earned, if she didnt compete on a TRUELY equal system.. I already make fun of POGs in non-combat MOS because they are not REAL NCO's, they are "specialists" they do not have the authority that is derived from being a grunt. let a femal grunt that was held to lower standards EVER tell me what to do, ill laugh in her $#@!ing face. Combat, ie WAR is not a $#@!ing joke, and not a political talking point. They CANNOT $#@!ing do it. mentally or physically. its genetics.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, DCI, 7" FMIC, MT ET Streets when needed


  5. #30
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    and now we wait for the first reported front line rape story.....

    I agree women should not be allowed to do this because they are women, and they are not built like men. That is all.

    Oh well. Everyone wants to be equal even if its not right.




  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
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    Like I said before, I'm not an advocate of it but some of your arguments are not true. Are the standards at most Army schools (I only speak of Army because I have 14 years in the Army and am unfamiliar with other services) to include Airborne, Air Assault, Pathfinder, SLC, ALC, WOBC, WOCS, OCS, etc the standards are all the same.

    same how? same for men and women? never. i believe airborne is the only one with 18yr age group, for your sex of course.. ncoes schools are definitly male/female graded, again, our minimum is their maximum




    Male, female, all the same. Sure the APFT standards are different.


    Let's just say I'm very familiar with Special Operations units, there have been women in the most elite Army special operations units for a VERY long time.
    no there have not, as i already stated, there have been attachments, and those attachments cannot even keep up. I know this for fact.

    just saying. Once again, I don't think every unit, company, platoon is a good fit for women, definately not.
    right, its called combat arms. 11, 13, 18, 19 series specifically. those who ACTUAL job is to locate engage, close with and destroy.. not the support elements

    You cannot generalize you comments as so though, they are just not true and misleading to people who do not have the experience that we do.
    i believe i was VERY descript in why its not generalized, in fact, generalizing is saying, well, i know this girl that is good.. or i know this guy thats not good... how many people WILL DIE because those .01 %'s want to feel special?

    For example, you say women should not be in combat arms, very general. I say, why not have women in ADA?

    ADA? thats not combat arms, thats combat support

    That's combat arms...... Women engineers? I know plenty of female EOD techs.

    combat support, not combat arms


    They are smarter and blow up way more $#@! than your average engineer Soldier? So that's two combat arms fields.

    combat support, not combat arms

    My point is, I think you mean, women should not be in the Infantry..... And I agree with that 100%.

    in the combat arms units, not just infantry Click here to enlarge

    The top of a mountain with a 50lb ruck, in 90 degree heat, walking for days, in marawara disctrict, kunar province is certainly no place for a woman.

    so, you agree Click here to enlarge


    Let's not be so totally against the idea that we are blind to the fact that in some ways it's a good idea. not all, but some.....

    sorry, ill accept "some" when i at least see ONE Click here to enlarge
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  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    like me, responses in BOLD
    I give to you rep +1




  8. #33
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    Well your comments are mostly all wrong. The only difference in grading the schools I mentioned is APFT. FACT.

    Women are ASSIGNED to special operations units. FACT.

    12 series is combat arms. FACT
    ADA is combat arms. FACT

    others that have not been in 14 years, are not Army Officers and are not assigned to one of the most elite special operations units in the Army may believe you but I know better.

    I agree women don't belong in the Infantry and ill leave it at that.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    Well your comments are mostly all wrong. The only difference in grading the schools I mentioned is APFT. FACT.
    so there is gender bias, ok, thanks. oh, so you dont knwo that those female ranger candidates were already given preferential treatment? maybe do some due diligence on the history of what you speak
    Women are ASSIGNED to special operations units. FACT.
    -show me an 18 series female, attached/assigned is nothing. admin clerks are assigned/attached to all sorts, doesnt mean they have ANYTHING to do with doing the job itself

    12 series is combat arms. FACT

    combat arms, is front line, not FLOD

    ADA is combat arms. FACT
    FLOD

    others that have not been in 14 years, are not Army Officers and are not assigned to one of the most elite special operations units in the Army may believe you but I know better.

    so your telling me your 18 series? interesting.. tell me more.. b,c, d, or 18 (officer)?

    as someone who also has time assigned to soc commands, Im sure i can hold my own in this debate..


    I agree women don't belong in the Infantry and ill leave it at that.
    or 13, 18,19 series.. but hey.. they are not infantry either..

    elaborate please

  10. #35
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    Special operations assignments is not something I'm going to discuss on a public forum. Pm me if you care to discuss it further. You've been in the community. You can look at my info and put 2+2 together.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    Special operations assignments is not something I'm going to discuss on a public forum. Pm me if you care to discuss it further. You've been in the community. You can look at my info and put 2+2 together.
    no need man, like i said, SF needs to get paid and promoted as well. admin, clerical, intelligence folks LOVE to claim something they dont actually do..

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    This is 1000% a horrible idea! We talk about rape with the good guys, can you fathom what the enemy would do to our female soldiers! Or how would a group of male soldiers react if a female soldier was captured?? They would attempt to get her no matter what! As any man should. Why do we have to pretend men and women are equal, there not. Men have harder bones and more muscle mass by % yes there are a small percentage of women that are physically stronger than most men but they still have to sit down to pee! Try that in a hurry with a pack on with full gear

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    no need man, like i said, SF needs to get paid and promoted as well. admin, clerical, intelligence folks LOVE to claim something they dont actually do..
    A-$#@!ing-men. I just had a guy come in the other day, talking about how he was SF this and badass that. I'm like listen man, you have a $#@!ing maroon beret. You're not SF dude. Medics assigned to my unit aren't infantry. Have some pride in your work, but don't claim to be someone you're not.

    Well, he didn't buy a car from me, but at that point I didn't give a toot.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    ...standards.. as long as the standards are NOT equal, a woman will never get the respect she believes she earned, if she didnt compete on a TRUELY equal system.. I already make fun of POGs in non-combat MOS because they are not REAL NCO's, they are "specialists" they do not have the authority that is derived from being a grunt. let a femal grunt that was held to lower standards EVER tell me what to do, ill laugh in her $#@!ing face. Combat, ie WAR is not a $#@!ing joke, and not a political talking point. They CANNOT $#@!ing do it. mentally or physically. its genetics.
    I like you alot more now LM no homo


    edit: someone mod him for me I can't give him anymore yet
    Click here to enlarge
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    Well I'm not going into the military so if a chick wants to take my place go for it.

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    I surely hope you're not insinuating that I'm posing to be something I'm not. Anyone from the community with half a brain isn't going to identify their job, unit or anything else on a public forum.

    I really don't think the people that have made this decision are as dumb as you think they are. I have a feeling it's going to work out just fine.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    no need man, like i said, SF needs to get paid and promoted as well. admin, clerical, intelligence folks LOVE to claim something they dont actually do..
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    I surely hope you're not insinuating that I'm posing to be something I'm not. Anyone from the community with half a brain isn't going to identify their job, unit or anything else on a public forum.

    I really don't think the people that have made this decision are as dumb as you think they are. I have a feeling it's going to work out just fine.
    The government made this decision based on the pressure of women's "equal" rights.

    I think anything the government say's and or does, is dumb. I think the people making the choices are dumb, and I think they will always try to make themselves look like the good guys so that they do not loose they position / rank / job.

    So sick of equal rights bull$#@!.




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    From what I understand there are some lawsuits from former female military members claiming that due to thier inability to serve in combat leadership roles they did not have the promotion potential of a male service member. The peanut gallery has said that this is what has led to this decision. With that being said, the top military brass are not going to compromise the force based on these decisions. Everyone was screaming this same crap after don't ask don't tell was repealed. All of the narrowminded ignorant gay haters we saying this is never going to work, i hate gays, etc. However many months later, you don't hear about it........ AT ALL. I have a feeling this will be the same way. The military has until 2016 to reclama any positions it feels that women can not fill. Once that is complete (4 years from now) this whole thing will be on the back burner due to a new president, prob a new conflict and whatever else is going on. There aren't a bunch of women lining up to be combat arms anyways, out of the ones that may in the future, if it's even possible, how many will pass? I'm just saying, I think it will work itself out eventually.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    The government made this decision based on the pressure of women's "equal" rights.

    I think anything the government say's and or does, is dumb. I think the people making the choices are dumb, and I think they will always try to make themselves look like the good guys so that they do not loose they position / rank / job.

    So sick of equal rights bull$#@!.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, DCI, 7" FMIC, MT ET Streets when needed


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    From what I understand there are some lawsuits from former female military members claiming that due to thier inability to serve in combat leadership roles they did not have the promotion potential of a male service member. The peanut gallery has said that this is what has led to this decision. With that being said, the top military brass are not going to compromise the force based on these decisions. Everyone was screaming this same crap after don't ask don't tell was repealed. All of the narrowminded ignorant gay haters we saying this is never going to work, i hate gays, etc. However many months later, you don't hear about it........ AT ALL. I have a feeling this will be the same way. The military has until 2016 to reclama any positions it feels that women can not fill. Once that is complete (4 years from now) this whole thing will be on the back burner due to a new president, prob a new conflict and whatever else is going on. There aren't a bunch of women lining up to be combat arms anyways, out of the ones that may in the future, if it's even possible, how many will pass? I'm just saying, I think it will work itself out eventually.
    I don't think gays should be around a bunch of other guys either.

    Thats just nasty

    But then again, are gay people really gay? or do they choose to be gay and can be straight when need be? Seems to be the latter.




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    I don't know and don't really care. None have ever hit on me or done anything that i deemed inapropriate in front of me, so really what is the difference. I have buddies that spent a whole year on a little camp in the middle of the mountains, some of them being the most anti-gay people i have ever met. Not once since the ban was lifted have any of them talked about the ban being lifted or any issues they've had with gay Soldiers. Not once. I think the military did a real unpopular thing at the time knowing it would eventually become a non-issue, the same as they're doing now.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    I don't think gays should be around a bunch of other guys either.

    Thats just nasty

    But then again, are gay people really gay? or do they choose to be gay and can be straight when need be? Seems to be the latter.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, DCI, 7" FMIC, MT ET Streets when needed


  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    I don't know and don't really care. None have ever hit on me or done anything that i deemed inapropriate in front of me, so really what is the difference. I have buddies that spent a whole year on a little camp in the middle of the mountains, some of them being the most anti-gay people i have ever met. Not once since the ban was lifted have any of them talked about the ban being lifted or any issues they've had with gay Soldiers. Not once. I think the military did a real unpopular thing at the time knowing it would eventually become a non-issue, the same as they're doing now.
    I think the government is just trying to slowly (haha as is everything they do) press gay's into society.

    Hell even Obama came right out and said he is for it.

    Furthermore I think its bull$#@!.

    But as im not in the military because I think getting shot at would $#@!ing suck and I am smart enough to run my own business, i have no voice and or opinion that really matters in regards to what our military does with its people.




  22. #47
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    At least you admit that you have no dog in this fight. It is certainly a whole different world on this side that 99% of the population cannot/will not ever understand.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    I think the government is just trying to slowly (haha as is everything they do) press gay's into society.

    Hell even Obama came right out and said he is for it.

    Furthermore I think its bull$#@!.

    But as im not in the military because I think getting shot at would $#@!ing suck and I am smart enough to run my own business, i have no voice and or opinion that really matters in regards to what our military does with its people.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, DCI, 7" FMIC, MT ET Streets when needed


  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    I surely hope you're not insinuating that I'm posing to be something I'm not. Anyone from the community with half a brain isn't going to identify their job, unit or anything else on a public forum.

    I really don't think the people that have made this decision are as dumb as you think they are. I have a feeling it's going to work out just fine.

    im not accusing or saying anything, other than 11/18 series are the tip of the spear, i allow leniency in my thought process coming from the USMC in which scouts and a few other MOS are considered grunts aswell, even though the Army is more separatist as ANYTHING not 11B/18B is a POG

    , I refuse to continue to debate with someone thats not a professional gunslinger, on who can and should be in combat arms..as they have never been in the situation, to KNOW why MEN do the job..

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    im not accusing or saying anything, other than 11/18 series are the tip of the spear
    Yup no reason to argue with a person that makes the above comment. You sound like you should have either stuck with the Marines or you just don't have enough experience to truly understand the Army......

    I'm done here.

    NSDQ
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, DCI, 7" FMIC, MT ET Streets when needed


  25. #50
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ammonia Click here to enlarge
    A-$#@!ing-men. I just had a guy come in the other day, talking about how he was SF this and badass that. I'm like listen man, you have a $#@!ing maroon beret. You're not SF dude. Medics assigned to my unit aren't infantry. Have some pride in your work, but don't claim to be someone you're not.

    Well, he didn't buy a car from me, but at that point I didn't give a toot.

    here ya go Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

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