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  1. #76
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    Replacing DI for PI is not only a bad idea, it also introduces high risk. This platform was built with DI in mind. Having fuel now pool in from the intake manifold will change the combustion characteristics in a major way. The reason we can run higher compression on this car and this much boost and not blow up is all thanks to direct injection. Just saying that we should ditch it so we can fuel more solves nothing and is not a well thought out statement or argument.
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  2. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Its one of the reasons this engine has good economy, quick spool, and high power output.
    Only the first two.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    No the issue with wall wetting comes from the DI spraying so much that the cylinder wall is washed with fuel. This could remove the oil protecting it thus causing catastrophic failure.
    +1. I read a bit of engineering data on the topic of DI in general and this is the case.

    This was brought up in the past as some of the N54's that have had oil analysis done had shown high fuel concentration in the engine oil, IIRC.

    The ideal solution would probably be to not raise fuel pressure nor lengthen the single injection time so much around where the OEM programming has it (right before ignition, piston near TDC on comp stroke) but rather use a 2nd injection event likely a bit earlier (near BDC for example). Just have to test a little and see if it causes any combustion wierdness (doubtful).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Only the first two.
    For this CR if you ditch DI, you're in deep $#@! power wise. You also lose some of the awesome E85 cooling benefit by injecting port.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BavarianBullet Click here to enlarge
    +1. I read a bit of engineering data on the topic of DI in general and this is the case.

    This was brought up in the past as some of the N54's that have had oil analysis done had shown high fuel concentration in the engine oil, IIRC.

    The ideal solution would probably be to not raise fuel pressure nor lengthen the single injection time so much around where the OEM programming has it (right before ignition, piston near TDC on comp stroke) but rather use a 2nd injection event likely a bit earlier (near BDC for example). Just have to test a little and see if it causes any combustion wierdness (doubtful).
    Exactly. The motor already has provisions for multiple events at certain rpm/load. Maybe one day Cobb can exploit that.

  6. #81
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    With this being said, proEFIs secondary port injection on top of the DI is making more and more sense correct?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BavarianBullet Click here to enlarge
    +1. I read a bit of engineering data on the topic of DI in general and this is the case.

    This was brought up in the past as some of the N54's that have had oil analysis done had shown high fuel concentration in the engine oil, IIRC.

    The ideal solution would probably be to not raise fuel pressure nor lengthen the single injection time so much around where the OEM programming has it (right before ignition, piston near TDC on comp stroke) but rather use a 2nd injection event likely a bit earlier (near BDC for example). Just have to test a little and see if it causes any combustion wierdness (doubtful).
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    For this CR if you ditch DI, you're in deep $#@! power wise. You also lose some of the awesome E85 cooling benefit by injecting port.
    Ya but you also reach fuel system limitations well before you get to big power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Ya but you also reach fuel system limitations well before you get to big power.
    I disagree. People haven't legitimately tried yet. Its a chicken and egg thing, no large turbos that need it results in no fuel development and vice versa. This platform is starting to come down in price to the point that people are willing to tinker with it. I don't see any of the fueling blocks we have as significant. Limited injector capacity would worry me more than anything else, and we will be fine there. Its not like fueling a car is some big obstacle no one has ever dealt with. I built a megasquirt system for a Ford 302 from all different kind of parts. You could do the same thing here if you wanted to go PI, no reason to wait for ProEFI. There's just a lot less tech heavy people on this platform, but that is changing.

  9. #84
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I disagree. People haven't legitimately tried yet
    Really? What is a legitimate try?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Really? What is a legitimate try?
    Maybe people have legitimately tried, just not the right people. The LPFP should be basically a non issue on any platform since it has been done so many times. HPFP has been done before as well, but its a bit more complex. Look at the MS3 guys, they knocked all this out a while ago. Like I aid, the platform is just expensive and there isn't much tech talk, so a lot of the DIYers haven't come here yet. This is all being taken care of now, I am not knocking current efforts. Just saying fuel hasn't truly been a blocker imho.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    With this being said, proEFIs secondary port injection on top of the DI is making more and more sense correct?
    Secondary PI will probably work fine but it's not exactly going to be cheap using a proEFI 128(?). I'd think for the ProEFI unit, harness, sensors, injectors, intake manifold (assuming 6 injectors) and all the plumbing it's going to be upwards of $5k. Not bad for 800-1200WHP if we ever get there but for up to 800WHP, if we can get the HPFP fixed, I'd think people would go that route as it will be a bit cheaper and easier.

    I wager the HPFP will probably be addressed before the ProEFI is working on an N54 and the HPFP will either be a cheap mod to the stock pump (drilled inlet for an -AN fitting) or a rebuilt pump for hopefully around $1000. Not hating on proEFI, I hope they release for the N54 soon, it's just we have a history with parts wait on this platform. Click here to enlarge

    That said, the failure rate on DI injectors is pretty scary.

    my 2c.

  12. #87
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Like I aid, the platform is just expensive and there isn't much tech talk, so a lot of the DIYers haven't come here yet. This is all being taken care of now, I am not knocking current efforts. Just saying fuel hasn't truly been a blocker imho.
    I believe the fuel system and tuning really is the main hangup on the platform (other than the block, packaging, and internals but that's a separate issue). You can't really DIY once the systems start getting this complex.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I believe the fuel system and tuning really is the main hangup on the platform (other than the block, packaging, and internals but that's a separate issue). You can't really DIY once the systems start getting this complex.
    I just don't see it personally. Where specifically are these blocks? Like I said everything up to the injectors should be relatively easy to solve. The tuning is another thing, but I really cant believe that we cannot come up with a solution (there are plenty of standalone systems out there that can be wired up to do PI if you really wanted. DI I haven't looked into). I just don't see any of these things being seriously blocks. The reality is there just aren't that many people with the means and the know how to want to take an entry level BMW to 1000hp. Its not a sports car...

  14. #89
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I just don't see it personally. Where specifically are these blocks? Like I said everything up to the injectors should be relatively easy to solve. The tuning is another thing, but I really cant believe that we cannot come up with a solution (there are plenty of standalone systems out there that can be wired up to do PI if you really wanted. DI I haven't looked into). I just don't see any of these things being seriously blocks. The reality is there just aren't that many people with the means and the know how to want to take an entry level BMW to 1000hp. Its not a sports car...
    If it was relatively easy why are we going on 8 years now?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If it was relatively easy why are we going on 8 years now?
    I just explained that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I just explained that.
    Yes, but I don't agree with your explanation as I believe it is a vast oversimplification as the development timeline supports.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes, but I don't agree with your explanation as I believe it is a vast oversimplification as the development timeline supports.
    I don't think that is a fair statement. LPFP fix is essentially a new pump dropped in to replace the stock one, there are already HPFP companies that will solve that if there is volume. Long development timelines don't necessarily mean the development is difficult. There are myriads of reasons projects get held up and I would say more often then not it is not because they are difficult (I am on the bleeding edge of a section of the solar industry and am going off that amongst other things). This platform is expensive and isn't a sports car and isn't ever going to be a good drag racer. That knocks out pretty much all of the hardcore tech guys and DIYers. Take a look at e90post, the most visited BMW forum, the tech section is littered with "omg software made my wastegates rattle", "which tune should I get?", and blind denial of basic Engineering principles. Take a look at an RX7, 240z, Camaro, Corvette, MS3, Audi, etc forums tech section and it puts this platform to shame tbh. This is one of the only places you can get anything decent.

  18. #93
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Long development timelines don't necessarily mean the development is difficult.
    No but when you combine that with constant pump failures and fueling issues and insane amount of meth to circumvent limitations not to mention the timeline of no reliable high up fueling upgrade it certainly supports difficult more than no solid effort.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Take a look at e90post, the most visited BMW forum, the tech section is littered with "omg software made my wastegates rattle", "which tune should I get?", and blind denial of basic Engineering principles.
    Yes as that is the target audience. Look here though where the hardcore and more talented are... the problem remains.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Take a look at an RX7, 240z, Camaro, Corvette, MS3, Audi, etc forums tech section and it puts this platform to shame tbh. This is one of the only places you can get anything decent.
    Agreed but those guys also aren't dealing with direct injection issues. If you look at the Audi direct injection fueling development on the 2.0's it is all that much better.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No but when you combine that with constant pump failures and fueling issues and insane amount of meth to circumvent limitations not to mention the timeline of no reliable high up fueling upgrade it certainly supports difficult more than no solid effort.



    Yes as that is the target audience. Look here though where the hardcore and more talented are... the problem remains.



    Agreed but those guys also aren't dealing with direct injection issues. If you look at the Audi direct injection fueling development on the 2.0's it is all that much better.
    I hear what you're saying, I just don't agree. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I am sure this platform will pick up eventually (its already starting). Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I hear what you're saying, I just don't agree. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I am sure this platform will pick up eventually (its already starting). Click here to enlarge
    Another thing with those other platforms you've mentioned, they've been around a lot longer. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with your argument, but thought I'd point out that the N54 is just now getting going. Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Another thing with those other platforms you've mentioned, they've been around a lot longer. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with your argument, but thought I'd point out that the N54 is just now getting going. Click here to enlarge
    Its been around 8 years. That's pretty long. My point is this is an entry level mid range (M for performance) model that costs $50k new and isn't great on the track or strip. This is a great high power DD for cruising around. I bought this car for high speed cruising and some luxury and its perfect for that. This isn't the car I put DIY effort into due to the aforementioned reasons. I mod this too just to entertain my free time. Lets see how long it takes the corvette guys to get the DI making big power, I promise you now it won't be 8 years lol.

  22. #97
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I hear what you're saying, I just don't agree. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I am sure this platform will pick up eventually (its already starting). Click here to enlarge
    Agree to disagree. But agree to agree regarding it picking up.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Agree to disagree. But agree to agree regarding it picking up.
    Oh hell yeah! I am going to try and jam almost a liter of meth down the throats of these turbos. Lets see what happens.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    No the issue with wall wetting comes from the DI spraying so much that the cylinder wall is washed with fuel. This could remove the oil protecting it thus causing catastrophic failure.
    BUT the DI is spraying straight down and JUST before ignition spark near peak compression, there shouldn't be a chance for the fuel to wet the walls. unless it properly floods

    i don't think that would be a concern until 1000+ hp, as it's not much of an issue for conventional PI cars either.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    I had the bad batch of injectors replaced under recall. A year later the new part numbers started failing too. I'm not a big fan of these injectors and i bet many more people have bad injectors and just don't know it.
    ahh fair enough, well, yeah it's something to think about then.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I completely agree that for aftermarket injectors to work, it would require replacing the OEM DME with a standalone system (ProEFI) to take over all engine related functions. Outside of injectors failing on their own (on both stock & highly modified cars), I don't think there's a particular setup that's more susceptible to injector failure (like ST kits). I wouldn't say it's a "we'll fix it when we get there" thing because clearly the OEM injectors are a problem where they're repeatedly failing. If it was as simple as swapping out the OEM injectors for higher flow ones (like on the higher HP S65 supercharge kits), then it would've been done already (I understand the S65 isn't a DI motor, so this probably simplifies things).
    well... we'll fix it when it's fixable? lol

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