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  1. #26
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    i know methanol droplets can mess up the turbos, but instead what if you inject only water pre turbo and meth post ic still get cooling and octane benifits.

    not to sure if said already sory if repost

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Nice project. Are you injecting post-IC also? When you mention mechanical, you are activating pump with pressure switch and controlling solenoid with JB4? Why the 2 inlet nozzles… does this mean 3 splitters?

    The limited WGDC eval I’ve tried its hard to reach a conclusion unless the difference is substantial… like >5%. A thought would be to get a test map from Terry (if possible) running X% DC at WOT and then check the psi difference on/off pre-turbo meth. I’m sure there is a logging channel for checking PID from base though, which I haven’t used… not sure if JB is a defined base map, or still some piggybacking off the DME.

    Most pre-turbo injection with other platforms (LSx, supra) is at the compressor vaporizing across the blades, but this would be quite difficult in labor rigging this up for the n54. For us I think we have to be concerned with all the liquid vaporizing before the blades… if this is a concern, more meth% seems to be better.

    I’ve thought about just adding 1 0.5mm nozzle in the airbox. Worst case is unequal distribution between banks making 1 turbo more efficient, but this is still beneficial.
    I am injecting only pre-turbo for now. In the future maybe post-IC, but any injection after the IC will drive up the demands on the turbo which is exactly what I am trying to avoid right now. A little after the IC could be nice though, will have to see.

    By mechanical I mean the boost air generated by the turbos is what forces the liquid through the nozzles, not an electric pump. The flow will be activated by adjustable boost switch and the flow will be picked up with the JB4. The JB4 will then add boost using the current meth additive system. One of the benefits of the mechanical injection is that the flow will be proportional to boost pressure and thus I shouldn't have a ton of meth dumping too early when air volume is low.

    I am hoping the difference is much more than 5%. That is a good idea about limiting PWM to a specific value. I agree with your assesment about more meth being better. For me it will be necessity as well since I do not have a Cobb to handle fueling. I am already at my trim ceiling.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by crazylegs Click here to enlarge
    i know methanol droplets can mess up the turbos, but instead what if you inject only water pre turbo and meth post ic still get cooling and octane benifits.

    not to sure if said already sory if repost
    Water will vaporize more slowly then meth. Means bigger chance of impinging the turbos.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    By mechanical I mean the boost air generated by the turbos is what forces the liquid through the nozzles, not an electric pump. The flow will be activated by adjustable boost switch and the flow will be picked up with the JB4. The JB4 will then add boost using the current meth additive system. One of the benefits of the mechanical injection is that the flow will be proportional to boost pressure and thus I shouldn't have a ton of meth dumping too early when air volume is low.
    Ok, cool… you stated this in the OP, but I didn’t understand it at first. So the boost pressure is used to pressurize the meth tank? Wouldn't max injection pressure = boost pressure… not factoring system restrictions. I'd be concerned with atomization, since I thought meth nozzles only work well at higher pressures of maybe >50psi. Test with an air compressor and post a vid.

    This is definitely a new approach.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Ok, cool… you stated this in the OP, but I didn’t understand it at first. So the boost pressure is used to pressurize the meth tank? Wouldn't max injection pressure = boost pressure… not factoring system restrictions. I'd be concerned with atomization, since I thought meth nozzles only work well at higher pressures of maybe >50psi. Test with an air compressor and post a vid.
    Yes, that is correct. These nozzles are not fed by fluid only. They are 2-port. They take in air and fluid. The 20 psi air shoots and breaks the 20 psi fluid up into fine droplets. These should out perform the 200psi pump setups and should be more on par with the 3000 psi single port setups.

    I guess I should try with an air compressor (I only have a crappy one at home though).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    This is definitely a new approach.
    Yeah, I am going this route after a lot of research. I wouldn't be doing it this way unless I really thought this was the correct way to do it. My starting capacity is 600ml/min and I believe I can ramp to 1200 or so. I know that is a lot, but that is the amount others have recommend for this type of setup and these HP targets.
    Last edited by rudypoochris; 01-22-2013 at 05:57 PM.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Nice project. Are you injecting post-IC also? When you mention mechanical, you are activating pump with pressure switch and controlling solenoid with JB4? Why the 2 inlet nozzles… does this mean 3 splitters?

    The limited WGDC eval I’ve tried its hard to reach a conclusion unless the difference is substantial… like >5%. A thought would be to get a test map from Terry (if possible) running X% DC at WOT and then check the psi difference on/off pre-turbo meth. I’m sure there is a logging channel for checking PID from base though, which I haven’t used… not sure if JB is a defined base map, or still some piggybacking off the DME.

    Most pre-turbo injection with other platforms (LSx, supra) is at the compressor vaporizing across the blades, but this would be quite difficult in labor rigging this up for the n54. For us I think we have to be concerned with all the liquid vaporizing before the blades… if this is a concern, more meth% seems to be better.

    I’ve thought about just adding 1 0.5mm nozzle in the airbox. Worst case is unequal distribution between banks making 1 turbo more efficient, but this is still beneficial.
    Someone else already did this. They were from arizona, I don't know the outcome of this.
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  6. #31
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    Sweet project, ill be watching for updates!
    Click here to enlarge

  7. #32
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    I've brought this up some time back already. Maybe you read my thread? http://e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332729

    Here is a post by DBFIU, he actually used my IAT gauge for the project I think! http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showth...light=preturbo

    And here is Cosworth:
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  8. #33
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    pre-turbo has been done before but, to my knowledge, not with the mechanical injection approach described here... for the n54

  9. #34
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    This type of setup has been done before. RX-7 and Grand Nationals run this type some times and I got a lot of information and some of the parts from over there. It hasn't been done on this platform to my knowledge though. Also I don't think anyone has attempted to inject this quantity of meth/water in front of the turbos yet - electric or otherwise. I didn't invent this strategy, just probably one of the firsts to try it on this platform.
    Last edited by rudypoochris; 01-22-2013 at 07:10 PM.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    This type of setup has been done before. RX-7 and Grand Nationals run this type some times and I got a lot of information and some of the parts from over there. It hasn't been done on this platform to my knowledge though. Also I don't think anyone has attempted to inject this quantity of meth/water in front of the turbos yet - electric or otherwise. I didn't invent this strategy, just probably one of the firsts to try it on this platform.
    I was just referring to preturbo on the n54.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I was just referring to preturbo on the n54.
    Ahhh, yes. Definitely been done before. Terry did it a couple months ago without favorable results. I believe DBFIU did it a long time ago with positive results, but nothing crazy.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Worst case is unequal distribution between banks making 1 turbo more efficient, but this is still beneficial.
    This would cool the air temps, but completely miss the point of changing the compressor mass flow efficiency. There must be fluid entering the compressor housing, not vaporized, for the full effect to be realized.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    This would cool the air temps, but completely miss the point of changing the compressor mass flow efficiency. There must be fluid entering the compressor housing, not vaporized, for the full effect to be realized.
    Yeah, sorry I have said vaporized/atomized/etc but really what I have meant is very small droplets. The energy/heat of the compressor will ideally help change the phase of the liquid into gas and during that process the fluid will suck up the compression heat. Ideally Tout will be near ambient when they head into the IC. Likely it will not be that cool, but one can only hope.

    Will you benefit from spraying meth to cool the charge pre-turbo, probably, just not as much.

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    I have found a logging solution. Never underestimate Velleman!

    http://www.vellemanusa.com/products/view/?id=500071

    NOTE: This is a kit, you have to build it.

    4 port USB logger with 100hz sampling and 10mV sensitivity. Plan to log Tout, Pout, and maybe Tin/Pin. I'd love to get a direct measurement of turbine speed, but I am not looking to tap the housings to be honest.

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    This would cool the air temps, but completely miss the point of changing the compressor mass flow efficiency. There must be fluid entering the compressor housing, not vaporized, for the full effect to be realized.
    Oh yes, gotcha. So may actually need water to "prevent" vaporization. My thinking was definitely off. Otherwise solely post-turbo would have similar, if not better, results.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Oh yes, gotcha. So may actually need water to "prevent" vaporization. My thinking was definitely off. Otherwise solely post-turbo would have similar, if not better, results.
    Post turbo does the opposite of preturbo in terms of stress on the turbo. Post turbo will make more power if your compressor can take it. Ours are already at the edge.

    Its a fine line here in that you want to be vaporized and small drops enough not to damage the compressor, but not fully atomized. I think your chances of full atomization in that short of a distance is small. You can have nice small drops though if all is right.

  17. #42
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    I think a staggered injection setup would work the best once you finalize the pre turbo method. Getting that thing as close to the compressor as possible would be my primary priority, however that may prove to be quite difficult without excessive fabrication that would just merrit a turbo upgrade anyway. I'm curious what you can do with the stock setup.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I think a staggered injection setup would work the best once you finalize the pre turbo method. Getting that thing as close to the compressor as possible would be my primary priority, however that may prove to be quite difficult without excessive fabrication that would just merrit a turbo upgrade anyway. I'm curious what you can do with the stock setup.
    I was thinking farther is better to let the drop size reduce, but that's pure speculation. We'll see!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I was thinking farther is better to let the drop size reduce, but that's pure speculation. We'll see!
    What if you tapped right into the compressor housing LOL
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    Any thoughts on what happens at the point of your injection starting? Lets say you decide to start spray at 7psi, you been cruising along for a while and decides to floor it, your compressors are mighty warm already and then your colder than ambient small droplets of meth/water hits them. I am getting at what is the risk of cracks due to thermal stress/fatigue?
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    I am about to tap the intake manifold next week. Anyone know how thick the plastic is? I am trying to figure out if I need to back the fitting with a nut of sorts, or if there is enough material to tap it and move on.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I was thinking farther is better to let the drop size reduce, but that's pure speculation. We'll see!
    This works as long as the airflow velocity is fairly high. Again, the droplets, no matter how small they are, are going to want to drop with gravity. If you are able to suck these droplets into the compressor before they fall 1-2"...then great. But the reality is that it won't happen....

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    What if you tapped right into the compressor housing LOL
    What direction would the nozzle be spraying in?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    Any thoughts on what happens at the point of your injection starting? Lets say you decide to start spray at 7psi, you been cruising along for a while and decides to floor it, your compressors are mighty warm already and then your colder than ambient small droplets of meth/water hits them. I am getting at what is the risk of cracks due to thermal stress/fatigue?
    You'd need a massive temperature differential for that to happen....think 1000 degrees....and aluminum can distribute heat pretty fast so I don't think it's an issue. If it was a cast iron compressor wheel....then one might consider the idea....

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I am about to tap the intake manifold next week. Anyone know how thick the plastic is? I am trying to figure out if I need to back the fitting with a nut of sorts, or if there is enough material to tap it and move on.
    BMW makes these things pretty thick; find a flat spot and go to town.
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    How are you guys routing the trunk line on an E92 when going interior?

    Right now I got my line under the trunk floor, but am wondering how it transitions from trunk to door sill. I have the seat bottom off and the drivers side seat folded down. Do I pop the side bolster off too or remove the vertical interior trunk panel on the drivers side? Once I get inside the cabin I think I got it until the door sill ends. At that point I assume I remove the plastic cover near the trunk button and tuck in there?

    I drilled the amp plate out and tucked both lines cleanly into it and down under to the floor (hope the line can take the amp heat...). I calculated the max air flow through the line I am using and figured it can only do about 0.05 ft^/s which would be way too slow if the tank was anything but completely full. For this reason I have gone with a slightly larger line and a check valve for the boost air side. This line is still only capable of about 0.1 ft^3/s. I am losing my progressive meth flow, but I think that is something I need to accept for the time being if I want to have decent response.

    Will be tapping the intake and laying electrical later this week.

    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    It looks to me that the nozzles are too far from the compressor wheel if you have them in the filters, and you might risk injecting the wanter onto the filter and not the wheel.

    My suggestion would be to have the nozzles as close to the compressor wheel as possible, between filter and compressor housing. That is how I have it on my twin turbo.
    1995 BMW M3GT nr:111/350 TwinTurbo and some other mods.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
    It looks to me that the nozzles are too far from the compressor wheel if you have them in the filters, and you might risk injecting the wanter onto the filter and not the wheel.

    My suggestion would be to have the nozzles as close to the compressor wheel as possible, between filter and compressor housing. That is how I have it on my twin turbo.
    I hear ya on concerns of the spray being too far. Not concerned about wetting the filter since the spray angle is tight. I will bench the system before running to confirm the filters don't get wet.

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